[COFF] Re: UNIX and its users - new or old

[Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com>]

On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 11:40 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> Dan, I suspect that we are more in agreement than you might recognize.   Your Guide vs. Guild is spot on.  I don't have a problem asking questions, and as you know, I answer many newbie questions WRT SIMH, PiDP-x, and the like, as well as ask questions about stuff I am not familiar with.

Indeed! And I apologize if it came across as if I were directing any
criticism at you (or anyone else on this list); that wasn't my
intention at all. Really, I only wanted to point out a subtlety in
what (I think) G. Branden was saying that I thought was
(inadvertently) overlooked.

> I have had an issue with a questioneer when the reply to the question is: "Here is how to learn the answer " (i.e., teach the questioneer how to find the solution), but if said party is unwilling to do the background work (or the suggested work from the answer) - but just wants to be spoon-fed for that particular issue so they can move on, instead of learning how to solve it and hopefully the next issue themselves.

I have a problem with this, too, but I think that's a bit orthogonal
to what was under discussion. Of course, in any of these interactions,
one hopes that the other party actually wants to learn and is willing
to put in the effort!

> Someone asking a question is fine with me.   And answer from me, or you may offer a small reminder of here is how to learn.   Asking -- "Folks, I can't be the first person that ran into this ... what can I read'/where can I learn/is there a tutorial/book, etc. that explains/has an example on how to do X" is a perfectly fine question (we get them on simh all the time as an example).   Even "I'm stuck, and I'm getting this result when I try ..."   So how you ask your question helps, of course, that is, please try to demonstrate that you have done some work already but are currently running into a dead end.

Absolutely! I'm sure we have all run into the issue of, "I've got a
problem and simply don't know where to start: what's your advice?"
before and I try (and, I admit, sometimes fail) at being receptive to
that for others as well. It can be hard to ask, because it can feel
embarrassing, but we've all been there before.

> That said, as you point out, how you answer is just as important.   RTFM or see-figure-one are not ok answers - tempting as they may seem to be.   But I think it is ok to say: "If you look here ... read this book/document, you should be able to figure it out"  is a fair reply and not acting like the "Guild" -- that, to me, is guiding.    But if the same user just asked the same question on a different list when they were pointed to on how to find that answer, that is not the proper answer.  The trick for the OP is to try to do your homework and show how/why you are stuck - what don't you understand - so you can be guided and demonstrate you actually want to learn.

Absolutely.

> WRT to respect each other and look at each other as peers.  Amen.

Indeed. And I'd like to reiterate that I generally feel like this list
and this community is very good at that.

However, the charlatan effect with the Martins, Holubs, Jeffries, etc,
of the world is very real. Curiously, Holub is listed as a technical
reviewer on K&R2! (No idea how that happened....)

> For all my joking, I think it's great that you, Branden, et al. have taken the reins from folks like me and are keeping alive the ideas and techniques we started years before. I thank you both (and the others out there I have not directly recognized) for your efforts, and I think you two both do learn and look to lists like COFF and TUHS as amazing resources where you can both learn and contribute (as a peer).  Note I learn from both lists all the time.   But I do reserve the right to sometimes ask as a master, passing on knowledge (like why ignoring/denigrating Fortran is at your peril).  I did try to do it humorously, and I'm even happier that Branden caught my probably bad/poor taste - Kung Fu joke.

That's really kind of you to say, Clem. Honestly, I didn't catch that
it was a weed joke (despite "weedhopper" literally containing the word
"weed") until G. Branden pointed it out. I guess that says something
about the kinda rock I live under these days....

        - Dan C.