[Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Sergey Goldgaber]

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The Caml Humps are just a list of links.  There seems to be no real
archive of contributed OCaml code.  Because of this the community is
losing these contributions as linked web pages disappear (either
because of web-site reorganization, or because the people maintaining
those personal web sites have moved on to something else).

One example is Benoît de Boursetty's PNM library, which doesn't seem to
be at http://www.stud.enst.fr/~debourse/projects.html any longer, as
the Humps maintain.  This seems like a valuable library, of practical
use to me right now.  I could try to track down Benoît de Boursetty, or
ask about this particular library on this list, but that is not an
effective long-term solution for every missing package case.

There are also all sorts of other libraries and applications which are
far too advanced for me to make use of right now, but which I could see
myself using a year or two down the road.  But with the web in flux the
way it is, it is not wise to rely on any particular web page still
being there after any length of time.

I could go through and manually download every individual piece of
software, but apart from being extraordinarily tedious, I would loose
all of the Hump's wonderful organization and descriptions.

I think what would be great if all of these packages were available in
a centralized, mirrored repository available for download.  That way,
ideally, people would be able to get every available package and burn
it to CDROM, distributing the entire archive for posterity.

I know there has been talk of a CPAN-like service, and think that would
be great as well.  However, nothing so complex is needed for a simple
centralized archive.  And it is an archive that is needed more. 
Otherwise the community loses code.

I wish I had a server and bandwidth to donate, or I would just do this
myself.  As it is I'm making an appeal to the community for solutions. 
If there are no individuals or corporate entities in the OCaml
community who are willing/able to provide the required resources,
perhaps we could look at something like ibiblio http://ibiblio.org/ 
Does anyone have any experience with this service?


  --Sergey


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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Pierre Weis]

> The Caml Humps are just a list of links.  There seems to be no real
> archive of contributed OCaml code.  Because of this the community is
> losing these contributions as linked web pages disappear (either
> because of web-site reorganization, or because the people maintaining
> those personal web sites have moved on to something else).
[...]
> I know there has been talk of a CPAN-like service, and think that would
> be great as well.  However, nothing so complex is needed for a simple
> centralized archive.  And it is an archive that is needed more. 
> Otherwise the community loses code.
> 
> I wish I had a server and bandwidth to donate, or I would just do this
> myself.  As it is I'm making an appeal to the community for solutions. 
> If there are no individuals or corporate entities in the OCaml
> community who are willing/able to provide the required resources,
> perhaps we could look at something like ibiblio http://ibiblio.org/ 
> Does anyone have any experience with this service?
> 
> 
>   --Sergey

INRIA can donate a server and the associated bandwidth. The problem is
then to find people that take care of this archive, since INRIA cannot
donate the additional man power to set up and maintain it.

Is there any volunteers ?

Best regards,

Pierre Weis

INRIA, Projet Cristal, Pierre.Weis@inria.fr, http://pauillac.inria.fr/~weis/


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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Erik Arneson]

On 02 April 2003, Pierre Weis <pierre.weis@inria.fr> wrote:
> INRIA can donate a server and the associated bandwidth. The problem is
> then to find people that take care of this archive, since INRIA cannot
> donate the additional man power to set up and maintain it.
> 
> Is there any volunteers ?

If somebody else sets up and maintains the INRIA HUMPS, I will happily
host an automated mirror.

-- 
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[Caml-list] the Komprehensive Objective caml Archive Network?

[art yerkes]

Hello all,

I'm willing to put some time into maintaining such a thing.  I also work
actively on the SWIG project's Ocaml module.

Perhaps it will be possible to use ocamlfind as the basis for a coherent
(in the global sense) module set.  It's also feasible (disk space allowing)
to provide the whole archive ocamldoc tree available as HTML.  That would
make it easy to find out if an archive does what you want before downloading
it, and what the dependencies are.
-- 
`No, you don't understand,' the Knight said, looking a little vexed. 
`That's what the name is called. The name really is "The Aged Aged 
Man."'

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[Caml-list] Re: the Komprehensive Objective caml Archive Network?

[sylvain.le-gall]

art yerkes writes: 

> Hello all, 
> 
> I'm willing to put some time into maintaining such a thing.  I also work
> actively on the SWIG project's Ocaml module. 
> 
> Perhaps it will be possible to use ocamlfind as the basis for a coherent
> (in the global sense) module set.  It's also feasible (disk space allowing)
> to provide the whole archive ocamldoc tree available as HTML.  That would
> make it easy to find out if an archive does what you want before downloading
> it, and what the dependencies are.
> -- 
> `No, you don't understand,' the Knight said, looking a little vexed. 
> `That's what the name is called. The name really is "The Aged Aged 
> Man."' 
> 

Hello, 

Even if i am not from the inria, i agree with ocamlfind and odoc. It is two
great tools which simplify a lot ocaml developpement ( personnaly i need
to compile myself some source to produce ocaml documentation ). 

If it is possible, followinf should be mentioned in a document like
"requirement for a software to enter the archive" :
 - use and provide ocamlfind and META
 - can produce ocamldoc documentation 

Regard
Sylvain LE GALL 

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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 11:52:40PM +0200, Pierre Weis wrote:
> INRIA can donate a server and the associated bandwidth. The problem is
> then to find people that take care of this archive, since INRIA cannot
> donate the additional man power to set up and maintain it.
> 
> Is there any volunteers ?

Well, before volunteering I wonder if INRIA will accept Joe Random Ocaml
Developer as administrator or at least maintainer of such a project on
an INRIA host.

If the above is not a problem we can find not a single but a group of
interested people. I'm interested, but I've not enough time to handle
such a project alone.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli  --  Master in Computer Science @ Uni. Bologna, Italy
zack@{cs.unibo.it,debian.org,bononia.it}  -  http://www.bononia.it/zack/
"  I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not
sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!  " -- G.Romney

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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Alexander V. Voinov]

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Hi All,

Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

>On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 11:52:40PM +0200, Pierre Weis wrote:
>  
>
>>INRIA can donate a server and the associated bandwidth. The problem is
>>then to find people that take care of this archive, since INRIA cannot
>>donate the additional man power to set up and maintain it.
>>
>>Is there any volunteers ?
>>    
>>
>
>Well, before volunteering I wonder if INRIA will accept Joe Random Ocaml
>Developer as administrator or at least maintainer of such a project on
>an INRIA host.
>
There is a precedent: http://starship.python.net, where all the club 
members have a login. Originally you had to pay for this and the fee 
went to support the Python development, but now it just retains the 
existing logins.

Of course, some templates may be worked out to support a consistent 
style of package entries on the main page, like those Hump has now.

Alexander


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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Sergey Goldgaber]

--- Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@bononia.it> wrote:
>
> Well, before volunteering I wonder if INRIA will accept Joe Random
> Ocaml Developer as administrator or at least maintainer of such a
project
> on an INRIA host.
> 
> If the above is not a problem we can find not a single but a group of
> interested people. I'm interested, but I've not enough time to handle
> such a project alone.

If every developer could maintain archives of their own software on the
server then that would probably be ideal.

Alternatively, if the solution chosen requires a group of
administrators to maintain the archives then I have some spare time to
assist in this effort.

A seperate, but important issue is finding, installing and maintaining
server software and applications that will provide services such as:
authentication of the contributing developers or administrators,
archiving of old versions of the software, providing a searchable list
of the available software, allowing mirroring and backups.

I am guessing that what will be required, at minimum, will be a web
server, and probably a database, along with an application (possibly
just static html, or maybe something more) that integrates all of the
services noted above and/or any others that might be useful.

There are probably all sorts of turn-key solutions that do all of this,
but I am not of aware of any myself.

Are there any suggestions along these lines regarding what we can use?


  --Sergey


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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Sven Luther]

On Fri, Apr 04, 2003 at 11:50:30AM -0800, Alexander V. Voinov wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> 
> >On Wed, Apr 02, 2003 at 11:52:40PM +0200, Pierre Weis wrote:
> > 
> >
> >>INRIA can donate a server and the associated bandwidth. The problem is
> >>then to find people that take care of this archive, since INRIA cannot
> >>donate the additional man power to set up and maintain it.
> >>
> >>Is there any volunteers ?
> >>   
> >>
> >
> >Well, before volunteering I wonder if INRIA will accept Joe Random Ocaml
> >Developer as administrator or at least maintainer of such a project on
> >an INRIA host.
> >
> There is a precedent: http://starship.python.net, where all the club 
> members have a login. Originally you had to pay for this and the fee 
> went to support the Python development, but now it just retains the 
> existing logins.

Err, i think the issue is more about if INRIA trust you to have an
account inside their firewall or not. A security issue about trusting
Joe Random Ocaml Developer.

Friendly,

Sven Luther

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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Sergey Goldgaber]

--- Sven Luther <luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote:
> 
> Err, i think the issue is more about if INRIA trust you to have an
> account inside their firewall or not. A security issue about trusting
> Joe Random Ocaml Developer.

Well, obviously whoever hosts this will have to take such security
concerns in to account.  There are more and less secure ways of doing
this.  It's not an all or nothing proposition.


  --Sergey


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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Sergey Goldgaber]

--- Sven Luther <luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote:
> 
> Err, i think the issue is more about if INRIA trust you to have an
> account inside their firewall or not. A security issue about trusting
> Joe Random Ocaml Developer.

Well, obviously whoever hosts this will have to take such security
concerns in to account.  There are more and less secure ways of doing
this.  It's not an all or nothing proposition.


  --Sergey


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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Pierre Weis]

Hi All,

Thank you everybody for being interested at maintaining a standalone
set of Caml software for the communauty.

I'm afraid I will not be able to set up the thing and answer to
everybody before the end of my vacations (during the full next
week). I will tell you more the week after!

> Err, i think the issue is more about if INRIA trust you to have an
> account inside their firewall or not. A security issue about trusting
> Joe Random Ocaml Developer.
> 
> Friendly,
> 
> Sven Luther

INRIA is a strange and complex house: we may have a machine inside
INRIA with all the corresponding facilities (no power failures, good
connectivity, full automatic backup), while maintaining this machine
outside the INRIA firewall (so, there is no way for you to connect
from this machine to a machine inside the INRIA network (even if it is
50 cm away from the machine you are logged in!)). By the way, there is
no ``Joe Random Ocaml Developer'' here: we will give accounts to
selected people only (trusted people I would say).

I was thinking of something like that, experimenting with a machine
outside our firewall and running a strong and secure OS (FreeBSD ?) to
have a very low maintenance cost.

Do you think this would be a reasonable solution ? Are there problems
I do not imagine ?

All the best,

Pierre Weis

INRIA, Projet Cristal, Pierre.Weis@inria.fr, http://pauillac.inria.fr/~weis/


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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Maxence Guesdon]

Hello,

> There is a precedent: http://starship.python.net, where all the club 
> members have a login. Originally you had to pay for this and the fee 
> went to support the Python development, but now it just retains the 
> existing logins.
> 
> Of course, some templates may be worked out to support a consistent 
> style of package entries on the main page, like those Hump has now.

I was thinking about setting up a kind of "wiki humps", even before this
discussion, since I'm developing a tool to quickly develop wikis
(with more structure than just pages, that is "elements" with various
attributes, editable or not depending on who's connected and so on).

This way, each contributor updates information about his contribs.

The "wiki humps" would basically contain the same information as
the current humps, but could then be enhanced to handle a repository
of files.

Upload of OCamldoc-generated documentation could also be supported 
to give an overview of each library's interface, and search through 
all interfaces... Just an idea.

-- 
Maxence Guesdon

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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Vitaly Lugovsky]

On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, Sven Luther wrote:

> Err, i think the issue is more about if INRIA trust you to
> have an
> account inside their firewall or not. A security issue about
> trusting
> Joe Random Ocaml Developer.

 Since Sourceforge and GNU Savannah trusts their users about
shell accounts, why INRIA will not?

btw., m.b. there's a reason just to create an SF or Savannah
OCaml Foundry? No need in a dedicated server...


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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Sat, Apr 05, 2003 at 11:06:28PM +0200, Pierre Weis wrote:
> 50 cm away from the machine you are logged in!)). By the way, there is
> no ``Joe Random Ocaml Developer'' here: we will give accounts to
> selected people only (trusted people I would say).

Thanks for the clear explanation. The remaining quid is to better define
the concept of "trusted people" :)

Here at university of Bologna we are used to give "guest" accounts to
people that accept to subscribe an "assumption of responsibilities" (I
hope this is a correct english translation) for action performed with
their guest account. Do you use a similar approach at INRIA?

> Do you think this would be a reasonable solution ? Are there problems
> I do not imagine ?

No, it seems a reasonable given that "trusted people" are enough to
maintain the project.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli  --  Master in Computer Science @ Uni. Bologna, Italy
zack@{cs.unibo.it,debian.org,bononia.it}  -  http://www.bononia.it/zack/
"  I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not
sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!  " -- G.Romney

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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Sergey Goldgaber]

--- Vitaly Lugovsky <vsl@ontil.ihep.su> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, Sven Luther wrote:
> 
> btw., m.b. there's a reason just to create an SF or Savannah
> OCaml Foundry? No need in a dedicated server...

I believe both SourceForge and Savannah require that the projects they
host all be Open Source.

Personally, I release software under the Hacktivismo License (
http://hacktivismo.com/hessla.html ) which supports human rights and
prohibits the software from being used to spy on people, etc.  I have
an additional provision that my software may not be used to wage or
support war, by the military, or by military contractors.

While I distribute my software with source code, and allow most anyone
to copy and modify it at will and for free, it is still not technically
"Open Source", as it does not allow people to use it to wage war,
etc...  So my projects, for example, could not be hosted on Savannah or
SF.

I am not sure what the status of the rest of the software created for
OCaml is, but I would bet that at least some of it does not strictly
conform to the definition of Open Source, and would therefore fall in
the same boat.


  --Sergey


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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Fred Yankowski]

On Sat, Apr 05, 2003 at 11:06:28PM +0200, Pierre Weis wrote:
> I was thinking of something like that, experimenting with a machine
> outside our firewall and running a strong and secure OS (FreeBSD ?) to
> have a very low maintenance cost.

You might consider using User Mode Linux to create a sandboxed
instance of Linux to hold whatever server software is needed.  That
way you can build up a tightly restricted system, perhaps even sharing
an outside-the-firewall server with other INRIA applications.

-- 
Fred Yankowski      fred@ontosys.com           tel: +1.630.879.1312
OntoSys, Inc	    PGP keyID: 7B449345        fax: +1.630.879.1370
www.ontosys.com     38W242 Deerpath Rd, Batavia, IL 60510-9461, USA

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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Jacques Garrigue]

From: Fred Yankowski <fred@ontosys.com>
> On Sat, Apr 05, 2003 at 11:06:28PM +0200, Pierre Weis wrote:
> > I was thinking of something like that, experimenting with a machine
> > outside our firewall and running a strong and secure OS (FreeBSD ?) to
> > have a very low maintenance cost.
> 
> You might consider using User Mode Linux to create a sandboxed
> instance of Linux to hold whatever server software is needed.  That
> way you can build up a tightly restricted system, perhaps even sharing
> an outside-the-firewall server with other INRIA applications.

The jail(8) facility in FreeBSD allows that: you may create a virtual
machine inside a server, which is completely isolated from everything
else inside the host machine. Some ISPs are using it to provide root
accounts.
Still, I expect that setting up a really secure virtual machine is far
from trivial: you get just the same problems as with a real machine.

By the way, I recall somebody talking about setting up a cvs server
written in ocaml (safe and fast code) inside a FreeBSD jail to provide
maximum security.  I don't know how far that project went. Maybe he is
reading this list and can provide more details.

Jacques Garrigue

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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Ed L Cashin]

Jacques Garrigue <garrigue@kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp> writes:

...
> The jail(8) facility in FreeBSD allows that: you may create a virtual
> machine inside a server, which is completely isolated from everything
> else inside the host machine. Some ISPs are using it to provide root
> accounts.
> Still, I expect that setting up a really secure virtual machine is far
> from trivial: you get just the same problems as with a real machine.

FreeBSD goes a long way, though, toward "real" security.  Another big
help is the kernel securelevels feature:

  http://people.freebsd.org/~jkb/howto.html#sl

With this feature, you can get a server in a state where no modules
may be loaded into the kernel and certain parts of the file system are
not writable at all -- having root isn't enough.  

If you can trust the kernel and some files to be secure, then you have
a pretty good foundation for the other steps you take.

-- 
--Ed L Cashin            |   PGP public key:
  ecashin@uga.edu        |   http://noserose.net/e/pgp/

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Re: [Caml-list] Our shrinking Humps

[Martin Weber]

(... linux, linux! ...)
(... freebsd, freebsd! ...)
(... openbsd, openbsd! ...)
(... solaris, solaris! ...)

You/We should talk about the hows of an open editable hump (wiki
vs. maintained projects with fixed admins etc) first, the holy
OS wars can wait, no ? And After all, we should leave the decision
which OS to deploy to the INRIA. So we should get to the content
(still leaving out package systems (pkgsrc! ports! rpm! deb!))
management, and how THAT should happen. Getting lost in holy wars
doesn't add to productivity.


I myself favour a Wiki based systems with restrictions based on
the uploading file(s) part, i.e. only a project creator (he who
scribeth the application/library) should be able to alter the
file, documentation, other cruft required / added should be
editable by anyone, especially with comments or examples of use,
adding/maintaining links to related libs/software etc., and have
one big-bad-admin who watches the wiki and takes care no /.-jokers
delete pages of things they don't like :)

-Martin

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