The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Ted Zlatanov]

You can find out all the details at http://git.gnus.org/

The www.gnus.org web page will be updated as soon as possible but for
now please refer to http://git.gnus.org/ if you have any questions.

CVS access will be shut off shortly (right now it's read-only).  I don't
plan to bring it back or to keep synchronizing it.

I'd like to set up bidirectional synchronization between the Emacs
Bazaar repo and Gnus' Git repo; if you can do that or want to help me do
it please let me know.

Thanks
Ted

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Sivaram Neelakantan]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> You can find out all the details at http://git.gnus.org/
>
> The www.gnus.org web page will be updated as soon as possible but for
> now please refer to http://git.gnus.org/ if you have any questions.
>

So, how big would the download be now that git repos bring the entire
thing down with it?

[snipped 13 lines]



 sivaram
 -- 

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 23:51:39 +0530 Sivaram Neelakantan <nsivaram.net@gmail.com> wrote: 

SN> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:
>> You can find out all the details at http://git.gnus.org/
>> 
>> The www.gnus.org web page will be updated as soon as possible but for
>> now please refer to http://git.gnus.org/ if you have any questions.

SN> So, how big would the download be now that git repos bring the entire
SN> thing down with it?

20-30 MB currently.  Gnus will still be available as a tarball release
to those who don't want to track the repository development.

Ted

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Sven Joachim]

On 2010-04-19 20:21 +0200, Sivaram Neelakantan wrote:

> So, how big would the download be now that git repos bring the entire
> thing down with it?

,----
| % git clone http://git.gnus.org/gnus.git
| Initialized empty Git repository in /usr/local/src/gnus/.git/
| remote: Counting objects: 63323, done.        
| remote: Compressing objects: 100% (11087/11087), done.        
| remote: Total 63323 (delta 52118), reused 63284 (delta 52100)        
| Receiving objects: 100% (63323/63323), 17.13 MiB | 445 KiB/s, done.
| Resolving deltas: 100% (52118/52118), done.
`----

Sven

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Harry Putnam]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> You can find out all the details at http://git.gnus.org/

Not familiar with git, but it appears simple enough, and just
downloaded the clone.  One thing I didn't see on the page above was
any mention of `updating' as we used to do with cvs.

So do we just always pull down a whole clone?

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:03:40 -0500 Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> wrote: 

HP> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:
>> You can find out all the details at http://git.gnus.org/

HP> Not familiar with git, but it appears simple enough, and just
HP> downloaded the clone.  One thing I didn't see on the page above was
HP> any mention of `updating' as we used to do with cvs.

HP> So do we just always pull down a whole clone?

Cloning is a really small download, under 20 MB currently.  I installed
cgit (linked from the git.gnus.org page) so you can download a zip or
tgz snapshot of a particular branch or revision.

You don't need to clone every time to get an update.  To update, you do
a "git pull" usually but there's also "git merge" and "git reset"
depending on what you need.  As with Bazaar and other DVCSs, using Git
requires un-learning some CVS habits and learning some new ones...

Ted

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 14:50:03 -0400 Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote: 

SM> Here is the way I imagine it might work:
SM> - take an Emacs Bzr branch.
SM> - massage it with "bzr mv", "bzr rm", and "bzr add" to make it look
SM>   exactly like the corresponding revision in Gnus's Git.
SM> - call it "Gnus Bzr branch".
SM> - then use magic to make this Gnus Bzr branch sync bidirectionally with
SM>   the corresponding Git branch.

SM> We should then be able to use manually "bzr merge" from the Emacs Bzr
SM> branch to the Gnus Bzr branch and vice versa without too much pain (tho
SM> it will suffer from many spurious conflicts on files that are in one
SM> branch but not in the other, so some extra scripting will be helpful to
SM> ease the pain).

SM> If someone knows a magician that can take care of the Bzr<->Git part,
SM> I'm all ears.

I asked Carsten (org-mode) for guidance as he does something similar.

git-bzr supports push and pull (bzr-git only supports pull) so maybe it
makes sense to put the magic on the Git side.  In that case it may also
make sense to set up the "for-emacs" synchronization branch inside Gnus
and simply pull all the commits out of Bazaar for a specific set of
files.  IOW, instead of massaging the file locations in the for-emacs
branch, I could assemble a map of "gnus-file-name <-> emacs-file-name"
for all the files that need to be synchronized and then only look at
commits that involve those files.  So the "magic" would not only
synchronize but also translate and make rearranging the files
unnecessary.

I don't know which approach is best, honestly, so Carsten's opinion will
be valuable in addition to yours and anyone else willing to help.
Katsumi Yamaoka and Miles Bader, especially, may have interesting views
as they've worked on this synchronization with the CVS side.

Ted

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Andreas Schwab]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

> Not familiar with git, but it appears simple enough, and just
> downloaded the clone.  One thing I didn't see on the page above was
> any mention of `updating' as we used to do with cvs.

See gitcvs-migration(7).

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Stefan Monnier]

> git-bzr supports push and pull (bzr-git only supports pull) so maybe it
> makes sense to put the magic on the Git side.

git-bzr might be a good choice for the "magic" part, yes.

> IOW, instead of massaging the file locations in the for-emacs
> branch, I could assemble a map of "gnus-file-name <-> emacs-file-name"
> for all the files that need to be synchronized and then only look at
> commits that involve those files.  So the "magic" would not only
> synchronize but also translate and make rearranging the files
> unnecessary.

The "rearranging the files" is a simple way to "write" the map of
"gnus-file-name <-> emacs-file-name".  Bzr handles file renaming very
well, so if you do the renaming on the Bzr side, I think it'll work OK.
It doesn't handle removals as well (resulting in conflicts when you
merge changes to the removed file), but it shouldn't be too hard to cook
up a script which will resolve those conflicts automatically.

Since this will involve renaming of all files, the support for renaming
will be important.  If Git handles renames as well as Bzr in such
a case, then it doesn't matter where you do the renaming (on the Git or
the Bzr side).


        Stefan

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 11:00:18 -0400 Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote: 

>> git-bzr supports push and pull (bzr-git only supports pull) so maybe it
>> makes sense to put the magic on the Git side.

SM> git-bzr might be a good choice for the "magic" part, yes.

>> IOW, instead of massaging the file locations in the for-emacs
>> branch, I could assemble a map of "gnus-file-name <-> emacs-file-name"
>> for all the files that need to be synchronized and then only look at
>> commits that involve those files.  So the "magic" would not only
>> synchronize but also translate and make rearranging the files
>> unnecessary.

SM> The "rearranging the files" is a simple way to "write" the map of
SM> "gnus-file-name <-> emacs-file-name".  Bzr handles file renaming very
SM> well, so if you do the renaming on the Bzr side, I think it'll work OK.
SM> It doesn't handle removals as well (resulting in conflicts when you
SM> merge changes to the removed file), but it shouldn't be too hard to cook
SM> up a script which will resolve those conflicts automatically.

Git doesn't really do renames, but "git diff" will detect them if the
deleted and the new file have the same content.  So I generated a local
branch with git-bzr and then git {rm,mv} to implement the appended
differences.  It's not correct yet but at least for the lisp/gnus/*.el
files it will track commits.  So now `git bzr fetch' will fetch changes
to these files from Emacs while retaining the Gnus directory structure.

SM> Since this will involve renaming of all files, the support for renaming
SM> will be important.  If Git handles renames as well as Bzr in such
SM> a case, then it doesn't matter where you do the renaming (on the Git or
SM> the Bzr side).

I think it's been OK so far as an experiment but setting it up correctly
will probably be a pain.  btw, lisp/gnus/ChangeLog should be renamed to
lisp/ChangeLog (the diff below doesn't, by accident).  Also there's a
cascade of image files under etc/images and with the Gnus *.texi files
that probably need a one-time remapping I wasn't patient enough to do
just now.

The setup is:

1) git bzr add emacs ~/source/emacs/trunk; git checkout emacs

2) git checkout -b gnus-for-emacs

3) do the renames and deletes (maybe this could be automated somehow
based on file similarity?) and commit them.  The list of renames (I
include my experimental one) can be obtained with 
"git diff --summary -M -r emacs -r COMMITREF" for example.

Once it's all set up, I can say in my Bazaar-tracking repository

# what's new from Emacs?
git bzr fetch emacs
git diff gnus-for-emacs master

# what's new for Emacs?
git diff gnus-for-emacs emacs

...but as I said it's all an experiment so I don't know how painful it
will be on a daily basis.  One particular annoyance is that it's all
very verbose, I need to find a way to filter to only the files of
interest.  To do that I may need to write the mapping from Gnus to Emacs
filenames anyhow.

A likely problem will be merging a specific Emacs branch bidirectionally
to a specific Gnus branch.  So far I've only done it for Gnus trunk
vs. Emacs trunk.

Ted

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Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Stefan Monnier]

> Git doesn't really do renames, but "git diff" will detect them if the
> deleted and the new file have the same content.

I know that's how it works.  But I don't know what it means in terms of
the behavior when merging changes, including addition/removal of files.
IIUC it understands movement of files, but does it understand movement
of directories (e.g. if Gnus adds a new file lisp/gnus-new.el, will it
appear in Emacs as lisp/gnus/gnus-new.el or lisp/gnu-new.el?; similarly
if Emacs adds a new file lisp/new.el will it appear in Gnus as
lisp/new.el?).

I don't personally care whether the moves&removal&adds are done on the
Bzr or Git side.  AFAIK it's as easy to do it on either side.  It can
even be split into some part on one side and some other part on the
other side.

> A likely problem will be merging a specific Emacs branch bidirectionally
> to a specific Gnus branch.  So far I've only done it for Gnus trunk
> vs. Emacs trunk.

It should be just as easy for a branch as for the trunk.


        Stefan

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:28:45 -0400 Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote: 

>> Git doesn't really do renames, but "git diff" will detect them if the
>> deleted and the new file have the same content.

SM> I know that's how it works.  But I don't know what it means in terms of
SM> the behavior when merging changes, including addition/removal of files.
SM> IIUC it understands movement of files, but does it understand movement
SM> of directories (e.g. if Gnus adds a new file lisp/gnus-new.el, will it
SM> appear in Emacs as lisp/gnus/gnus-new.el or lisp/gnu-new.el?; similarly
SM> if Emacs adds a new file lisp/new.el will it appear in Gnus as
SM> lisp/new.el?).

Sorry, I'm learning some dark corners of Git so I don't assume everyone
knows how Git tracks blobs and indexes them.  It's supposed to find the
files by content across the tree, so a renamed file from either side
*should* be tracked correctly.  I'll have to try it to be sure.

Assuming this rename tracking works well, new files will be managed by
the Gnus synchronization maintainer.  The Emacs side should be
authoritative for new files, meaning that we (Gnus) will get lisp/new.el
and have to remove it, and that we will push our lisp/gnus-new.el to
your lisp/gnus/gnus-new.el.

SM> I don't personally care whether the moves&removal&adds are done on the
SM> Bzr or Git side.  AFAIK it's as easy to do it on either side.  It can
SM> even be split into some part on one side and some other part on the
SM> other side.

Let's keep all the work on the Git side.  I haven't heard anyone else
recommend a better workflow than "all on the Git side" yet.  So,
assuming the above, you or Yidong will not do anything special.  You
just need to tell us which Emacs branches should be synchronized with
the corresponding Gnus branches (let's keep the number down so it
doesn't become too much work).  I assume Emacs trunk will synchronize
with Gnus trunk; what other branches do we need immediately?

On the Gnus side I will experiment and try to develop a scripted
procedure, but it should be readily usable by anyone.

Thanks for your help
Ted

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Stefan Monnier writes:

 > I know that's how it works.  But I don't know what [git's
 > automatic-detection-implementation of copy/rename] means in terms of
 > the behavior when merging changes, including addition/removal of files.
 > IIUC it understands movement of files, but does it understand movement
 > of directories (e.g. if Gnus adds a new file lisp/gnus-new.el, will it
 > appear in Emacs as lisp/gnus/gnus-new.el or lisp/gnu-new.el?; similarly
 > if Emacs adds a new file lisp/new.el will it appear in Gnus as
 > lisp/new.el?).

Bazaar can't handle that and won't anytime soon as a standard feature
(no support for nested trees, how to do it remains controversial among
the core Bazaar developers).  git supports that with submodules
(speaking theoretically, I haven't tried this at home), but the
subtrees represented by git submodules must have identical structure.

 > I don't personally care whether the moves&removal&adds are done on the
 > Bzr or Git side.  AFAIK it's as easy to do it on either side.

Not.  See above.  You can take your chances with one of the Bazaar
plugins (bzr-externals, scmproj), but given the level of demand for
this feature, the fact that none of lifeless, jam, or aaron have
jumped on it suggests that the chances are unhappy that you'll bet on
the right horse, and in any case the documentation will undoubtedly
suck because the semantics will be buried deep in the Python code.

OTOH, git has a standard, built-in feature, with well-defined-and-
documented, simple semantics.

 > It should be just as easy for a branch as for the trunk.

Maybe.  I worry about ghost revisions appearing when you do a git->bzr
sync, and that's where they are most likely since git users branch
with abandon then abandon the branches, while it's no fun to try to
work with Bazaar that way.  Note that ghost revisions causes nasty
bugs in bzr as recently as a few weeks ago.

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:33:59 +0900 "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote: 

SJT> Bazaar can't handle that and won't anytime soon as a standard feature
SJT> (no support for nested trees, how to do it remains controversial among
SJT> the core Bazaar developers).  git supports that with submodules
SJT> (speaking theoretically, I haven't tried this at home), but the
SJT> subtrees represented by git submodules must have identical structure.

I don't like the way submodules work.  They are good for independent,
fairly static externals but for synchronizing two repositories I think
they'll be a pain.  There's some unpleasant caveats at
http://book.git-scm.com/5_submodules.html plus they are really easy to
screw up.

SJT> Maybe.  I worry about ghost revisions appearing when you do a git->bzr
SJT> sync, and that's where they are most likely since git users branch
SJT> with abandon then abandon the branches, while it's no fun to try to
SJT> work with Bazaar that way.  Note that ghost revisions causes nasty
SJT> bugs in bzr as recently as a few weeks ago.

Using git-bzr from http://github.com/kfish/git-bzr, it seems you can
only push to a single branch, will that still cause problems?  I think
the Gnus repository is pretty unlikely to branch with abandon, in any
case.

If Yidong, Stefan, and others are concerned about ghost revisions, we
can simply prepare the Gnus -> Emacs synchronization as a patch and
submit it through the usual channels or apply it manually ourselves in
isolation within Bazaar.  This will probably be the modus operandi at
first anyhow.

Ted

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Teemu Likonen]

* 2010-04-20 15:05 (-0500), Ted Zlatanov wrote:

> Git doesn't really do renames, but "git diff" will detect them if the
> deleted and the new file have the same content.

Not quite. Git will detect renames if at least 50% of file's content
remains the same. So, you can also modify files quite much unless the
renamed-modified file is not very small.

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Stefan Monnier]

>> I know that's how it works.  But I don't know what [git's
>> automatic-detection-implementation of copy/rename] means in terms of
>> the behavior when merging changes, including addition/removal of files.
>> IIUC it understands movement of files, but does it understand movement
>> of directories (e.g. if Gnus adds a new file lisp/gnus-new.el, will it
>> appear in Emacs as lisp/gnus/gnus-new.el or lisp/gnu-new.el?; similarly
>> if Emacs adds a new file lisp/new.el will it appear in Gnus as
>> lisp/new.el?).
> Bazaar can't handle that and won't anytime soon as a standard feature

I think your "that" is not what I was talking about, because I know for
a fact it works.  What I'm talking about is to just move directories
around in a branch: no need for nested trees or any such thing, no
restriction to "same layout" either.

>> It should be just as easy for a branch as for the trunk.
> Maybe.  I worry about ghost revisions appearing when you do a git->bzr
> sync, and that's where they are most likely since git users branch
> with abandon then abandon the branches, while it's no fun to try to
> work with Bazaar that way.  Note that ghost revisions causes nasty
> bugs in bzr as recently as a few weeks ago.

Ghost revisions are a problem for Bzr implementers, not users.


        Stefan

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Stefan Monnier]

> Assuming this rename tracking works well, new files will be managed by
> the Gnus synchronization maintainer.  The Emacs side should be
> authoritative for new files, meaning that we (Gnus) will get lisp/new.el
> and have to remove it, and that we will push our lisp/gnus-new.el to
> your lisp/gnus/gnus-new.el.

Hopefully Git can also figure out where to put new files.  But if not,
I really can't imagine why you'd insist on doing it "all on the Git
side".

> I assume Emacs trunk will synchronize with Gnus trunk;

Sounds right.

> what other branches do we need immediately?

We have the `emacs-23' branch which should sync with the "stable" branch
of Gnus (not sure which one that is because I don't track Gnus
development closely enough).


        Stefan

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Ted Zlatanov writes:

 > I don't like the way submodules work.  They are good for independent,
 > fairly static externals but for synchronizing two repositories I think
 > they'll be a pain.

Sure, but you're in for pain anyway since Gnus is a subset of Emacs,
not a subtree.  That is, Gnus-maintained features are spread across
several subdirectories of Emacs, while those Emacs subdirectories also
contain non-Gnus content.  Gnus contains lisp and etc directories
directly, while (I presume) Emacs contains lisp/gnus and etc/gnus
directories.

I can think of several ways to deal with this, but none of them are
very attractive.  Of them, I personally would use git submodules
because even though I'm sure I'd screw them up occasionally, there
would be an exact record of how they got screwed up.  The precise
semantics of submodules makes the task eminently scriptable, too, so
I would expect not to make the same mistake twice.[1]  YMMV<wink>

*What I would do if I were you* is lobby for a new subtree, "packages",
of the Emacs tree, and just plop Gnus into that, with its Lisp and
support files all under packages/gnus.  Add a make rule which puts
appropriate Gnus autoloads into the loaddefs or whatever Emacs uses,
to find Gnus' Lisp and data in there.  (Directory symlinks would work,
as in XEmacs' "symlink farm installation" option, but aren't
acceptable as long as systems that can't symlink easily are
supported.)  The way you're going, you're just making the same mistake
XEmacs made with its package system (having the installed tree look
different from the source tree), except that you're going to have more
pain than we do because of the possibility of shooting off both your
feet.  XEmacs packages has only one source tree, so even though the
installed structure is different from the source structure, at least
all the hackers are on the same page.  This isn't going to be true for
Gnus.

 > There's some unpleasant caveats at
 > http://book.git-scm.com/5_submodules.html plus they are really easy
 > to screw up.

Sure.  It will be work to make them work.  But I'm fairly sure you can
do it.  My point in replying to Stefan is that there's no standard way
to do it in Bazaar yet, and the chances are high that the standard,
when it appears, will yank the rug out from under existing practice.

 > SJT> Maybe.  I worry about ghost revisions appearing when you do a git->bzr
 > SJT> sync, and that's where they are most likely since git users branch
 > SJT> with abandon then abandon the branches, while it's no fun to try to
 > SJT> work with Bazaar that way.  Note that ghost revisions causes nasty
 > SJT> bugs in bzr as recently as a few weeks ago.
 > 
 > Using git-bzr from http://github.com/kfish/git-bzr, it seems you can
 > only push to a single branch, will that still cause problems?  I think
 > the Gnus repository is pretty unlikely to branch with abandon, in any
 > case.

Visibly, no.  But you have no control at all over what your developers
do privately.  Once merged and pushed, those branches have no names in
the public repository, but they still exist there!

I don't understand how ghost revisions (revisions referenced as
parents by revisions in the repo, but which themselves are not present
in the repo) can exist at all in a DAG-based system.  One may hope
that because git doesn't permit that, they won't exist in the bzr
mirror of your git tree, and that's actually probably a good bet.  But
I can't say it can't happen; it's your privilege to place your bets
here.<wink>

 > If Yidong, Stefan, and others are concerned about ghost revisions, we
 > can simply prepare the Gnus -> Emacs synchronization as a patch and
 > submit it through the usual channels or apply it manually ourselves in
 > isolation within Bazaar.  This will probably be the modus operandi at
 > first anyhow.

Yup.

Footnotes: 
[1]  NB. the synch tree would be owned by a special user, and only the
update scripts would be allowed to touch it.

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Stefan Monnier writes:

 > I think your "that" is not what I was talking about, because I know for
 > a fact it works.

You've managed what is conceptually a single body of content, using
two separate trees, both actively developed, with persistently
different names for the same file(s), and bidirectional merging?

 > >> It should be just as easy for a branch as for the trunk.
 > > Maybe.  I worry about ghost revisions appearing when you do a git->bzr
 > > sync, and that's where they are most likely since git users branch
 > > with abandon then abandon the branches, while it's no fun to try to
 > > work with Bazaar that way.  Note that ghost revisions causes nasty
 > > bugs in bzr as recently as a few weeks ago.
 > 
 > Ghost revisions are a problem for Bzr implementers, not users.

Surely a "can't do operation X because revision Y not found" error is
a problem for users.  I believe the particular operation was "branch".

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>:

SN> So, how big would the download be now that git repos bring the entire
SN> thing down with it?

> 20-30 MB currently.  Gnus will still be available as a tarball release
> to those who don't want to track the repository development.

Just out of curiosity: how large is the CVS repo?

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[David Engster]

Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:
>>>>>> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>:
>
> SN> So, how big would the download be now that git repos bring the entire
> SN> thing down with it?
>
>> 20-30 MB currently.  Gnus will still be available as a tarball release
>> to those who don't want to track the repository development.
>
> Just out of curiosity: how large is the CVS repo?

The complete CVS repo is about 100MB total, a bare gnus git repo (i.e.,
without a checkout) is currently at 26MB. A checkout of Gnus adds 12MB.

-David

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Andreas Schwab]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> I know that's how it works.  But I don't know what it means in terms of
> the behavior when merging changes, including addition/removal of files.
> IIUC it understands movement of files, but does it understand movement
> of directories

Git doesn't care about directories, it only cares about contents, no
matter where it is located.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[David Engster]

David Engster <deng@randomsample.de> writes:
> Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:
>>>>>>> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>:
>>
>> SN> So, how big would the download be now that git repos bring the entire
>> SN> thing down with it?
>>
>>> 20-30 MB currently.  Gnus will still be available as a tarball release
>>> to those who don't want to track the repository development.
>>
>> Just out of curiosity: how large is the CVS repo?
>
> The complete CVS repo is about 100MB total

Sorry, 48MB.

-David

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Andreas Schwab]

Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:

> Just out of curiosity: how large is the CVS repo?

49Mb uncompressed, 12Mb gzip compressed tarball (figures from Aug 2009).

I just ran `git gc --aggressive' on the git repo which shrank it to
18Mb.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Gnus Git synchronization with Emacs Bazaar (was: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19)

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 23:16:30 -0400 Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote: 

>> Assuming this rename tracking works well, new files will be managed by
>> the Gnus synchronization maintainer.  The Emacs side should be
>> authoritative for new files, meaning that we (Gnus) will get lisp/new.el
>> and have to remove it, and that we will push our lisp/gnus-new.el to
>> your lisp/gnus/gnus-new.el.

SM> Hopefully Git can also figure out where to put new files.  But if not,
SM> I really can't imagine why you'd insist on doing it "all on the Git
SM> side".

To avoid working on the Bazaar side.

>> what other branches do we need immediately?

SM> We have the `emacs-23' branch which should sync with the "stable" branch
SM> of Gnus (not sure which one that is because I don't track Gnus
SM> development closely enough).

Reiner should decide this since he's been doing branches and tags in CVS
so far, but it probably makes sense to call our branch "emacs-23" as
well.  The branch name may be confusing because of the "emacs_23_1_RC"
branch we inherited from CVS, but with Emacs 24 and later the scheme
will work.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:31:03 +0900 "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote: 

SJT> *What I would do if I were you* is lobby for a new subtree, "packages",
SJT> of the Emacs tree, and just plop Gnus into that, with its Lisp and
SJT> support files all under packages/gnus.  Add a make rule which puts
SJT> appropriate Gnus autoloads into the loaddefs or whatever Emacs uses,
SJT> to find Gnus' Lisp and data in there.  (Directory symlinks would work,
SJT> as in XEmacs' "symlink farm installation" option, but aren't
SJT> acceptable as long as systems that can't symlink easily are
SJT> supported.)

I was planning to make Gnus one of the first package.el packages under
Emacs; we've discussed a separate "trusted FSF packages" repository
which will be better than the subtree you suggest.  Installing Gnus
through package.el will DTRT regardless.

But that doesn't eliminate the synchronization problem: we still want to
keep the current setup and let Emacs keep its own version of some Gnus
files like message.el.  Only lisp/gnus/*.el, some docs, and some images
will move to the Gnus package.

SJT> The way you're going, you're just making the same mistake XEmacs
SJT> made with its package system (having the installed tree look
SJT> different from the source tree), except that you're going to have
SJT> more pain than we do because of the possibility of shooting off
SJT> both your feet.

I think that Gnus is a special case and we shouldn't adapt Emacs'
packaging system to accomodate it.

Thanks
Ted

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 02:59, Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> wrote:
> * 2010-04-20 15:05 (-0500), Ted Zlatanov wrote:
>
>> Git doesn't really do renames, but "git diff" will detect them if the
>> deleted and the new file have the same content.
>
> Not quite. Git will detect renames if at least 50% of file's content
> remains the same. So, you can also modify files quite much unless the
> renamed-modified file is not very small.

Not quite :)

At a very basic level Git just doesn't care. It just snapshots content
from one revision to the next. It really is just "A Stupid Content
Tracker".

Rename detection is all done at the higher level by the Git porcelain.
The 50% number you cited can be changed to anything you want by giving
the diff commands the -B$PERCENT argument. See gitdiffcore(7).

You could easily write your own rename tracking on top of Git that did
something completely different. Like do rename detection on binary
files, or on text in TIFF files based on how those files come through
OCR scanning.

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Andreas Schwab]

Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> writes:

> I just ran `git gc --aggressive' on the git repo which shrank it to
> 18Mb.

After pruning unrechable reflogs it shrank further to 16Mb.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:12:39 +0200 Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> wrote: 

AS> Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> writes:
>> I just ran `git gc --aggressive' on the git repo which shrank it to
>> 18Mb.

AS> After pruning unrechable reflogs it shrank further to 16Mb.

Should I do something on the server?  I've set it to run "git repack;
git gc" monthly.

Ted

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Andreas Schwab]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:12:39 +0200 Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> wrote: 
>
> AS> Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> writes:
>>> I just ran `git gc --aggressive' on the git repo which shrank it to
>>> 18Mb.
>
> AS> After pruning unrechable reflogs it shrank further to 16Mb.
>
> Should I do something on the server?

I'd suggest running "git gc --aggressive" once on the server, so that
future clones will benefit.  Since bare repositories don't keep reflogs
by default you don't have to worry about those.

> I've set it to run "git repack; git gc" monthly.

"git gc" already implies repack.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Teemu Likonen]

* 2010-04-21 11:30 (UTC), Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 02:59, Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> wrote:
                          ^^^^^

You make it look like I spent my night writing about this version
control tool. :-) Timezone issues...

>> Not quite. Git will detect renames if at least 50% of file's content
>> remains the same. So, you can also modify files quite much unless the
>> renamed-modified file is not very small.
>
> Not quite :)
>
> At a very basic level Git just doesn't care. It just snapshots content
> from one revision to the next. It really is just "A Stupid Content
> Tracker".
>
> Rename detection is all done at the higher level by the Git porcelain.
> The 50% number you cited can be changed to anything you want by giving
> the diff commands the -B$PERCENT argument. See gitdiffcore(7).

Yes, I know that, and would add that this default 50% detection
threshold is based on the smaller of the two files.

I just wanted to point out that in practice Git (the tool) really
understands renames. I have heard too many times that "in Git you must
commit a rename and content changes separately" (which is wrong) and
"Git doesn't understand renames at all" (which is very wrong, from the
point of view of the tool's user). Technical people may talk about
repository formats and different layers on top of that but I guess some
of that talk has escaped the context and I keep hearing misinformation
about Git-the-whole-system's abilities.

Anyway, thank you. Your message shares very useful information.

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 14:57, Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> wrote:
> * 2010-04-21 11:30 (UTC), Ęvar Arnfjörš Bjarmason wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 02:59, Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> wrote:
>                          ^^^^^
>
> You make it look like I spent my night writing about this version
> control tool. :-) Timezone issues...

You should have seen your original Date header :)

> Yes, I know that, and would add that this default 50% detection
> threshold is based on the smaller of the two files.

Yeah, and that alone will catch the overwhelming majority of cases.

> I just wanted to point out that in practice Git (the tool) really
> understands renames. I have heard too many times that "in Git you must
> commit a rename and content changes separately" (which is wrong) and
> "Git doesn't understand renames at all" (which is very wrong, from the
> point of view of the tool's user). Technical people may talk about
> repository formats and different layers on top of that but I guess some
> of that talk has escaped the context and I keep hearing misinformation
> about Git-the-whole-system's abilities.

Right, as far as the end user is concerned it tracks renames better
than anything else I've tried.

People assume that "tracking renames" is something they want to do,
but in practice systems that do inode-like tracking quickly run into
trouble (as Linus pointed out:
http://marc.info/?l=git&m=114123702826251).

Git doesn't explicitly track renames (it just analyzes history) but
it'll catch cases where you copy some template file (e.g. release
notes) two two locations in one commit. Systems that do inode-like
tracking won't catch that. Neither will they catch things on the
sub-file level, like moving a function between two files.

On the other hand those systems have more information than Git does in
most cases. They can analyze history like Git does *and* take into
account how their inodes changed over time. The difference is that
once systems start tracking inodes they tend not to do history
analysis at all.

> Anyway, thank you. Your message shares very useful information.

Likewise.

Gnus Git synchronization with Emacs Bazaar (was: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19)

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Ted Zlatanov writes:

 > SJT> *What I would do if I were you* is lobby for a new subtree, "packages",
 > SJT> of the Emacs tree, and just plop Gnus into that, with its Lisp and
 > SJT> support files all under packages/gnus.
 > 
 > But that doesn't eliminate the synchronization problem: we still want to
 > keep the current setup and let Emacs keep its own version of some Gnus
 > files like message.el.  Only lisp/gnus/*.el, some docs, and some images
 > will move to the Gnus package.

This business of Gnus being composed of several notionally separate
but in fact mutually infected subsystems does substantially complicate
things.  Nevertheless, the closer you make the Gnus subset of Emacs to
the standalone Gnus tree, the easier maintenance will be.

 > I think that Gnus is a special case and we shouldn't adapt Emacs'
 > packaging system to accomodate it.

The point is that, for the purpose of the present discussion, Gnus is
not that special a case, and that's why XEmacs has a package system, and
why, after being dragged in the direction of righteousness for over a
decade, all the while kicking and screaming about the evil of possibly
proprietary packages, Emacs is getting one too.

*shrug* Emacs people like it that way, I guess.

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Harry Putnam]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

[...]

> There's a bunch of files that in Gnus live in location X but in Emacs
> are in Y.  For example (Gnus first, Emacs second):
>
> lisp/ChangeLog -> lisp/gnus/ChangeLog
> GNUS-NEWS -> etc/GNUS-NEWS
> lisp/assistant.el -> not in Emacs
>
> If you can put together that list it would be a huge help.  I started on
> it (see my recent e-mail to ding) but it needs to be checked and all the
> documentation and image files need to be mapped as well.

I didn't see the post your are referring too... I did see a post where
you made mention of doing it:

    Message-ID: <87fx2qgrdw.fsf@lifelogs.com>
    Subject: Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

I didn't put a lot of effort into looking for it... but didn't see it
with a curory look.

OK, this probably isn't the way I should do this but I wondered if
even a partial list might be helpful right now.
I ran out of gas before polishing further and willa be tied up
tomorror nearly all day, so thought maybe I should I should put it up
here.

I do plan to clean it up... and of course if this is all wrong... any
input is welcom.

Below these lines is a semi finished list... just in case you need
some of it right away.  There could be some serious boners in there.
I'm half asleep but I will clean it further tomorrow.

I hope I'm getting the general idea... 

You showed one line:
> lisp/assistant.el -> not in Emacs

So I wasn't sure if you mean you wanted a list that like, or if any
files that like that should just be listed with the rest or what.

I ran out of gas before I worked on that part... but let me know if
the intent is to have files missing from emacs that are in gnus,
included.

Oh, I just left the top level dir as they are in my sandbox

  ./gnus ./emacs

-------        ---------       ---=---       ---------      --------
-------        ---------       ---=---       ---------      --------

./gnus/COPYING                     =>         ./emacs/COPYING
                                              ./emacs/nt/COPYING 
                                              ./emacs/etc/COPYING 
                                              ./emacs/src/COPYING 
                                              ./emacs/info/COPYING 
                                              ./emacs/leim/COPYING 
                                              ./emacs/lisp/COPYING 
                                              ./emacs/lwlib/COPYING 
                                              ./emacs/msdos/COPYING 
                                              ./emacs/lib-src/COPYING 

./gnus/GNUS-NEWS                   =>         ./emacs/etc/GNUS-NEWS
./gnus/lisp/auth-source.el         =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/auth-source.el
./gnus/texi/auth.texi              =>         ./emacs/doc/misc/auth.texi
./gnus/lisp/binhex.el              =>         ./emacs/lisp/mail/binhex.el
./gnus/lisp/canlock.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/canlock.el
./gnus/lisp/deuglify.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/deuglify.el
./gnus/lisp/dig.el                 =>         ./emacs/lisp/net/dig.el
./gnus/lisp/dns-mode.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/textmodes/dns-mode.el
./gnus/lisp/dns.el                 =>         ./emacs/lisp/net/dns.el
./gnus/texi/doclicense.texi        =>         ./emacs/doc/misc/doclicense.texi
./gnus/texi/doclicense.texi        =>         ./emacs/doc/emacs/doclicense.texi
./gnus/texi/doclicense.texi        =>         ./emacs/doc/lispintro/doclicense.texi
./gnus/lisp/earcon.el              =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/earcon.el
./gnus/lisp/ecomplete.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/ecomplete.el
./gnus/texi/emacs-mime.texi        =>         ./emacs/doc/misc/emacs-mime.texi
./gnus/lisp/flow-fill.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/flow-fill.el
./gnus/lisp/gmm-utils.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gmm-utils.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-async.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-async.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-audio.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-audio.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-bcklg.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-bcklg.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-bookmark.el       =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-bookmark.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-cache.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-cache.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-cite.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-cite.el
./gnus/texi/gnus-coding.texi       =>         ./emacs/doc/misc/gnus-coding.texi
./gnus/lisp/gnus-cus.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-cus.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-delay.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-delay.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-demon.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-demon.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-diary.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-diary.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-dired.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-dired.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-draft.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-draft.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-dup.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-dup.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-eform.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-eform.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-ems.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-ems.el
./gnus/texi/gnus-faq.texi          =>         ./emacs/doc/misc/gnus-faq.texi
./gnus/lisp/gnus-fun.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-fun.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-group.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-group.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-int.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-int.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-kill.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-kill.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-logic.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-logic.el
./gnus/texi/gnus-logo.eps          =>         ./emacs/etc/refcards/gnus-logo.eps
./gnus/lisp/gnus-mh.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-mh.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-ml.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-ml.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-mlspl.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-mlspl.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-move.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-move.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-msg.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-msg.el
./gnus/texi/gnus-news.el           =>         ./emacs/doc/misc/gnus-news.el
./gnus/texi/gnus-news.texi         =>         ./emacs/doc/misc/gnus-news.texi
./gnus/lisp/gnus-nocem.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-nocem.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-picon.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-picon.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-range.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-range.el
./gnus/texi/gnus-refcard.tex       =>         ./emacs/etc/refcards/gnus-refcard.tex
./gnus/lisp/gnus-registry.el       =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-registry.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-salt.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-salt.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-score.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-score.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-setup.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-setup.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-sieve.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-sieve.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-soup.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-soup.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-spec.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-spec.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-srvr.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-srvr.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-start.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-start.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-sum.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-sum.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-topic.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-topic.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-undo.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-undo.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-util.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-util.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-uu.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-uu.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-vm.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-vm.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus-win.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus-win.el
./gnus/lisp/gnus.el                =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/gnus.el
./gnus/texi/gnus.texi              =>         ./emacs/doc/misc/gnus.texi
./gnus/texi/etc/gnus.xpm           =>         ./emacs/etc/images/gnus/gnus.xpm
./gnus/lisp/hashcash.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/mail/hashcash.el
./gnus/lisp/hmac-def.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/net/hmac-def.el
./gnus/lisp/hmac-md5.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/net/hmac-md5.el
./gnus/lisp/html2text.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/html2text.el
./gnus/lisp/ietf-drums.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/ietf-drums.el
./gnus/lisp/imap.el                =>         ./emacs/lisp/net/imap.el
./gnus/lisp/legacy-gnus-agent.el   =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/legacy-gnus-agent.el
./gnus/lisp/mail-parse.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mail-parse.el
./gnus/lisp/mail-prsvr.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mail-prsvr.el
./gnus/lisp/mail-source.el         =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mail-source.el
./gnus/lisp/mailcap.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mailcap.el
./gnus/texi/message.texi           =>         ./emacs/doc/misc/message.texi
./gnus/lisp/messcompat.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/messcompat.el
./gnus/lisp/mm-bodies.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mm-bodies.el
./gnus/lisp/mm-decode.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mm-decode.el
./gnus/lisp/mm-encode.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mm-encode.el
./gnus/lisp/mm-extern.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mm-extern.el
./gnus/lisp/mm-partial.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mm-partial.el
./gnus/lisp/mm-url.el              =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mm-url.el
./gnus/lisp/mm-util.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mm-util.el
./gnus/lisp/mm-uu.el               =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mm-uu.el
./gnus/lisp/mm-view.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mm-view.el
./gnus/lisp/mml-sec.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mml-sec.el
./gnus/lisp/mml-smime.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mml-smime.el
./gnus/lisp/mml.el                 =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mml.el
./gnus/lisp/mml1991.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mml1991.el
./gnus/lisp/mml2015.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/mml2015.el
./gnus/lisp/netrc.el               =>         ./emacs/lisp/net/netrc.el
./gnus/lisp/nnagent.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnagent.el
./gnus/lisp/nnbabyl.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnbabyl.el
./gnus/lisp/nndb.el                =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nndb.el
./gnus/lisp/nndiary.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nndiary.el
./gnus/lisp/nndir.el               =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nndir.el
./gnus/lisp/nndoc.el               =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nndoc.el
./gnus/lisp/nndraft.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nndraft.el
./gnus/lisp/nneething.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nneething.el
./gnus/lisp/nnfolder.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnfolder.el
./gnus/lisp/nngateway.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nngateway.el
./gnus/lisp/nnheader.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnheader.el
./gnus/lisp/nnimap.el              =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnimap.el
./gnus/lisp/nnir.el                =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnir.el
./gnus/lisp/nnkiboze.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnkiboze.el
./gnus/lisp/nnlistserv.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnlistserv.el
./gnus/lisp/nnmail.el              =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnmail.el
./gnus/lisp/nnmaildir.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnmaildir.el
./gnus/lisp/nnmairix.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnmairix.el
./gnus/lisp/nnmbox.el              =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnmbox.el
./gnus/lisp/nnmh.el                =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnmh.el
./gnus/lisp/nnml.el                =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnml.el
./gnus/lisp/nnnil.el               =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnnil.el
./gnus/lisp/nnoo.el                =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnoo.el
./gnus/lisp/nnrss.el               =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnrss.el
./gnus/lisp/nnslashdot.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnslashdot.el
./gnus/lisp/nnsoup.el              =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnsoup.el
./gnus/lisp/nnspool.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnspool.el
./gnus/lisp/nntp.el                =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nntp.el
./gnus/lisp/nnultimate.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnultimate.el
./gnus/lisp/nnvirtual.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnvirtual.el
./gnus/lisp/nnwarchive.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnwarchive.el
./gnus/lisp/nnweb.el               =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnweb.el
./gnus/lisp/nnwfm.el               =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/nnwfm.el
./gnus/lisp/ntlm.el                =>         ./emacs/lisp/net/ntlm.el
./gnus/texi/pgg.texi               =>         ./emacs/doc/misc/pgg.texi
./gnus/lisp/pop3.el                =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/pop3.el
./gnus/lisp/qp.el                  =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/qp.el
./gnus/etc/images/gnus/reply.pbm   =>         ./emacs/etc/images/mail/reply.pbm
./gnus/lisp/rfc1843.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/rfc1843.el
./gnus/lisp/rfc2045.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/rfc2045.el
./gnus/lisp/rfc2047.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/rfc2047.el
./gnus/lisp/rfc2104.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/rfc2104.el
./gnus/lisp/rfc2231.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/rfc2231.el
./gnus/lisp/sasl-cram.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/net/sasl-cram.el
./gnus/lisp/sasl-digest.el         =>         ./emacs/lisp/net/sasl-digest.el
./gnus/lisp/sasl-ntlm.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/net/sasl-ntlm.el
./gnus/lisp/sasl.el                =>         ./emacs/lisp/net/sasl.el
./gnus/texi/sasl.texi              =>         ./emacs/doc/misc/sasl.texi
./gnus/lisp/score-mode.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/score-mode.el
./gnus/lisp/sieve-manage.el        =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/sieve-manage.el
./gnus/lisp/sieve-mode.el          =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/sieve-mode.el
./gnus/lisp/sieve.el               =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/sieve.el
./gnus/texi/sieve.texi             =>         ./emacs/doc/misc/sieve.texi
./gnus/lisp/smiley.el              =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/smiley.el
./gnus/lisp/smime.el               =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/smime.el
./gnus/lisp/spam-report.el         =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/spam-report.el
./gnus/lisp/spam-stat.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/spam-stat.el
./gnus/lisp/spam-wash.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/spam-wash.el
./gnus/lisp/spam.el                =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/spam.el
./gnus/lisp/starttls.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/starttls.el
./gnus/lisp/time-date.el           =>         ./emacs/lisp/calendar/time-date.el
./gnus/lisp/tls.el                 =>         ./emacs/lisp/net/tls.el
./gnus/lisp/utf7.el                =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/utf7.el
./gnus/lisp/uudecode.el            =>         ./emacs/lisp/mail/uudecode.el
./gnus/lisp/webmail.el             =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/webmail.el
./gnus/lisp/yenc.el                =>         ./emacs/lisp/gnus/yenc.el

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org>:

> Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> writes:
>> I just ran `git gc --aggressive' on the git repo which shrank it to
>> 18Mb.

> After pruning unrechable reflogs it shrank further to 16Mb.

Just some more numbers.  I copied my gnus CVS checkout to /tmp and
stripped it of the generated info files, and tried du, which reported
around 12MB.  Then I tar'ed up the gnus dir and got around 10MB (I have
no idea what causes the discrepancy), and gzipped the tar with --best
and got down to around 2MB.

(Nothing important: I was just curious how the actual source compared to
the different VCS'es.  Looks like git compare pretty well, both against
the source, and against other VCS'es.  So I wonder what the catch
is...?)

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Ted Zlatanov]

(removing emacs-devel from the CC)

The list below is helpful, thanks Harry.

I need the files that are missing in Emacs, e.g. lisp/assistant.el, as
well.

It's easiest if you make the list simply the Git commands I would apply
to a Git checkout of the Emacs repo (you can get one you can experiment
on from git://repo.or.cz/emacs.git):

# the COPYING file is left alone

# remove all the files in Emacs that are not in Gnus
git rm nt/COPYING ... (all the removed files in one section)

# add all the files not in Emacs
git add lisp/assistant.el ... (all the added files in one section)

# rename the files that change location
git mv etc/GNUS-NEWS GNUS-NEWS
git mv lisp/gnus/auth-source.el lisp/auth-source.el
git mv doc/misc/auth.texi texi/auth.texi
...

The end result should be a tree structure that looks like Gnus and has
mostly the same contents.

While this can be somewhat automated, I think when you put it together
and verify it, it will be a better resource.  I'll be on vacation from
April 24 to May 3 so it's not a rush to do this.

Thanks
Ted

Re: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:54:13 +0200 Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> wrote: 

AS> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:
>> On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:12:39 +0200 Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> wrote: 
>> 
AS> Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> writes:
>>>> I just ran `git gc --aggressive' on the git repo which shrank it to
>>>> 18Mb.
>> 
AS> After pruning unrechable reflogs it shrank further to 16Mb.
>> 
>> Should I do something on the server?

AS> I'd suggest running "git gc --aggressive" once on the server, so that
AS> future clones will benefit.  Since bare repositories don't keep reflogs
AS> by default you don't have to worry about those.

Done.  It's almost 13 MB now which is really good.

>> I've set it to run "git repack; git gc" monthly.

AS> "git gc" already implies repack.

Thanks, I changed the crontab accordingly.

Ted

cgit beautification (was: The Gnus repository is switching to Git as of 2010-04-19)

[Ted Zlatanov]

For the cgit interface to the Gnus Git repo and for git.gnus.org in
general, I'd like to set up a favicon.ico and a small PNG image.  If you
have artistic ability please make them (I don't so I won't).  I didn't
just convert the Gnus logo because I think git.gnus.org deserves a new
logo connecting the Gnus logo in some way with the Git logo (see
http://git-scm.com/images/header.gif).

Thanks
Ted

Re: cgit beautification

[Ted Zlatanov]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 618 bytes --]

On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 20:09:52 -0500 Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> wrote: 

TZ> For the cgit interface to the Gnus Git repo and for git.gnus.org in
TZ> general, I'd like to set up a favicon.ico and a small PNG image.  If you
TZ> have artistic ability please make them (I don't so I won't).  I didn't
TZ> just convert the Gnus logo because I think git.gnus.org deserves a new
TZ> logo connecting the Gnus logo in some way with the Git logo (see
TZ> http://git-scm.com/images/header.gif).

Oh, fine.  Here's a crappy favicon.ico generated from the gnus.png.
Don't make me use it.  Please give me something better.

Ted


[-- Attachment #2: favicon.ico --]
[-- Type: image/x-icon, Size: 1406 bytes --]

Re: cgit beautification

[Adam Sjøgren]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 686 bytes --]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:04:19 -0600, Ted wrote:

> Oh, fine.  Here's a crappy favicon.ico generated from the gnus.png.
> Don't make me use it.  Please give me something better.

How about the attached? I thought it might make sense to use the
development/No Gnus colours for git.gnus.org?

Please use a PNG for the favicon, rather than the weird ICO format (by
adding something like <link rel="icon" href="gnus-icon.png"
type="image/png" /> to the head-element) - the PNG is even almost 1 KiB
smaller.


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "I always liked songs with parentheses in the title."        Adam Sjøgren
                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk


[-- Attachment #2: gnus-icon.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 408 bytes --]

Re: cgit beautification

[Adam Sjøgren]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 620 bytes --]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:04:19 -0600, Ted wrote:

TZ> I think git.gnus.org deserves a new logo connecting the Gnus logo in
TZ> some way with the Git logo (see http://git-scm.com/images/header.gif).

Attached is an quick attempt to combine the (No) Gnus logo with the cgit
logo, as found on http://hjemli.net/git/cgit/

I find it hard to combine the pine tree eating blob with the Gnus logo,
and I find the --- +++ git logo is a little too 80's...


  :-),

   Adam

-- 
 "I always liked songs with parentheses in the title."        Adam Sjøgren
                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk


[-- Attachment #2: gnus-cgit.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 4244 bytes --]

Re: cgit beautification

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> Attached is an quick attempt to combine the (No) Gnus logo with the cgit
> logo, as found on http://hjemli.net/git/cgit/

Nice.  :-)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: cgit beautification

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 00:19:45 +0100 asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) wrote: 

AS> On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:04:19 -0600, Ted wrote:
TZ> I think git.gnus.org deserves a new logo connecting the Gnus logo in
TZ> some way with the Git logo (see http://git-scm.com/images/header.gif).

AS> Attached is an quick attempt to combine the (No) Gnus logo with the cgit
AS> logo, as found on http://hjemli.net/git/cgit/

AS> I find it hard to combine the pine tree eating blob with the Gnus logo,
AS> and I find the --- +++ git logo is a little too 80's...

On Fri, 25 Feb 2011 23:56:34 +0100 asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) wrote: 

AS> Please use a PNG for the favicon, rather than the weird ICO format (by
AS> adding something like <link rel="icon" href="gnus-icon.png"
AS> type="image/png" /> to the head-element) - the PNG is even almost 1 KiB
AS> smaller.

I set this up as you suggested.  I'm not sure where to give credit in
the ChangeLog (as author or in parenthesis at the addition comment).

Thanks
Ted

Re: cgit beautification

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 04:27:23 -0600 Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> wrote: 

TZ> I set this up as you suggested.  I'm not sure where to give credit in
TZ> the ChangeLog (as author or in parenthesis at the addition comment).

Author was most appropriate.  I should have coffee to make changes at 4
AM :) ChangeLog fixed.

Ted

Re: cgit beautification

[Adam Sjøgren]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 04:30:24 -0600, Ted wrote:

> On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 04:27:23 -0600 Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> wrote: 
TZ> I set this up as you suggested.  I'm not sure where to give credit in
TZ> the ChangeLog (as author or in parenthesis at the addition comment).

> Author was most appropriate.  I should have coffee to make changes at 4
> AM :) ChangeLog fixed.

As long as I am not credited for anything I haven't actuallty done, I am
happy.

It looks like you need a little more coffee though - you seem to have
used the big cgit logo (gnus-cgit.png) for the favicon, and you didn't
put anything where the big logo goes?

What I propose is to use the gnus-icon.png sent in
<871v2vn2ot.fsf@topper.koldfront.dk> for the favicon, and to use the
gnus-cgit.png sent in <87sjvbln1q.fsf@topper.koldfront.dk> for the logo
on the cgit page (where currently http://git.gnus.org/img/mylogo.png is
a dead link).

Also, if you do not use an absolute path in the link element for the
favicon it probably wont work anywhere but on the frontpage. I don't
know how easy it is to change the head-element of the cgit-pages -
currently it points to /favicon.ico.


  Best regards,

   Adam

-- 
 "I always liked songs with parentheses in the title."        Adam Sjøgren
                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk

Re: cgit beautification

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 12:31:53 +0100 asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) wrote: 

AS> On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 04:30:24 -0600, Ted wrote:
>> On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 04:27:23 -0600 Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> wrote: 
TZ> I set this up as you suggested.  I'm not sure where to give credit in
TZ> the ChangeLog (as author or in parenthesis at the addition comment).

>> Author was most appropriate.  I should have coffee to make changes at 4
>> AM :) ChangeLog fixed.

AS> It looks like you need a little more coffee though - you seem to have
AS> used the big cgit logo (gnus-cgit.png) for the favicon, and you didn't
AS> put anything where the big logo goes?

AS> What I propose is to use the gnus-icon.png sent in
AS> <871v2vn2ot.fsf@topper.koldfront.dk> for the favicon, and to use the
AS> gnus-cgit.png sent in <87sjvbln1q.fsf@topper.koldfront.dk> for the logo
AS> on the cgit page (where currently http://git.gnus.org/img/mylogo.png is
AS> a dead link).

AS> Also, if you do not use an absolute path in the link element for the
AS> favicon it probably wont work anywhere but on the frontpage. I don't
AS> know how easy it is to change the head-element of the cgit-pages -
AS> currently it points to /favicon.ico.

I'll see about the cgit /favicon.ico issue.  That may not be fixable.
But the logo on the cgit page (http://git.gnus.org/img/mylogo.png)
should be easily fixed as you suggested and I'll use the correct icon
for git.gnus.org front page.

Thanks
Ted

Re: cgit beautification

[Adam Sjøgren]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 07:32:29 -0600, Ted wrote:

> I'll see about the cgit /favicon.ico issue.  That may not be fixable.

Setting 'favicon' in cgitrc should do the trick:

,----
| favicon::
|         Url used as link to a shortcut icon for cgit. If specified, it is
|         suggested to use the value "/favicon.ico" since certain browsers will
|         ignore other values. Default value: none.
`----

(It is my impression that more or less all current browsers support the
link element for favicons.)

> But the logo on the cgit page (http://git.gnus.org/img/mylogo.png)
> should be easily fixed as you suggested and I'll use the correct icon
> for git.gnus.org front page.

Super - can't wait to see it :-)


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "I always liked songs with parentheses in the title."        Adam Sjøgren
                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk

Re: cgit beautification

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 18:08:57 +0100 asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) wrote: 

AS> On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 07:32:29 -0600, Ted wrote:
>> I'll see about the cgit /favicon.ico issue.  That may not be fixable.

AS> Setting 'favicon' in cgitrc should do the trick:

Done, plus the git.gnus.org favicon is now /gnus-icon.png.

>> But the logo on the cgit page (http://git.gnus.org/img/mylogo.png)
>> should be easily fixed as you suggested and I'll use the correct icon
>> for git.gnus.org front page.

AS> Super - can't wait to see it :-)

Done for both, cgitrc is correct now.

Thanks for your help.
Ted