* When is Fam(E) a topos? @ 2017-04-24 9:57 Peter Johnstone 0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread From: Peter Johnstone @ 2017-04-24 9:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Categories mailing list Others may have noticed a slight gap in what I wrote on Saturday, concerning the difference between toposes with set-indexed copowers and those with coproducts. If E has copowers then the functor Delta exists, but to prove that Fam(E) is equivalent to the topos obtained by glueing along it you need arbitrary coproducts. In fact these are necessary for Fam(E) to be cartesian closed; I now have a proof of this, but it's a bit too complicated to write out in ASCII. I plan to write it up as a short paper. Peter Johnstone [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* when is Fam (E) a topos?
@ 2017-04-19 9:23 Thomas Streicher
2017-04-21 9:01 ` Thomas Streicher
[not found] ` <alpine.DEB.2.10.1704221719340.10704@siskin.dpmms.cam.ac.uk>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: Thomas Streicher @ 2017-04-19 9:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: categories
A couple of days ago I made the wrong claim that
> If BB is a topos and P : XX -> BB is a fibration then P is a fibration
> of toposes iff XX is a topos and P is a logical functor.
The following shows how wrong this claim is.
Let E be a topos then Fam(E) -> Set is certainly a fibered topos
but by Th.6.2.3 of Pieter Hofstra's Thesis Fam(E) is a topos iff E is
an atomic category (in the sense of Johnstone's 1977 book on Topos Theory,
exercise 12 on p. 257). But in atomic categories all morphisms are epic
and thus Fam(E) is a topos only if E is trivial.
Thus, for the motivating examples of fibred toposes the total category
is a topos only in the trivial case!
Thomas
[For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: when is Fam (E) a topos? 2017-04-19 9:23 when is Fam (E) " Thomas Streicher @ 2017-04-21 9:01 ` Thomas Streicher 2017-04-22 16:35 ` Peter Johnstone [not found] ` <alpine.DEB.2.10.1704221719340.10704@siskin.dpmms.cam.ac.uk> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread From: Thomas Streicher @ 2017-04-21 9:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: categories > Let E be a topos then Fam(E) -> Set is certainly a fibered topos > but by Th.6.2.3 of Pieter Hofstra's Thesis Fam(E) is a topos iff E is > an atomic category (in the sense of Johnstone's 1977 book on Topos Theory, > exercise 12 on p. 257). But in atomic categories all morphisms are epic > and thus Fam(E) is a topos only if E is trivial. Alas, there is a flaw in Pieter's Th.6.2.3 (which certainly is not crucial for the main results of his otherwise very nice Thesis). Actually, it can be seen quite easily: if E is a cocomplete topos then Fam(E) is equivalent to the glueing of Delta : Set -> E which is known to be a topos. So it seems to be open to characterize those toposes E for which Fam(E) is a topos. In particular, I don't know the answer for E the free topos (with nno) or a realizability topos. In the latter case we know that glueing of Nabla (right adjoint to Gamma) is a topos but it's different from Fam(E). I'd be grateful about any suggestions even for these particular cases! Thomas [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: when is Fam (E) a topos? 2017-04-21 9:01 ` Thomas Streicher @ 2017-04-22 16:35 ` Peter Johnstone 0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread From: Peter Johnstone @ 2017-04-22 16:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Thomas Streicher; +Cc: categories I was surprised by Thomas's previous post, because I knew that if E has set-indexed copowers then Fam(E) can be identified with the glueing of Delta, and is thus a topos. (I haven't seen Pieter Hofstra's thesis, so I wasn't aware that he had made a different claim.) In fact set-indexed copowers in E (a slightly weaker condition than cocompleteness, cf. A2.1.7 in the Elephant) is necessary as well as sufficient for Fam(E) to be a topos. Here's a proof: Let me write objects of Fam(E) in the form (I, (A_i | i \in I)) where I is a set and the A_i are objects of E. Noting that the forgetful functor sending (I,(A_i)) to I is represented by the object (1,(0)) where 0 is the initial object of E, it's easy to see that if Fam(E) is cartesian closed then objects of the form (1,(A)) form an exponential ideal, i.e. any exponential (1,(A))^(I,(B_i)) is of the form (1,(C)). In particular, if the exponential (1,(A))^(I,(1 | i \in I)) exists, it is of the form (1,(C)) where C is an I-fold power of A in E. So E has arbitrary set-indexed powers; but E^op is monadic over E, so it also has set-indexed powers, i.e. E has set-indexed copowers. Peter Johnstone On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, Thomas Streicher wrote: >> Let E be a topos then Fam(E) -> Set is certainly a fibered topos >> but by Th.6.2.3 of Pieter Hofstra's Thesis Fam(E) is a topos iff E is >> an atomic category (in the sense of Johnstone's 1977 book on Topos Theory, >> exercise 12 on p. 257). But in atomic categories all morphisms are epic >> and thus Fam(E) is a topos only if E is trivial. > > Alas, there is a flaw in Pieter's Th.6.2.3 (which certainly is not > crucial for the main results of his otherwise very nice Thesis). > Actually, it can be seen quite easily: if E is a cocomplete topos then > Fam(E) is equivalent to the glueing of Delta : Set -> E which is known > to be a topos. > > So it seems to be open to characterize those toposes E for which > Fam(E) is a topos. In particular, I don't know the answer for E the > free topos (with nno) or a realizability topos. In the latter case we > know that glueing of Nabla (right adjoint to Gamma) is a topos but > it's different from Fam(E). > > I'd be grateful about any suggestions even for these particular cases! > > Thomas > > [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1704221719340.10704@siskin.dpmms.cam.ac.uk>]
* Re: when is Fam (E) a topos? [not found] ` <alpine.DEB.2.10.1704221719340.10704@siskin.dpmms.cam.ac.uk> @ 2017-04-23 8:52 ` Thomas Streicher 0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread From: Thomas Streicher @ 2017-04-23 8:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Peter Johnstone; +Cc: categories Peter's argument also shows that a topos E has copowers of 1 already if Fam(E) is cartesian closed. Thus, we have also examples of fibrations of ccc's over a topos whose total category is not even cc. Thomas [For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2017-04-24 9:57 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 5+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2017-04-24 9:57 When is Fam(E) a topos? Peter Johnstone -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below -- 2017-04-19 9:23 when is Fam (E) " Thomas Streicher 2017-04-21 9:01 ` Thomas Streicher 2017-04-22 16:35 ` Peter Johnstone [not found] ` <alpine.DEB.2.10.1704221719340.10704@siskin.dpmms.cam.ac.uk> 2017-04-23 8:52 ` Thomas Streicher
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