* [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature [not found] ` <175409f6-af94-601e-3db3-a5af5d7f64d0@gmail.com> @ 2020-11-06 15:53 ` clemc 2020-11-06 19:22 ` tytso 2020-11-06 22:58 ` grog [not found] ` <202011061546.0A6Fkv3D034443@elf.torek.net> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: clemc @ 2020-11-06 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Moving to COFF. below. On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 10:40 AM Will Senn <will.senn at gmail.com> wrote: > Clem, > > It figures. I should have known there was a reason for the shorter lines > other than display. Conventions are sticky and there appears to be a > generation gap. I use single spaces between sentences, but my ancestors > used 2... who knows why? :). > You never use a real typewriter. Double-space allows you to edit (physically) the document if need be. This was how I did everything before I had easy computer access. I went to college with an electric typewriter and all my papers were done on it in the fall of my freshman year (until I got access to UNIX). I did have an CS account for the PDP-10 and they had the XGP, but using it for something like your papers was somewhat frowned upon. However, the UNIX boxes we often bought 'daisy wheel' typewriters that had RS-232C interfaces. Using nroff, I could then do my papers and run it off in the admin's desk at night. Clem -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20201106/af8ed432/attachment.htm> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature 2020-11-06 15:53 ` [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature clemc @ 2020-11-06 19:22 ` tytso 2020-11-06 19:24 ` clemc 2020-11-06 22:58 ` grog 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: tytso @ 2020-11-06 19:22 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, Nov 06, 2020 at 10:53:59AM -0500, Clem Cole wrote: > > I went to college with an electric typewriter and all my papers were done > on it in the fall of my freshman year (until I got access to UNIX). I did > have an CS account for the PDP-10 and they had the XGP, but using it for > something like your papers was somewhat frowned upon. However, the UNIX > boxes we often bought 'daisy wheel' typewriters that had RS-232C > interfaces. Using nroff, I could then do my papers and run it off in the > admin's desk at night. When I was in high school, we had a box that could be fitted over an Olivetti electric typewriter's keyboard, which had solenoids to "type". The other end had a parallel port and it was connected to a Heathkit H-89 CP/M system, and so rough drafts would be sent to the dot matrix printer, but for the final copy, it could look like it came out of a typewriter --- because technically, it did. :-) - Ted ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature 2020-11-06 19:22 ` tytso @ 2020-11-06 19:24 ` clemc 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: clemc @ 2020-11-06 19:24 UTC (permalink / raw) Outstanding hack! On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 2:22 PM Theodore Y. Ts'o <tytso at mit.edu> wrote: > On Fri, Nov 06, 2020 at 10:53:59AM -0500, Clem Cole wrote: > > > > I went to college with an electric typewriter and all my papers were done > > on it in the fall of my freshman year (until I got access to UNIX). I > did > > have an CS account for the PDP-10 and they had the XGP, but using it for > > something like your papers was somewhat frowned upon. However, the > UNIX > > boxes we often bought 'daisy wheel' typewriters that had RS-232C > > interfaces. Using nroff, I could then do my papers and run it off in the > > admin's desk at night. > > When I was in high school, we had a box that could be fitted over an > Olivetti electric typewriter's keyboard, which had solenoids to > "type". The other end had a parallel port and it was connected to a > Heathkit H-89 CP/M system, and so rough drafts would be sent to the > dot matrix printer, but for the final copy, it could look like it came > out of a typewriter --- because technically, it did. :-) > > - Ted > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20201106/cb105a93/attachment.htm> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature 2020-11-06 15:53 ` [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature clemc 2020-11-06 19:22 ` tytso @ 2020-11-06 22:58 ` grog 2020-11-07 21:04 ` clemc 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: grog @ 2020-11-06 22:58 UTC (permalink / raw) On Friday, 6 November 2020 at 10:53:59 -0500, Clem Cole wrote: > However, the UNIX boxes we often bought 'daisy wheel' typewriters > that had RS-232C interfaces. Using nroff, I could then do my papers > and run it off in the admin's desk at night. My memory is hazy, but I thought that the daisy wheel printers I knew (Qume Sprint\5) also had proportional spacing. I ran into significant problems with early MS-DOS based formatting software because it made (frequently incorrect) assumptions about character widths. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20201107/7b932d2c/attachment.sig> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature 2020-11-06 22:58 ` grog @ 2020-11-07 21:04 ` clemc 2020-11-07 23:05 ` dave 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: clemc @ 2020-11-07 21:04 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 5:58 PM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote: > My memory is hazy, but I thought that the daisy wheel printers I knew > (Qume Sprint\5) also had proportional spacing. I never used that brand. Xerox (which was the main USA supplier as a pure typewriter to compete with IBM's Selectric 'ball' units) were definitely fixed width. People started to hack the Xerox units to add access to serial interface and Xerox made it standard or maybe an option as somepoint. IIRC it was somebody like Ollivetti that originally did the daisywheel and Xerox licensed it and they definitely were the primary player here. But by the late 70s, early 80's, there were a number of manufacturers of them. My memory was with the maybe circa 74/75 timeframe, Xerox unit (but it might have been one of the others) was that the original unit had a serial port for diagnostics/maintenance which allowed access to the on-board microprocessor (which might have been a 4-bit TI chip IIRC - same used in some early 'Simon' games). Somebody figured out how to hack it and the schematics/description was available. I remember we hacked one of the units in the EE dept. But by the late 1970's the serial interface was a first class part of the unit, which made them different from IBM Selectrics which did not have an easy to access serial interface, even though IBM used the printer mechanism from the Selectric as the guts of the console for the 360 which I think was called a 2150 but the bits in my brain on that are extremely stale. > I ran into significant > problems with early MS-DOS based formatting software because it made > (frequently incorrect) assumptions about character widths. > > Greg > -- > Sent from my desktop computer. > Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. > See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20201107/fe0e2437/attachment.htm> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature 2020-11-07 21:04 ` clemc @ 2020-11-07 23:05 ` dave 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: dave @ 2020-11-07 23:05 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 335 bytes --] On Sat, 7 Nov 2020, Clem Cole wrote: > > My memory is hazy, but I thought that the daisy wheel printers I knew > > (Qume Sprint\5) also had proportional spacing. > > I never used that brand. [...] The daisywheel that I used (Fujitsu?) definitely was fixed-width (Courier); I used it a lot with WordStar on CP/M. -- Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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* [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature [not found] ` <202011061546.0A6Fkv3D034443@elf.torek.net> @ 2020-11-06 16:22 ` clemc 2020-11-06 18:12 ` torek 2020-11-07 2:52 ` cym224 [not found] ` <20201106225422.GD99027@eureka.lemis.com> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: clemc @ 2020-11-06 16:22 UTC (permalink / raw) Exactly -- just re-read Will's question. 2 spaces after punctuation is a fix-size typeface solution to the 1.5 typographer layout. I was referring to why typed papers were traditionally double spaced between the lines. On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 11:02 AM Chris Torek <torek at elf.torek.net> wrote: > >I use single spaces between sentences, but my ancestors > >used 2... who knows why? :). > > Typewriters. > > In typesetting, especially when doing right-margin justification, > we have "stretchy spaces" between words. The space after end-of- > sentence punctuation marks is supposed to be about 50% larger than > the width of the between-words spaces, and if the word spaces get > stretched, so should the end-of-sentence space. Note that this is > all in the variable-pitch font world. > > Since typewriters are fixed-pitch, the way to emulate the > 1.5-space-wide gap is to expand it to 2. > > Chris > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20201106/81529406/attachment.htm> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature 2020-11-06 16:22 ` clemc @ 2020-11-06 18:12 ` torek 2020-11-07 2:52 ` cym224 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: torek @ 2020-11-06 18:12 UTC (permalink / raw) >I was referring to why typed papers were traditionally double spaced >between the lines. (this seems to have moved to coff@, which I think I am not on) Ah, the traditional reason for doubling the "leading" (not that there's any actual chemical-element-Pb lead in typewriting) is for copy-editing purposes. I'm not sure if traditional typesetting drafts had increased leading like this. Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature 2020-11-06 16:22 ` clemc 2020-11-06 18:12 ` torek @ 2020-11-07 2:52 ` cym224 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: cym224 @ 2020-11-07 2:52 UTC (permalink / raw) On 11/06/20 11:22, Clem Cole wrote: > Exactly -- just re-read Will's question. 2 spaces after punctuation > is a fix-size typeface solution to the 1.5 typographer layout. Is it not an m-space after a full-stop? (Though Brinhurst eschewed this in the fourth edition.) > I was referring to why typed papers were traditionally double spaced > between the lines. I was advised to this with drafts for copy-editing but legal documents are always double-spaced lines (and I know not why). N. > On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 11:02 AM Chris Torek <torek at elf.torek.net > <mailto:torek at elf.torek.net>> wrote: > > >I use single spaces between sentences, but my ancestors > >used 2... who knows why? :). > > Typewriters. > > In typesetting, especially when doing right-margin justification, > we have "stretchy spaces" between words. The space after end-of- > sentence punctuation marks is supposed to be about 50% larger than > the width of the between-words spaces, and if the word spaces get > stretched, so should the end-of-sentence space. Note that this is > all in the variable-pitch font world. > > Since typewriters are fixed-pitch, the way to emulate the > 1.5-space-wide gap is to expand it to 2. > > Chris > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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* [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature [not found] ` <20201106232901.AkY2I%steffen@sdaoden.eu> @ 2020-11-07 4:22 ` grog 2020-11-07 20:31 ` steffen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: grog @ 2020-11-07 4:22 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1883 bytes --] [Coff, etc] On Saturday, 7 November 2020 at 0:29:01 +0100, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote in > <20201106225422.GD99027 at eureka.lemis.com>: >> On Friday, 6 November 2020 at 7:46:57 -0800, Chris Torek wrote: >>> In typesetting, especially when doing right-margin justification, >>> we have "stretchy spaces" between words. The space after end-of- >>> sentence punctuation marks is supposed to be about 50% larger than >>> the width of the between-words spaces, and if the word spaces get >>> stretched, so should the end-of-sentence space. >> >> FWIW, this is the US convention. Other countries have different >> conventions. My Ausinfo style manual states >> >> There is no need to increase the amount of punctuation ... at the >> end of a sentence. >> >> I believe that this also holds for Germany. I'm not sure that the UK >> didn't have different rules again. > > Yes, the DUDEN of Germany says for typewriters that the punctuation > characters period, comma, semicolon, colon, question- and > exclamation mark are added without separating whitespace. The next > word follows after a space ("Leerschritt", "void step"). Thanks for the confirmation. Where did you find that? I checked the yellow Duden (âRichtlinien für den Schriftsatzâ) before sending my previous message, but I couldn't find anything useful. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20201107/5686d130/attachment.sig> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature 2020-11-07 4:22 ` grog @ 2020-11-07 20:31 ` steffen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: steffen @ 2020-11-07 20:31 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2550 bytes --] Hello and good evening. Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote in <20201107042249.GG99027 at eureka.lemis.com>: |[Coff, etc] I tend to hang in compose mode so long that i miss such switches at first. |On Saturday, 7 November 2020 at 0:29:01 +0100, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: |> Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote in |> <20201106225422.GD99027 at eureka.lemis.com>: |>> On Friday, 6 November 2020 at 7:46:57 -0800, Chris Torek wrote: |>>> In typesetting, especially when doing right-margin justification, |>>> we have "stretchy spaces" between words. The space after end-of- |>>> sentence punctuation marks is supposed to be about 50% larger than |>>> the width of the between-words spaces, and if the word spaces get |>>> stretched, so should the end-of-sentence space. |>> |>> FWIW, this is the US convention. Other countries have different |>> conventions. My Ausinfo style manual states |>> |>> There is no need to increase the amount of punctuation ... at the |>> end of a sentence. |>> |>> I believe that this also holds for Germany. I'm not sure that the UK |>> didn't have different rules again. | |> Yes, the DUDEN of Germany says for typewriters that the punctuation |> characters period, comma, semicolon, colon, question- and |> exclamation mark are added without separating whitespace. The next |> word follows after a space ("Leerschritt", "void step"). | |Thanks for the confirmation. Where did you find that? I checked the |yellow Duden (â␦␦Richtlinien für den Schriftsatzâ␦␦) before sending my |previous message, but I couldn't find anything useful. (The charset errors were already in.) Well yes, i looked first, it has been a very long time since i only follow my gut, if it does not come naturally leave it. The next chapter it is, »Hinweise für das Maschinenschreiben« ("Advices for typewriting"). (For handwriting hope is lost anyway, noone can read that. Even though one could find philosophic background in good handwriting style, but i personally was touched by the Japanese, Chinese etc., also Arabic way of doing things already so young, western style has a hard time against calligraphie that is to say.) But mind you, reassuring that old typewriters really placed the mentioned punctuation characters left in their box i even found a bug in mutool! (Ghostscript mupdf issue 703092.) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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* [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature [not found] ` <3c54b19d-e604-68eb-2b4b-0b65e9cfb896@earthlink.net> @ 2020-11-06 17:56 ` clemc 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: clemc @ 2020-11-06 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1829 bytes --] I'd be curious to hear from the folks a few years older than I (I started in the later 60s with the GE-635), but my own experiences of having lived through some of it, I personally think it was more to do with all of the systems of the time switching from cards to the Model 28 and later the 33 then Unix or AT&T. Unix was just one of the systems that we used at the time of the transition from cards. But the other timesharing systems of those days began to transition to the tty's requirements. On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 12:27 PM Stephen Clark <sclark46 at earthlink.net> wrote: > On 11/6/20 12:13 PM, Adam Thornton wrote: > > I’m going to chime in on pro-80-columns here, because with the text a > comfortable size to read (although this is getting less true as my eyes > age), I can read an entire 80-column line without having to sweep my eyes > back and forth. > > > > I can’t, and never could, do that at 132. > > > > As a consequence, I read much, much faster with 80-column-ish text > blocks. > > > > I also think there is something to the “UNIX is verbal” and “UNIX nerds > tend to be polyglots often with a surprising amount of liberal arts > background of one kind or another,” argument. That may, however, merely be > confirmation bias. > > > > Adam > May have had to do with the first terminal commonly used with UNIX. > > The Model 33 printed on 8.5-inch (220 mm) wide paper, supplied on > continuous > 5-inch (130 mm) diameter rolls and fed via friction (instead of, e.g., > tractor > feed). It printed at a fixed 10 characters per inch, and supported > 74-character > lines,[13] although 72 characters is often commonly stated. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20201106/d131a070/attachment.htm> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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* [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature [not found] ` <202011061519.0A6FJOAx034308@elf.torek.net> @ 2020-11-06 23:08 ` grog 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: grog @ 2020-11-06 23:08 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1621 bytes --] [Following clemc's example and moving to COFF] On Friday, 6 November 2020 at 7:19:24 -0800, Chris Torek wrote: >> I'm lazy. > > I am too, but I still use a big screen: I just fit a lot of smaller > windows in it. Agreed. There's a second issue here: for reading text, 70 to 80 n widths is optimal. For reading computer output, it should be much wider. I've compromised by fitting two 120 character wide xterms on my monitors, left and right. I still display only 70-80 characters for text. > I'd like to have a literal wall screen, especially if I'm in an > interior, windowless (as in physical glass windows) room, so that > part of the wall could be a "window" showing a view "outside" (real > time, or the ocean, or whatever) and other parts of the wall could > be the text I'm working on/with, etc. The issue there is perspective. I could do that (modulo cost) in my office, but I'd have a horizontal angle of about 90°, and that's uncomfortable. > (But I'll make do with these 27" 4k displays. :-) ) Yes, that's about the widest I find comfortable, and it took me a while to adapt. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20201107/7a2cfcfb/attachment.sig> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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* [COFF] [TUHS] The Elements Of Style: UNIX As Literature [not found] ` <20201106222302.GG26411@mcvoy.com> @ 2020-11-07 0:16 ` dave 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: dave @ 2020-11-07 0:16 UTC (permalink / raw) [ Moving to COFF (if your MUA respects "Reply-To:") ] On Fri, 6 Nov 2020, Larry McVoy wrote: > But I'm pretty old school, I write in C, I debug a lot with printf and > asserts, I'm kind of a dinosaur. You've never experienced the joy of having your code suddenly working when inserting printf() statements? Oh dear; time to break out GDB... -- Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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