FAQ 5.2 still correct?

FAQ 5.2 still correct?

[Memnon Anon]

Hi!

Gnus FAQ 5.2 [http://gnus.org/manual/gnus_367.html#SEC418]
tells me to use

     (setq message-required-mail-headers
          (remove' Message-ID message-required-mail-headers))

to avoid gnus setting my Message-Id in emails.
Is this still valid? google groups shows nothing using this or
this (setq message-required-news-headers)
search for about 4 (!) years.

Leafnode sets my News FQDN correctly for me (using hostname= option).
But my emails still show my (invalid) hostname like
      <831w2n7t9g.fsf@hostname.RP614v4>

Could someone please confirm it still works?
If so, what could override this setting?

Thanks a lot for your help.
I really appreciate it.

Re: FAQ 5.2 still correct?

[Memnon Anon]

Okay,
I still got this problem.

Memnon Anon schrieb
>      (setq message-required-mail-headers
>           (remove' Message-ID message-required-mail-headers))

Using customize I see that the Message-Id is not in
MessageRequiredMailHeaders. So this command works.
But still, my message-Id is set.
If I compose a Message and have a look at ~/Mail/queued-
mail/"mymessage",
the file contains a generated Message ID.
So I wonder: Which part actually sets the Message-Id?
How can I find out?
Could anyone give me a hint how to avoid this behaviour and let
the server set my message id?

Thanks for any hint.

Re: FAQ 5.2 still correct?

[renaudr]

On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 17:18:18 -0700 (PDT), Memnon Anon
<gegendosenfleisch@googlemail.com> said:

> How can I find out?
> Could anyone give me a hint how to avoid this behaviour and let
> the server set my message id?

Did you try ?

(add-hook 'message-send-hook
	  (lambda ()
	    (message-remove-header "Message-ID" t)))

You also have 'message-send-mail-hook and 'message-send-news-hook to further
refine.

Hope this helps.

-- 
		Renaud

Re: FAQ 5.2 still correct?

[Memnon Anon]

Hi!

rena...@free.fr schrieb:
> Did you try ?
>
> (add-hook 'message-send-hook
> 	  (lambda ()
> 	    (message-remove-header "Message-ID" t)))
>
> You also have 'message-send-mail-hook and 'message-send-news-hook to further
> refine.
>
> Hope this helps.

I tried it, but this did not change my problem.
I went through all Menupoints of customize/applications/Mail
but could not find anything. So, I wasted enough hours for now ;).
My mail is in ~/Mail/queued-mail/, so I will remove every
generated Message ID manually before sending it. This
will do, until I have time to try to solve this mysterie again...

Thanks for your suggestion!

Re: FAQ 5.2 still correct? [solved]

[Memnon Anon]

Solved!

As I said, gnus per se did not add the message-id.
I confirmed this again by using
(setq message-generate-headers-first t).
No Message-Id was generated, but mail in ~/Mail/queued-mail/
had a Message-Id.
So I had a look at smtpmail.el. This file contains these lines:

	    ;; Insert a `Message-Id:' field if there isn't one yet.
	    (goto-char (point-min))
	    (unless (re-search-forward "^Message-Id:" delimline t)
	      (insert "Message-Id: " (message-make-message-id) "\n"))

I just
- copied the file to smtpmail-changed.el
- added ;; in front of each of those three lines
- changed the last line to (provide 'smtpmail-changed)
- changed my .gnus to (require 'smtpmail-changed)

Now, my Message-Id is set by the google smtp-server ;)

Great!
Thanks to the author of smtpmail.el for extensively documenting
each single step in there!

Re: FAQ 5.2 still correct? [solved]

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Memnon Anon <gegendosenfleisch@googlemail.com> wrote: 

MA> Solved!
MA> As I said, gnus per se did not add the message-id.
MA> I confirmed this again by using
MA> (setq message-generate-headers-first t).
MA> No Message-Id was generated, but mail in ~/Mail/queued-mail/
MA> had a Message-Id.
MA> So I had a look at smtpmail.el. This file contains these lines:

MA> 	    ;; Insert a `Message-Id:' field if there isn't one yet.
MA> 	    (goto-char (point-min))
MA> 	    (unless (re-search-forward "^Message-Id:" delimline t)
MA> 	      (insert "Message-Id: " (message-make-message-id) "\n"))

MA> I just
MA> - copied the file to smtpmail-changed.el
MA> - added ;; in front of each of those three lines
MA> - changed the last line to (provide 'smtpmail-changed)
MA> - changed my .gnus to (require 'smtpmail-changed)

MA> Now, my Message-Id is set by the google smtp-server ;)

MA> Great!
MA> Thanks to the author of smtpmail.el for extensively documenting
MA> each single step in there!

Is this required for Google SMTP?  We could make it a smtpmail.el option
that you can just turn off as needed (per server).

Ted

Option for sendmail.el WAS: FAQ 5.2 still correct? [solved]

[Memnon Anon]

Ted Zlatanov schrieb:

> Is this required for Google SMTP?  We could make it a smtpmail.el option
> that you can just turn off as needed (per server).

No, it is not required for google smtp. I just wanted my message id
not to be created on my machine. I've got a invalid  fqdn. So, why
not let google do it.

Should there be an option?

I think, the default (add M-Id automagically) is quite sensible.
It took me hours to track this down, but thats because I am still
quite new
to emacs and gnus. I looked in the wrong places.

Re: Option for sendmail.el WAS: FAQ 5.2 still correct? [solved]

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 06:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Memnon Anon <gegendosenfleisch@googlemail.com> wrote: 

MA> Ted Zlatanov schrieb:
>> Is this required for Google SMTP?  We could make it a smtpmail.el option
>> that you can just turn off as needed (per server).

MA> No, it is not required for google smtp. I just wanted my message id
MA> not to be created on my machine. I've got a invalid  fqdn. So, why
MA> not let google do it.

MA> Should there be an option?

You can set your user-mail-address and the FQDN for the message ID will
be automatically deduced from it (by message-make-fqdn, which calls
message-user-mail-address).  Is that sufficient or do you need do set
the domain of the message ID separately from your user-mail-address?

Ted

Re: Option for sendmail.el WAS: FAQ 5.2 still correct? [solved]

[Memnon Anon]

On 10 Jul., 16:53, Ted Zlatanov <t...@lifelogs.com> wrote:

> You can set your user-mail-address and the FQDN for the message ID will
> be automatically deduced from it (by message-make-fqdn, which calls
> message-user-mail-address).  Is that sufficient or do you need do set
> the domain of the message ID separately from your user-mail-address?

I just checked. I added those 3 lines again and sent a mail to my
other mail
account. Result:

Message-Id: <83d4ljuakt.fsf@home.localdomain>

This is no vaild id. My machine is named home.
And even if there would be Message-Id:
<83d4ljuakt.fsf@googlemail.com>,
this would still not be vaild, because my machine has no
right to create a message Id like this.
This might result in duplicate M-ID, which is usually no problem.

But using Mailing lists, there is a tiny little chance this might be a
problem.

So this approach is just not clean, AFAIK.
No, the smtp-server creates my M-ID and I am pretty sure that google
knows
how to avoid duplicate ones ;).

Re: Option for sendmail.el WAS: FAQ 5.2 still correct? [solved]

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 19:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Memnon Anon <gegendosenfleisch@googlemail.com> wrote: 

MA> On 10 Jul., 16:53, Ted Zlatanov <t...@lifelogs.com> wrote:
>> You can set your user-mail-address and the FQDN for the message ID will
>> be automatically deduced from it (by message-make-fqdn, which calls
>> message-user-mail-address).  Is that sufficient or do you need do set
>> the domain of the message ID separately from your user-mail-address?

MA> I just checked. I added those 3 lines again and sent a mail to my
MA> other mail
MA> account. Result:

MA> Message-Id: <83d4ljuakt.fsf@home.localdomain>

MA> This is no vaild id. My machine is named home.

Can you call (message-make-fqdn)  (hit `C-x C-e' after the closing
parenthesis)?  Also call (message-user-mail-address) and let us know
what they say.  Finally, what's the value of user-mail-address (use 
`C-h v' to find out)?

If your user-mail-address is set properly you should not get that
message ID.  In your particular case you should get
<random-id@googlemail.com>.

MA> And even if there would be Message-Id:
MA> <83d4ljuakt.fsf@googlemail.com>,
MA> this would still not be vaild, because my machine has no
MA> right to create a message Id like this.

Generally speaking, you can make any message ID you like, it's just good
netiquette not to unless you don't have your own IP in a static domain.
I don't know if there's a relevant RFC, but at least this draft infers
you can generate it with the domain of your e-mail address:

http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/usefor/drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-message-id-01.txt

supported by some discussions:

http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/1997/May/0181.html

MA> This might result in duplicate M-ID, which is usually no problem.

MA> But using Mailing lists, there is a tiny little chance this might be a
MA> problem.

I wouldn't worry about it.  The chance that Gnus' algorithm will
conflict with Google's algorithm is negligible.  Of course, avoiding
this possibility is your choice.

Ted

Re: Option for sendmail.el

[Memnon Anon]

On 14 Jul., 16:16, Ted Zlatanov <t...@lifelogs.com> wrote:

> Can you call (message-make-fqdn)  (hit `C-x C-e' after the closing
> parenthesis)?  Also call (message-user-mail-address) and let us know
> what they say.  Finally, what's the value of user-mail-address (use
> `C-h v' to find out)?

Output:
(message-make-fqdn): machinename.localdomain
(message-user-mail-address): my set email address. This one seems
right
C-h v of user-mail-address: same output as (message-user-mail-address)

email address is set via (setq user-mail-address
"myemailname@myprovider.com")

> If your user-mail-address is set properly you should not get that
> message ID.  In your particular case you should get
> <random...@googlemail.com>.

Mhh. Well. No ;). I do not, as it seems.

I guess it is my fault. Configuring .gnus files and having no clue of
gnus,
just following different recipes on the web, is not that smart.

But hey, changing smtpmail.el works. No one ever said using Emacs/gnus
is easy; all they said is: whatever the problem, you may find a
solution ;).

So, it basically works. I think it is fun to "debug"  this behaviour,
but if you
have got more important stuff to attend, we can stop here.

memnon

Re: Option for sendmail.el

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 10:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Memnon Anon <gegendosenfleisch@googlemail.com> wrote: 

MA> On 14 Jul., 16:16, Ted Zlatanov <t...@lifelogs.com> wrote:
>> Can you call (message-make-fqdn)  (hit `C-x C-e' after the closing
>> parenthesis)?  Also call (message-user-mail-address) and let us know
>> what they say.  Finally, what's the value of user-mail-address (use
>> `C-h v' to find out)?

MA> Output:
MA> (message-make-fqdn): machinename.localdomain
MA> (message-user-mail-address): my set email address. This one seems
MA> right
MA> C-h v of user-mail-address: same output as (message-user-mail-address)

MA> email address is set via (setq user-mail-address
MA> "myemailname@myprovider.com")

OK, I found the problem.  The priority order is not what I thought.  Set
message-user-fqdn to what you need.  My fault, I misremembered the
code.

MA> I guess it is my fault. Configuring .gnus files and having no clue
MA> of gnus, just following different recipes on the web, is not that
MA> smart.

MA> But hey, changing smtpmail.el works. No one ever said using
MA> Emacs/gnus is easy; all they said is: whatever the problem, you may
MA> find a solution ;).

Gnus is, I'm afraid, fairly complex :)  It's one of the most interesting
parts of Emacs IMHO.

Fortunately, it gets much simpler once you understand the way it works.

Ted

Re: Option for sendmail.el

[Memnon Anon]

On 14 Jul., 21:08, Ted Zlatanov <t...@lifelogs.com> wrote:
> OK, I found the problem.  The priority order is not what I thought.  Set
> message-user-fqdn to what you need.  My fault, I misremembered the
> code.

Works! Thank you *very* much.