[COFF] [Simh] Of DEC and cards

[COFF] [Simh] Of DEC and cards

[jnc]

    > From: Clem Cole

    > I just don't remember seeing actual card readers or punches on the
    > PDP-11s

I'm not sure DEC _had_ a card punch for the PDP11's. Readers, yes, the CR11:

  https://gunkies.org/wiki/CR11_Card_Readers

but I don't think they had a punch (although there was one for the PDP-10
family, the CP10).

I think the CR11 must have been _relatively_ common, based on how many
readers and CR11 controller cards survive. Maybe not in computer science
installations, though... :-)

	Noel

[COFF] [Simh] Of DEC and cards

[litt]

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On 13-Feb-20 14:57, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: Clem Cole
>
>     > I just don't remember seeing actual card readers or punches on the
>     > PDP-11s
>
> I'm not sure DEC _had_ a card punch for the PDP11's. Readers, yes, the CR11:
>
>   https://gunkies.org/wiki/CR11_Card_Readers
>
> but I don't think they had a punch (although there was one for the PDP-10
> family, the CP10).
>
> I think the CR11 must have been _relatively_ common, based on how many
> readers and CR11 controller cards survive. Maybe not in computer science
> installations, though... :-)
>
> 	Noel
Not common, but yes:

CP11-UP Punch interface for Univac 1710 Card RDR/PUNCH

Before anyone asks, there were also:

CP08-(N,P) (CSS) Data Products Speedpuch 120 100 CPM Punch and controller

CP10-(A,B) MD6011 300 CPM CARD PUNCH & Controller (60,50 Hz)

CP15-(A,B) Ditto for the -15

and

CP20-E (The CP10 for orange boxes)

There were a few other part numbers, especially for the 10/20, which
included various mechanical options - e.g. racks for the controllers vs.
just the controller, colors, etc.  What's listed are the main models for
each family.

The CP01-(A,B) "Documation LC15 Model 2 Card Puhcn, 80 Col, 100CPM,
RS322 interfaces, ASCII or Imaged mode 100-9600 BAUD

Not sure what platforms used the CP01...


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[COFF] [Simh] Of DEC and cards

[brad]

jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) writes:

>     > From: Clem Cole
>
>     > I just don't remember seeing actual card readers or punches on the
>     > PDP-11s
>
> I'm not sure DEC _had_ a card punch for the PDP11's. Readers, yes, the CR11:
>
>   https://gunkies.org/wiki/CR11_Card_Readers
>
> but I don't think they had a punch (although there was one for the PDP-10
> family, the CP10).
>
> I think the CR11 must have been _relatively_ common, based on how many
> readers and CR11 controller cards survive. Maybe not in computer science
> installations, though... :-)
>
> 	Noel
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff



So...  in the early 1990s I was at a particular small university in Ohio
that had one of the last PDP11/70 running, I believe, RSTS/E in the
state of Ohio (or at least that is what the rumors were and what the
hardware support guy said once).  While I honestly don't remember what
it was used for that PDP11 had a card reader for sure, and something or
other had to be doing the punching (I think I remember watching cards
get run though it once or twice).  I very much suspect that it was the
PDP11 doing the punching, as nothing else at the university could have
done it, unless someone was punching them by hand.  Along with the PDP11
the computer room had a Data General MV10000 and a DG MV4000 neither of
which dealt with cards.  The PDP11/70 was used for the university
administration systems and activities.

I could probably find out how it was used (assuming my memory is not
faulty) if anyone was really interested.





-- 
Brad Spencer - brad at anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS - http://anduin.eldar.org

[COFF] [Simh] Of DEC and cards

[clemc]

One last reply here, but CCing COFF where this thread really belongs...

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 12:34 PM Timothe Litt <litt at ieee.org> wrote:

> OTOH, and probably more consistent with your experience, card equipment was
>
> almost unheard of when the DEC HW ran Unix...
>
You're probably right about that Tim, but DEC world was mostly
TOPS/TENEX/ITS and UNIX.  But you would think that since a huge usage of
UNIX systems were as RJE for IBM gear at AT&T.  In fact, that was one of
the 'justifications' if PWB.  I'm thinking of the machine rooms I saw in
MH, WH and IH, much less DEC, Tektronix or my university time.  It's funny,
I do remember a lot of work to emulate card images and arguments between
the proper character set conversions, but  I just don't remember seeing actual
card readers or punches on the PDP-11s, only on the IBM, Univac and CDC
systems.

As other people have pointed out, I'm sure they must have been around, but
my world did not have them.
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[COFF] [Simh] Of DEC and cards

[litt]

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In the TOPS-10 world, ANF-10 RJE stations could have card readers and
printers.  The TOPS-10/20 DN200 also.

But most "RJE" station software on the DEC side made the foreign
mainframe look like a batch queue, and you would submit a file to that
queue.  The software (typically DEC 2780/3780 emulation for
{TOPS-10,TOPS-20, VMS, ...}) would send the file to the mainframe from
an imaginary card reader; results similarly to an imaginary printer
(ending up in a .log or other file).  I suppose "virtual" would be the
modern word for "imaginary", but it comes to the same thing :-)

On the KL based systems, the software was a combination of PDP-11 front
end code (a dedicated DN20) and code running on the KL.  The KS used a
KDP, though there was also a "DN22" remote station.

I don't know exactly what UNIX did - wasn't in that world much then. 
But I wouldn't be surprised if the strategy was similar - user prepares
a file, software does the code conversions to/from EBCDIC, and the usual
lies told (er, device emulation performed) in both directions...  That
would certainly have led to the emulation work you recall - especially
given the fluid definitions of character sets at the time.  I don't
recall the same efforts to offload development to UNIX as to the DEC
proprietary systems - IIRC, compilers for legacy languages (COBOL, RPG,
PL/I) came to UNIX rather later, and with less rich/performant
implementations. 

In my experience, physical card equipment, as previously noted, was
either a legacy/migration requirement, or simply a bureaucratic legacy
"requirement".  The DEC value proposition was that cards were expensive,
awkward, slow, and painful to create, modify/debug with.  Interactive TS
solved those problems; the emulations were a medium of exchange between
the legacy/enterprise systems and the more productive DEC systems. 

Readers: quite common.  Punches, much less so.

On 13-Feb-20 13:37, Clem Cole wrote:
> One last reply here, but CCing COFF where this thread really belongs...
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 12:34 PM Timothe Litt <litt at ieee.org
> <mailto:litt at ieee.org>> wrote:
>
>     OTOH, and probably more consistent with your experience, card
>     equipment was
>
>     almost unheard of when the DEC HW ran Unix...
>
> You're probably right about that Tim, but DEC world was mostly
> TOPS/TENEX/ITS and UNIX.  But you would think that since a huge usage
> of UNIX systems were as RJE for IBM gear at AT&T.  In fact, that was
> one of the 'justifications' if PWB.  I'm thinking of the machine rooms
> I saw in MH, WH and IH, much less DEC, Tektronix or my
> universitytime.  It's funny, I do remember a lot of work to emulate
> card images and arguments between the proper character set
> conversions, but  I just don't remember seeing actual card readers or
> punches on the PDP-11s, only on the IBM, Univac and CDC systems. 
>
> As other people have pointed out, I'm sure they must have been around,
> but my world did not have them.
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[COFF] [Simh] Of DEC and cards

[dave]

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On Thu, 13 Feb 2020, Clem Cole wrote:

> [...] but  I just don't remember seeing actual card readers or punches 
> on the PDP-11s, only on the IBM, Univac and CDC systems. 

We had a small CDC card reader on our 11/40 for some reason; I wrote the 
driver, and it ran in two modes: straight binary i.e. all holes returned 
"as is", or NL-terminated ASCII.  I think the source of the cards was a
Cyber 72, but can't be sure.

-- Dave