MML

MML

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

(It looks like the ding list is down -- the last mail I received from
it I was posted 10 hours ago.)

Anyway.

If we go with the MML (MIME Markup Language) solution, could we write
a DTD for the language and use psgml mode to verify whether the
document is valid and stuff?  As well as parse it, so that we don't
have to write the code for that?

<multipart type=alternative>
This is a plain text part.
<multipart type=mixed>
<part type=text/enriched>
Lots rich text here.
<part type=image/gif>
<external name="~/rms.gif">
</multipart>
</multipart>

I think this looks kinda cute.  (FSVO "cute".)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: MML

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

> As well as parse it, so that we don't have to write the code for
> that?

It would have to be optional, because you can't know that psgml will
be installed.  Another potential concern is the speed of psgml.
Writing a correct SGML parser is *hard*.

I agree about the cuteness, though.

-- 
Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> | Student at FER Zagreb, Croatia
--------------------------------+--------------------------------
Manic depression is cool...  your body can make its own drugs.

Re: MML

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:

> It would have to be optional, because you can't know that psgml will
> be installed.

Well, we could demand that psgml be installed.  (That is, if RMS wants
to ship psgms with Emacs (and I've now asked him), and if the psgml
author wants to ship it with Emacs (I'll ask him (or not) after RMS
decides.)) 

> Another potential concern is the speed of psgml.

I think MML would be pretty light, and the structure of a typical MML
document would contain very little markup.

> Writing a correct SGML parser is *hard*.

Which is why I don't want to do it.  :-)

Well, writing a specialized parser just for one (1) version of MML is
probably doable in finite time, but that would be somewhat
inflexible.  But if psgml is not an option, and we decide to run with
MML, then it would definitely be doable to write an mml.el.

On the other hand -- wouldn't doing something that has a similar
syntax to HTML make it kinda more difficult for people to post using
HTML or pseudo-HTML?  As in, "does this "</>" refer to the MML or the
HTML or the richtext?"  Hm.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: MML

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:
> 
> > It would have to be optional, because you can't know that psgml will
> > be installed.
> 
> Well, we could demand that psgml be installed.

XEmacs needn't ship psgml by default (it does in 20.4, but the
packaging will provide flexibility to change this.)  Of course, Gnus
would depend on psgml, which looks quite gratuitous to me.  Your
rationale for not using `sendmail.el' was that you wanted to avoid
such dependencies -- and this one is much worse.

> > Another potential concern is the speed of psgml.
> 
> I think MML would be pretty light,

The weight of your DTD is irrelevant; the parser must still run the
whole message text through an SGML parser.

> On the other hand -- wouldn't doing something that has a similar
> syntax to HTML make it kinda more difficult for people to post using
> HTML or pseudo-HTML?

Good that you thought of that.  For that matter, this string of
characters is illegal SGML: <!fubar baz>.  An SGML parser would barf
on my message.  Or, if this appears in the message: <!--, then nothing 
up to the next `- - >' pair would be parsed.  And so on.

-- 
Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> | Student at FER Zagreb, Croatia
--------------------------------+--------------------------------
Union break!

Re: MML

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:

> Your rationale for not using `sendmail.el' was that you wanted to
> avoid such dependencies -- and this one is much worse.

No, my rationale for not using sendmail.el was that users shouldn't
have to fiddle with a gazillion different packages to get the
behaviour they wanted when sending news/mail.  (Gnus, sendmail and
rnewspost were all involved before; now it's just Message.)

> Good that you thought of that.  For that matter, this string of
> characters is illegal SGML: <!fubar baz>.  An SGML parser would barf
> on my message.  Or, if this appears in the message: <!--, then nothing 
> up to the next `- - >' pair would be parsed.  And so on.

If one writes a parser that just parses <part> and <multipart>
elements, one can be a lot sloppier with requirements to the syntax of 
the contents of each container.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: MML

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> > Good that you thought of that.  For that matter, this string of
> > characters is illegal SGML: <!fubar baz>.  An SGML parser would
> > barf on my message.  Or, if this appears in the message: <!--,
> > then nothing up to the next `- - >' pair would be parsed.  And so
> > on.
> 
> If one writes a parser that just parses <part> and <multipart>
> elements, one can be a lot sloppier with requirements to the syntax
> of the contents of each container.

I don't think psgml contains such a parser (but I might be wrong).
Writing it shouldn't be hard, though.

But even so, up to now Gnus/Message has happily ignored everything
after `--text follows this line--'.  Now this will change, and I'm not 
sure it's a change for the better.  Perhaps it's a matter of taste.

-- 
Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> | Student at FER Zagreb, Croatia
--------------------------------+--------------------------------
Do not meddle in the affairs of troff, for it is subtle and quick
to anger.

Re: MML

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 403 bytes --]


Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:

> But even so, up to now Gnus/Message has happily ignored everything
> after `--text follows this line--'.  Now this will change, and I'm not 
> sure it's a change for the better.  Perhaps it's a matter of taste.

Well, MIME deals mainly with structured bodies, so if we want to do
MIME, we have to be able to add structure to the bodies in some way or 
other.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 71 bytes --]


I mean, this way we can have one part with one charset -- "黃遠生"...

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 330 bytes --]


Áñd añother with a different charset, which seems nice.  Either the
user has to specify these things (and to do this, one just has to put
<!part> (less the exclamation mark) a couple of places, so it seems
fairly low impact...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: MML

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr>:

> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:
>> As well as parse it, so that we don't have to write the code for
>> that?

> It would have to be optional, because you can't know that psgml will
> be installed.  Another potential concern is the speed of psgml.
> Writing a correct SGML parser is *hard*.

The parsing speed of psgml is pretty good.  At least the "Next trouble 
spot" command is pretty fast, even on documents around 70k.

I think the documentation says somewhere that it isn't a full,
validating, SGML parser.  But my experience in using it since 1995, is 
that it seems to be good at picking up errors in the document.

Re: MML

[David Hedbor]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

I like the idea of MML.

> <part type=image/gif>
> <external name="~/rms.gif">

I think this could be written as:

<part type=image/gif src="~/rms.gif">

Looks cleaner, I think. 

-- 
[ Below is a random fortune, which is unrelated to the above message. ]
Great acts are made up of small deeds.
		-- Lao Tsu

Re: MML

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

David Hedbor <david@hedbor.org> writes:

> <part type=image/gif src="~/rms.gif">
> 
> Looks cleaner, I think. 

Yup.  But I used "filename" instead of "src".

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: MML

[David Hedbor]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> David Hedbor <david@hedbor.org> writes:
> 
> > <part type=image/gif src="~/rms.gif">
> > 
> > Looks cleaner, I think. 
> 
> Yup.  But I used "filename" instead of "src".

Noticed. That's better since src makes you think of images only (which
was what I was thinking at a time).

-- 
[ Below is a random fortune, which is unrelated to the above message. ]
Adult, n.:
	One old enough to know better.