Citation processing in HTML articles?

Citation processing in HTML articles?

[Dave Abrahams]

I have come to rely on Gnus' syntax coloring and most especially its
ability to hide long stretches of cited text (nobody prunes their
messages anymore).  But I also deal with lots of messages that only
format well when rendered as HTML, and AFAICT there's no way to get
gnus-cite to interoperate with shr or w3m, which often leaves me
scrolling through huge blobs of cited text hoping I don't miss the one-
or two-line response.  Does anybody have a solution for this?  

FWIW, the HTML email tends to use

   <blockquote type="cite" class=""> ... </blockquote>

for each level of citation.

Thanks!

-- 
-Dave

Re: Citation processing in HTML articles?

[Emanuel Berg]

Dave Abrahams <dave@boostpro.com> writes:

> I have come to rely on Gnus' syntax coloring
> and most especially its ability to hide long
> stretches of cited text (nobody prunes their
> messages anymore).

Creative! :) The power of colors should never
be underestimated. (And I'm not talking pink
panties here.)

But, in this case there is a better way:

    (setq gnus-treat-hide-citation t)

> But I also deal with lots of messages that
> only format well when rendered as HTML, and
> AFAICT there's no way to get gnus-cite to
> interoperate with shr or w3m, which often
> leaves me scrolling through huge blobs of
> cited text hoping I don't miss the one- or
> two-line response. Does anybody have
> a solution for this?

You better believe it:

    (setq mm-discouraged-alternatives '("text/html" "text/richtext"))

-- 
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
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Re: Citation processing in HTML articles?

[Dave Abrahams]

on Mon May 16 2016, Emanuel Berg <embe8573-AT-student.uu.se> wrote:

> Dave Abrahams <dave@boostpro.com> writes:
>
>> I have come to rely on Gnus' syntax coloring
>> and most especially its ability to hide long
>> stretches of cited text (nobody prunes their
>> messages anymore).
>
> Creative! :) The power of colors should never
> be underestimated. (And I'm not talking pink
> panties here.)
>
> But, in this case there is a better way:
>
>     (setq gnus-treat-hide-citation t)

? That's what I do already

>> But I also deal with lots of messages that
>> only format well when rendered as HTML, and
>> AFAICT there's no way to get gnus-cite to
>> interoperate with shr or w3m, which often
>> leaves me scrolling through huge blobs of
>> cited text hoping I don't miss the one- or
>> two-line response. Does anybody have
>> a solution for this?
>
> You better believe it:
>
>     (setq mm-discouraged-alternatives '("text/html" "text/richtext"))

You're missing my point.  This is for “messages that
only format well when rendered as HTML.”  Unfortunately, I have to deal
with many of those.

-- 
-Dave


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Re: Citation processing in HTML articles?

[Emanuel Berg]

Dave Abrahams <dave@boostpro.com> writes:

>> Creative! :) The power of colors should
>> never be underestimated. (And I'm not
>> talking pink panties here.) But, in this
>> case there is a better way: (setq
>> gnus-treat-hide-citation t)
>
> ? That's what I do already

...? OK, so what is the problem, then?
The buttons (three chars each) too big?

> This is for “messages that only format well
> when rendered as HTML.” Unfortunately, I have
> to deal with many of those.

Well, good technology can make bad technology
less bad, but only to a certain point, and it
is not pleasant work, as in the back of your
mind you know this would be a non-issue if only
good technology was used to begin with! (I know
this isn't helping you, but it is the truth.)

-- 
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Re: Citation processing in HTML articles?

[Dave Abrahams]

on Tue May 17 2016, Emanuel Berg <embe8573-AT-student.uu.se> wrote:

> Dave Abrahams <dave@boostpro.com> writes:
>
>>> Creative! :) The power of colors should
>>> never be underestimated. (And I'm not
>>> talking pink panties here.) But, in this
>>> case there is a better way: (setq
>>> gnus-treat-hide-citation t)
>>
>> ? That's what I do already
>
> ...? OK, so what is the problem, then?
> The buttons (three chars each) too big?

No, I just don't want to have to go through the process of hunting for
the right combination of mime buttons and article washing necessary to
make an article readable.  There are lots of reasons not to use a more
“traditional” mail client than Gnus, but at least they tend to make more
of the messages quite readable without user intervention.

And I don't show the MIME buttons by default, FWIW.

>> This is for “messages that only format well
>> when rendered as HTML.” Unfortunately, I have
>> to deal with many of those.
>
> Well, good technology can make bad technology
> less bad, but only to a certain point, and it
> is not pleasant work, as in the back of your
> mind you know this would be a non-issue if only
> good technology was used to begin with! (I know
> this isn't helping you, but it is the truth.)

I'm not judgemental about which technologies are good, at least not in
this domain.  People sometimes use HTML to express things that doen't
translate well to plain text.  And as you say, it doesn't help at all to
wish people used different technology.  I have to live in the real
world.  I can write a citation-coloring-and-hiding postprocessor for
Gnus myself if I have to but I was hoping someone already solved this
problem.

>

-- 
-Dave


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Re: Citation processing in HTML articles?

[Emanuel Berg]

Dave Abrahams <dave@boostpro.com> writes:

> I can write a citation-coloring-and-hiding
> postprocessor for Gnus myself if I have to
> but I was hoping someone already solved
> this problem.

Isn't this achieved with:

    (setq gnus-treat-hide-citation t)

and then setting the faces:

    gnus-cite-1
    gnus-cite-2
    gnus-cite-...
    gnus-cite-attribution

?

> No, I just don't want to have to go through
> the process of hunting for the right
> combination of mime buttons and article
> washing necessary to make an article
> readable.

Gnus can to a certain extent make crappy
messages look good. But if the messages are
good to begin with, they'll look good in Gnus
with no intervention to it.

The hiding of citations, and replacing them
with button so they can be expanded if need be,
this is not washing but a convenient way of
getting less text to bother you, while still
have it readily available.

> There are lots of reasons not to use a more
> “traditional” mail client than Gnus, but at
> least they tend to make more of the messages
> quite readable without user intervention.

Can you provide us with examples of messages
that Gnus makes less readable? I don't think
Gnus does that - more likely *the messages* are
crappy beyond help to begin with, and with
efforts Gnus can be made to make them look
somewhat better.

> And I don't show the MIME buttons by
> default, FWIW.

Which are those? The attachment buttons?
Why would you want to hide them?

> I'm not judgemental about which technologies
> are good, at least not in this domain.
> People sometimes use HTML to express things
> that doen't translate well to plain text.

HTML, LaTeX, groff, etc. should be used for
persistent documents that are public and
refered to (manuals for example).

Mails should never be in HTML or anything else
but plain text, which is always sufficient, or
in 99% of the cases, and if isn't, the solution
is to make a HTML (or whatever) document, put
it on the Internet, and refer to the URL in the
mail, using plain text only.

> And as you say, it doesn't help at all to
> wish people used different technology. I have
> to live in the real world.

IMO it is only frustrating to deal with crappy
technology or crappy use of good technology.
And when the result turns out crappy as well
people won't buy you telling them it was
because of the crappy technology, because that
sounds like making up excuses.

What do you think would happen if you throw
a bunch of 30-year old worn-out skates, sticks,
and equipment to an NHL team? "Hey, don't be so
choosy! I live in the real world and not all
sticks are perfect." They would never accept
it, partly because the result would suck and
even worse they would look like fools trying.
Why should you demand less than they,
especially as the best software in the world -
contrary to sports gear - is free och charge
and readily available to anyone?

-- 
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
                   - so far: 34 Blogomatic articles -                   


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Re: Citation processing in HTML articles?

[Dave Abrahams]

on Thu May 19 2016, Emanuel Berg <embe8573-AT-student.uu.se> wrote:

> Dave Abrahams <dave@boostpro.com> writes:
>
>> I can write a citation-coloring-and-hiding
>> postprocessor for Gnus myself if I have to
>> but I was hoping someone already solved
>> this problem.
>
> Isn't this achieved with:
>
>     (setq gnus-treat-hide-citation t)
>
> and then setting the faces:
>
>     gnus-cite-1
>     gnus-cite-2
>     gnus-cite-...
>     gnus-cite-attribution
>
> ?
>
>> No, I just don't want to have to go through
>> the process of hunting for the right
>> combination of mime buttons and article
>> washing necessary to make an article
>> readable.
>
> Gnus can to a certain extent make crappy
> messages look good. But if the messages are
> good to begin with, they'll look good in Gnus
> with no intervention to it.
>
> The hiding of citations, and replacing them
> with button so they can be expanded if need be,
> this is not washing but a convenient way of
> getting less text to bother you, while still
> have it readily available.
>
>> There are lots of reasons not to use a more
>> “traditional” mail client than Gnus, but at
>> least they tend to make more of the messages
>> quite readable without user intervention.
>
> Can you provide us with examples of messages
> that Gnus makes less readable? I don't think
> Gnus does that - more likely *the messages* are
> crappy beyond help to begin with, and with
> efforts Gnus can be made to make them look
> somewhat better.

That's not my experience.  If you read through the messages in
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.swift.evolution you'll see quite a
variety, and usually at least *one* way of looking at the message will
be pretty good, and furthermore usually a GUI client like Thunderbird
will do an excellent job at rendering it.  The most common problem I've
seen is that many messages with embedded code examples in HTML have the
code terribly misformatted in their plain text MIME segments.  So I have
to look at the HTML if I want to read the code.  However, I can't get
the overlong citations to be hidden, so it takes too long to figure out
which non-code I need to look at.

>> And I don't show the MIME buttons by
>> default, FWIW.
>
> Which are those? The attachment buttons?
> Why would you want to hide them?

I'm trying to eliminate visual clutter.  The more I can do that and have
Gnus get things right automatically, the better my life is.

-- 
-Dave


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Re: Citation processing in HTML articles?

[Emanuel Berg]

Dave Abrahams <dave@boostpro.com> writes:

> If you read through the messages in
> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.swift.evolution

Why the URL? I can get

    gmane.comp.lang.swift.evolution

with Gnus and Gmane and from a quick glance the
messages look good.

I'm very confident normal messages that
themselves are sound are also displayed
perfectly clear!

> I'm trying to eliminate visual clutter.
> The more I can do that and have Gnus get
> things right automatically, the better my
> life is.

It is much better to position yourself in
a segment of the computer world where people
share your taste in technology instead of going
where people write havoc HTML/MIME mails and
then try to configure a mail client to still
present them in a civilized way!

-- 
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
                   - so far: 39 Blogomatic articles -