bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Peter Petersen]

Hello,

I have been using Forte Agent for years in Linux thanks to Wine. I am
still not sure whether I'll stay with it or not, because it does
(nearly) all I want (and better than any other newsreader I found).

Yet I have been using gnus every now and then, too. It appears to be the
only newsreader available in Linux which comes close to the features I
like in Forte Agent (like "watch thread", "keep messages" etc.).

Anyway, it would make it that much easier for me to use gnus if I were
satisfied with the fonts when reading news.

So far, I used "customize" to set a default face of "monotype-courier
new" - it is important to me 1) to use a fixed width font and 2) one
that is not too small to read.

I don't like the look of "monotype-courier new" particularly well.
So I tried to use "bitstream vera sans mono", which is a wonderful fixed
width font and looks perfect in Forte Agent as well as in web browsers,
such as opera.

Now the problem in gnus is:
When setting nothing special (i.e. weight medium) that font doesn't look
right, its slant is inclined, oblique or something! (which is NOT so in
Agent or Opera!) I only get a normal slant when setting weight to
"bold". But then everything just looks "too thick" and it hurts my eyes
- ugly!

Does anyone have an idea why emacs doesn't display that nice font the
same way as other applications (opera, firefox, Wine based
applications...)?

Is there anyone who uses that font in emacs and who uses it as a
non-bold font?

What could I do to deal with this issue?


Many thanks
Peter

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Frank Schmitt]

Peter Petersen <ppetersen@despammed.com> writes:

> I have been using Forte Agent for years in Linux thanks to Wine. I am
> still not sure whether I'll stay with it or not, because it does
> (nearly) all I want (and better than any other newsreader I found).
>
> Yet I have been using gnus every now and then, too. It appears to be the
> only newsreader available in Linux which comes close to the features I
> like in Forte Agent (like "watch thread", "keep messages" etc.).
>
> Anyway, it would make it that much easier for me to use gnus if I were
> satisfied with the fonts when reading news.

You should give the Terminus font from
http://www.is-vn.bg/hamster/jimmy-en.html a try. If you happen to use
Suse or Mandrake, they ship it.

-- 
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bullshit nobody will read.

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Peter Petersen]

Frank Schmitt <usereplyto2005@frank-schmitt.net> writes:

>> Anyway, it would make it that much easier for me to use gnus if I were
>> satisfied with the fonts when reading news.
>
> You should give the Terminus font from
> http://www.is-vn.bg/hamster/jimmy-en.html a try. If you happen to use
> Suse or Mandrake, they ship it.

Frank, thank you, but... I had already checked out that terminus font
before. :-) In emacs it doesn't look pleasant to my eyes either, too
narrow. And either not large enough or too large (like with so many
fonts that are either too small or too large with not enough steps
between...).

Perhaps I should mention that I use a 17 inches monitor and a resolution
of 1024x768.

Somewhere while googling I read that fonts such as bitstream vera sans
mono don't look good in emacs, because emacs doesn't work with Xft,
whereas this font looks great in applications like opera, firefox etc.

Ideas?


thanks
Peter

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Frank Schmitt]

Peter Petersen <ppetersen@despammed.com> writes:

> Somewhere while googling I read that fonts such as bitstream vera sans
> mono don't look good in emacs, because emacs doesn't work with Xft,
> whereas this font looks great in applications like opera, firefox etc.

You could try to get a freetype library with truetype hinting enabled,
perhaps Bitstream Vera Sans Mono looks better then.

-- 
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bullshit nobody will read.

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Peter Petersen]

Frank Schmitt <usereplyto2005@frank-schmitt.net> writes:

> Peter Petersen <ppetersen@despammed.com> writes:
>
>> Somewhere while googling I read that fonts such as bitstream vera sans
>> mono don't look good in emacs, because emacs doesn't work with Xft,
>> whereas this font looks great in applications like opera, firefox etc.
>
> You could try to get a freetype library with truetype hinting enabled,
> perhaps Bitstream Vera Sans Mono looks better then.

Hm, sorry, I don't understand what this means in practice... Do you
think of something emacs specific? What would it be called?

If you mean installing freetype for my Linux system (not just emacs), it IS
already installed, and bitstream vera sans mono already looks great,
except (among others) in emacs.


later
Peter

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Aidan Kehoe]

 Ar an ceathrú lá déag de mí Márta, scríobh Peter Petersen: 

 > Frank Schmitt <usereplyto2005@frank-schmitt.net> writes:
 > 
 > > You could try to get a freetype library with truetype hinting enabled,
 > > perhaps Bitstream Vera Sans Mono looks better then.
 > 
 > Hm, sorry, I don't understand what this means in practice... Do you
 > think of something emacs specific? What would it be called?
 > 
 > If you mean installing freetype for my Linux system (not just emacs), it IS
 > already installed, and bitstream vera sans mono already looks great,
 > except (among others) in emacs.

Your other applications are using the Xft library, which Is And Ever Shall
Be better-looking than traditional server-side X11 fonts. There’s a CVS
branch of XEmacs that incorporates support for this library; I don’t
recommend using it, because it has yet to be released, but if you’re feeling
adventurous and don’t mind beta software THAT MAY CRASH, that is an
option.
http://www.google.com/groups?threadm=16866.35903.905008.699978%40parhasard.net
for some details on it. 

GNU Emacs certainly doesn’t have it in CVS, but it may have a patch kicking
around.

What Frank Schmitt is talking about is the TrueType bytecode interpreter,
part of the TrueType specification.  Because Apple has a patent on this
technology in the US, most Linux distributions ship with that functionality
turned off in FreeType. When enabled for the server-side font renderer, and
when using fonts that support these bytecode hints, display is improved,
though not to the level of Xft. 

-- 
“I, for instance, am gung-ho about open source because my family is being
held hostage in Rob Malda’s basement. But who fact-checks me, or Enderle,
when we say something in public? No-one!” -- Danny O’Brien

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Aidan Kehoe]

 Ar an ceathrú lá déag de mí Márta, scríobh Aidan Kehoe: 

 > Your other applications are using the Xft library, which Is And Ever Shall
 > Be better-looking than traditional server-side X11 fonts. There’s a CVS
 > branch of XEmacs that incorporates support for this library; I don’t
 > recommend using it, because it has yet to be released, but if you’re feeling
 > adventurous and don’t mind beta software THAT MAY CRASH, that is an
 > option.
 > http://www.google.com/groups?threadm=16866.35903.905008.699978%40parhasard.net
 > for some details on it. 

Here’s what it looks like in Gnus: 

http://www.parhasard.net/aidan-gnus-sjt-xft-2005-03-02.png

-- 
“I, for instance, am gung-ho about open source because my family is being
held hostage in Rob Malda’s basement. But who fact-checks me, or Enderle,
when we say something in public? No-one!” -- Danny O’Brien

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Peter Petersen]

Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> writes:

> Your other applications are using the Xft library, which Is And Ever Shall
> Be better-looking than traditional server-side X11 fonts. There’s a CVS
> branch of XEmacs that incorporates support for this library; I don’t

o.k., but I use emacs, not xemacs, though I don't really know what are
pros and cons of those two alternatives.


> GNU Emacs certainly doesn’t have it in CVS, but it may have a patch kicking
> around.

Well, found one site but the link to the patch is dysfunctional


> What Frank Schmitt is talking about is the TrueType bytecode interpreter,
> part of the TrueType specification.  Because Apple has a patent on this
> technology in the US, most Linux distributions ship with that functionality
> turned off in FreeType. When enabled for the server-side font renderer, and
> when using fonts that support these bytecode hints, display is improved,
> though not to the level of Xft. 

Thanks for explaining that.
Seems I am stuck with more or less ugly fonts then. :-(

I did some google searching for good monospace fonts to use with
emacs. But basically I didn't get one step forward. "terminus" has
already been mentioned, but like I said, I don't like it better than my
monotype-courier new, which is only a sad compromise.

If someone still knows of good fixed width fonts for emacs, please, let
me know.


thanks again
Peter

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Aidan Kehoe]

 Ar an ceathrú lá déag de mí Márta, scríobh Peter Petersen: 

 > [...] o.k., but I use emacs, not xemacs, though I don't really know what
 > are pros and cons of those two alternatives.

If that is the case--and I may be jumped on and abducted by GNU Emacs people
for suggesting this--then you probably won’t notice the difference if you
switch, and certainly ten minutes’ informed configuration will eliminate
anything that annoys you.

That said, as I put it before, the XEmacs Xft branch is beta software and
may crash for you.

-- 
“I, for instance, am gung-ho about open source because my family is being
held hostage in Rob Malda’s basement. But who fact-checks me, or Enderle,
when we say something in public? No-one!” -- Danny O’Brien

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Jochem Huhmann]

Peter Petersen <ppetersen@despammed.com> writes:

> If someone still knows of good fixed width fonts for emacs, please, let
> me know.

I'm using Lucidatypewriter which is (for me) as good as it gets. No
italics, though.


        Jochem

-- 
 "A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no 
 longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
 - Antoine de Saint-Exupery 

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Miles Bader]

Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> writes:
>  > [...] o.k., but I use emacs, not xemacs, though I don't really know what
>  > are pros and cons of those two alternatives.
>
> If that is the case--and I may be jumped on and abducted by GNU Emacs people
> for suggesting this--then you probably won’t notice the difference if you
> switch, and certainly ten minutes’ informed configuration will eliminate
> anything that annoys you.

This is probably true for "casual" users -- from 10 yards away, they are
very similar.  If you're more a hacker-type with lots of customizations
and attention paid to getting all the little details just-so, switching
may well drive you bat-shit crazy.

-Miles
-- 
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're
just making him madder and madder." -- Homer Simpson

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Miles Bader]

Jochem Huhmann <joh@gmx.net> writes:
>> If someone still knows of good fixed width fonts for emacs, please, let
>> me know.
>
> I'm using Lucidatypewriter which is (for me) as good as it gets. No
> italics, though.

Hmm, an oddball choice perhaps, but I really like it:  Shinonome-Gothic

[On Debian this seems to come from one of the two packages
`xfonts-shinonome' or `ttf-kochi-gothic'; I'm not entirely sure which
though.  I presume the former is a bitmap version, which Emacs will
presumably favor.]

For getting freefont to do auto-hinting (which can really, REALLY help
-- some fonts look about a million times better -- but the vera fonts
already have great hinting, so they probably won't look any different),
there are various ways I think.  On Debian it depends on the age of your
installation, but the following should work I think:

Put, in /etc/fonts/local.conf:

   <?xml version="1.0"?>
   <!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM "fonts.dtd">
   <fontconfig>
     <include ignore_missing="yes">/var/lib/defoma/fontconfig.d/fonts.conf</include>
     <match target="font">
       <edit name="autohint" mode="assign">
         <bool>true</bool>
       </edit>
     </match>
   </fontconfig>

[You may already have that file with the lines between
<match> and </match> commented out; if so, uncomment them.]

In very recent versions of the Debian fontconfig package, there's a more
convenient system which involves making symlinks in the
/etc/fonts/conf.d directory[*], but I think the local.conf method is
still supported.

[*]  Basically choose which option you like from the named choices in
that directory, and make a symlink to it in the same directory with the
symlink name beginning with two digits.

-Miles
-- 
[|nurgle|]  ddt- demonic? so quake will have an evil kinda setting? one that
            will  make every christian in the world foamm at the mouth?
[iddt]      nurg, that's the goal

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Frank Thieme]

On So 13 Mär 2005 15:22, Peter Petersen <ppetersen@despammed.com> writes:
> Is there anyone who uses that font in emacs and who uses it as a
> non-bold font?

Seems like you have the same problem as I have. I use the default fixed
font size 13 as I still haven't found any useful other font in the right
size. (I'm using 1024x768 on a 12 inch TFT).

Terminus looks great, but the newer size 12 is too small, and 14 is
somewhat big. And it is missing some chars which are there in fixed.

Some other fonts I tried are right in size, but doesn't look better than
fixed.

There must be some nice font (for programmers) out there ;)

Bye...Frank

-- 
Smoking is one of the leading causes of statistics.
		-- Fletcher Knebel

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Stefan Monnier]

> If someone still knows of good fixed width fonts for emacs, please, let
> me know.

What's wrong with -misc-fixed-*-semicondensed--13-* ?


        Stefan

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Frank Thieme]

On Di 15 Mär 2005 20:25, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> If someone still knows of good fixed width fonts for emacs, please, let
>> me know.
>
> What's wrong with -misc-fixed-*-semicondensed--13-* ?

Nothing if you read text, but try to seperate 1lI and O0 if there is no
real context (as you may have in different program codes).

At least O and 0 ist clearly seperatet in Terminus, just l and 1 look
very similar.

Bye...Frank

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> If someone still knows of good fixed width fonts for emacs, please, let
>>> me know.
>> 
>> What's wrong with -misc-fixed-*-semicondensed--13-* ?

> Nothing if you read text, but try to seperate 1lI and O0 if there is no
> real context (as you may have in different program codes).

They look fairly different here.  But maybe it's just me,


        Stefan

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Peter K. Lee]

Not sure if this is an option, but when I ran into the same problem, I
ended up using 'emacs -nw'

Use a terminal emulator (i.e. gnome-terminal, rxvt, etc.) that has Xft
support, and run emacs in non-windows mode.

This way, you can even get transparency that comes with the terminal. :)

It *does* take getting used to though...

Cheers,

Peter

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Neil Woods]

On Mon, Mar 14 2005, Peter Petersen wrote:

> I did some google searching for good monospace fonts to use with
> emacs. But basically I didn't get one step forward. "terminus" has
> already been mentioned, but like I said, I don't like it better than
> my monotype-courier new, which is only a sad compromise.
>
> If someone still knows of good fixed width fonts for emacs, please,
> let me know.

I'm very pleased with standard adobe-courier, which gives me *bold* and
/italic/ as well as combinations thereof.

I have the following set in ~/.Xdefaults:

!! Nice fontset with a Courier typeface:
Emacs*Fontset-1:-adobe-courier-medium-r-normal-*-17-*-*-*-*-*-fontset-courier,\
mule-unicode-2500-33ff:-gnu-unifont-*-*-*-*-16-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1,\
mule-unicode-e000-ffff:-gnu-unifont-*-*-*-*-16-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1,\
mule-unicode-0100-24ff:-gnu-unifont-*-*-*-*-16-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1

The mule-unicode fonts are useful to provide neat threading characters
in the summary buffer.

The above render well on my 17" TFT monitor at 1280x1024. 

I've also tried terminus, but the italic rendering is very poor (in
Debian package xfonts-terminus-oblique), so I don't use that anymore.
-- 
Neil

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Peter Petersen]

Peter K. Lee <saint@corenova.com> writes:

> Not sure if this is an option, but when I ran into the same problem, I
> ended up using 'emacs -nw'
>
> Use a terminal emulator (i.e. gnome-terminal, rxvt, etc.) that has Xft
> support, and run emacs in non-windows mode.

This is a great tip! :-)

Especially when combined with "gnome-terminal". Finally "bitstream vera
sans mono" looks very nice and the font size can be varied in a very
flexible way. Moreover, colours can easily be dimmed or changed in other
ways thanks to all the easy settings of "gnome-terminal".

Well, I miss the mouse a little bit and the normal menu bar, but hey, it
isn't a tragic loss... Anyway I had used emacs before on a text console,
so it is not that much of a learning process.

Thanks as well to all the other posters and their font suggestions.


Peter

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Peter Petersen]

Hm, I just got one problem with running emacs in gnome-terminal. :-(

I lost the specific German characters (Umlaute äöü) and ß.

Why is that?


If I just launch gnome-terminal (with the same font "bitstream vera sans
mono") I do have all the German characters, the same is true if I launch
emacs from within a text console or from within an xterm.

What could I do to find out where the problem is? (launching emacs from
within gnome-terminal and losing all the non-ascii characters)


thanks for any help
Peter

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Aidan Kehoe]

 Ar an chéad lá is fiche de mí Márta, scríobh Peter Petersen: 

 > If I just launch gnome-terminal (with the same font "bitstream vera sans
 > mono") I do have all the German characters, the same is true if I launch
 > emacs from within a text console or from within an xterm.
 > 
 > What could I do to find out where the problem is? (launching emacs from
 > within gnome-terminal and losing all the non-ascii characters)

You need to work out what character encoding gnome-terminal is using, and
then run M-x set-terminal-coding-system RET iso-8859-1 RET, for
example. It’ll be either that or utf-8. Once you’ve worked out which is
right, add

(set-terminal-coding-system 'utf-8)

to your ~/.emacs. 

-- 
“I, for instance, am gung-ho about open source because my family is being
held hostage in Rob Malda’s basement. But who fact-checks me, or Enderle,
when we say something in public? No-one!” -- Danny O’Brien

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Peter Petersen]

Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> writes:

>  > What could I do to find out where the problem is? (launching emacs from
>  > within gnome-terminal and losing all the non-ascii characters)
>
> You need to work out what character encoding gnome-terminal is using, and
> then run M-x set-terminal-coding-system RET iso-8859-1 RET, for
> example. It’ll be either that or utf-8. Once you’ve worked out which is
> right, add
>
> (set-terminal-coding-system 'utf-8)
>
> to your ~/.emacs. 


Unfortunately, this doesn't change anything...

What I found, however:
It seems to be related to the TERM environment variable.
If I launch gnome-terminal and do a "export TERM=linux" and then launch
emacs -nw I am not only able to see the "Umlaute" but I am also able to
type them (just like on the virtual text console).

Though not everything is perfect - for instance, in your above post
apostrophes are replaced by question marks...

Strange, if instead of emacs -nw I launch "vi" or lots of other programs
in the same kind of "gnome-terminal" (with a TERM setting of TERM=xterm)
I am able to type non-ascii German characters, not so with emacs.

Ideas?


Peter

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Johan Bockgård]

Peter Petersen <ppetersen@despammed.com> writes:

>> (set-terminal-coding-system 'utf-8)
>
> Unfortunately, this doesn't change anything...

set-keyboard-coding-system

-- 
Johan Bockgård

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Frank Thieme]

On Mi 16 Mär 2005 04:39, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>>>> If someone still knows of good fixed width fonts for emacs, please, let
>>>> me know.
>>> 
>>> What's wrong with -misc-fixed-*-semicondensed--13-* ?
>
>> Nothing if you read text, but try to seperate 1lI and O0 if there is no
>> real context (as you may have in different program codes).
>
> They look fairly different here.  But maybe it's just me,

Ok, I was wrong. default is not -misc-fixed but some courier font. Now I
switched to -misc-fixed and it's really different. 

I changed the 0 to include a slash and I'm nearly happy ;)

Bye...Frank

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Stefan Monnier]

> Well, I miss the mouse a little bit and the normal menu bar, but hey, it
> isn't a tragic loss... Anyway I had used emacs before on a text console,
> so it is not that much of a learning process.

Have you tried M-x xterm-mouse-mode ?
It's not the same as the normal mouse support, but it's an OK approximation.


        Stefan

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Peter Petersen]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> Well, I miss the mouse a little bit and the normal menu bar, but hey, it
>> isn't a tragic loss... Anyway I had used emacs before on a text console,
>> so it is not that much of a learning process.
>
> Have you tried M-x xterm-mouse-mode ?
> It's not the same as the normal mouse support, but it's an OK approximation.


Hi, Stefan,

thanks for this hint, I didn't know about xterm-mouse-mode. It's better
than nothing, though the menu doesn't really work very well (whatever I
hit with my mouse (file, edit, options, buffers, tools...), I get the
same result as when I just use the keyboard.

Nevertheless, it is a step forward.

Next question:
I am not that well informed about gnus or emacs yet, how do I autoload
xterm-mouse-mode, what entry should there be in my .emacs?


thanks again
Peter

Re: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus

[Donald Arseneau]

Peter Petersen <ppetersen@despammed.com> writes:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
> > Have you tried M-x xterm-mouse-mode ?
>  how do I autoload xterm-mouse-mode

I too would like an answer.  

emacs -nw -f xterm-mouse-mode

gives errors 
Wrong number of arguments: #[(arg) "^H\204^H^@...

-- 
Donald Arseneau                          asnd@triumf.ca

xterm-mouse-mode (was: bitstream vera sans mono ugly in gnus)

[Reiner Steib]

On Tue, Mar 29 2005, Donald Arseneau wrote:

> Peter Petersen <ppetersen@despammed.com> writes:
>
>> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>> > Have you tried M-x xterm-mouse-mode ?
>>  how do I autoload xterm-mouse-mode
>
> I too would like an answer.  
>
> emacs -nw -f xterm-mouse-mode
>
> gives errors 
> Wrong number of arguments: #[(arg) "^H\204^H^@...

emacs -nw --eval '(xterm-mouse-mode 1)'

Or put something like (unless window-system (xterm-mouse-mode 1))
in your init file.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

trouble with emacs -nw -f gnus and character sets

[Peter Petersen]

* Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> schrieb:

>  Ar an chéad lá is fiche de mí Márta, scríobh Peter Petersen: 
>
>  > If I just launch gnome-terminal (with the same font "bitstream vera sans
>  > mono") I do have all the German characters, the same is true if I launch
>  > emacs from within a text console or from within an xterm.
>  > 
>  > What could I do to find out where the problem is? (launching emacs from
>  > within gnome-terminal and losing all the non-ascii characters)
>
> You need to work out what character encoding gnome-terminal is using, and
> then run M-x set-terminal-coding-system RET iso-8859-1 RET, for
> example. It’ll be either that or utf-8. Once you’ve worked out which is
> right, add
>
> (set-terminal-coding-system 'utf-8)
>
> to your ~/.emacs. 


Hello and sorry for replying to an "old" post, but...

I still have lots of trouble when using gnus from within a terminal
program, such as "gnome-terminal".

I am able to write the euro sign and to see the euro sign in other
people's posts. By the way: Is this an euro sign? € € €

I also see Umlaute, äöü and other special characters: ß éèêñ
I am able to write them, and hopefully they can be seen correctly by
others.

But your posts, Aidan, don't show up correctly here. You should see some
of the problems in my quoting you: Apostrophes are not displayed as they
should, instead I see them as question marks. Must be due to your using
utf-8.

But after searching google for hours, I feel completely lost.
What could I do to see other people's posts correctly, regardless
whether they use iso-8859-1, iso-8859-15 or utf-8 (those that appear to
be most important to me).

This is with Emacs 21.3.1 and Gnus 5.10.6 - running via emacs -nw, in a
terminal window.

When I use the "graphical" Emacs (instead of emacs -nw) your posts are
all right, Aidan.


So where could I look in order to solve that nasty problem?

As I already wrote before, I have to set TERM=linux in order to be able
to write the euro sign and Umlaute. I have set gnome-terminal to
iso-8859-1 (and also to utf-8), but this is not enough to solve the
issue.


Please help me here, Aidan or some other expert like Reiner Steib. :-)

many thanks
Peter

Re: trouble with emacs -nw -f gnus and character sets

[Peter Petersen]

* Peter Petersen <ppetersen@despammed.com> schrieb:

> I still have lots of trouble when using gnus from within a terminal
> program, such as "gnome-terminal".
>
> I am able to write the euro sign and to see the euro sign in other
> people's posts. By the way: Is this an euro sign? € € €
>
> I also see Umlaute, äöü and other special characters: ß éèêñ
> I am able to write them, and hopefully they can be seen correctly by
> others.
>
> But your posts, Aidan, don't show up correctly here. You should see some
> of the problems in my quoting you: Apostrophes are not displayed as they
> should, instead I see them as question marks. Must be due to your using
> utf-8.
> <...>
> When I use the "graphical" Emacs (instead of emacs -nw) your posts are
> all right, Aidan.


Well, like so many times before :) I reply to my own post.

The problem seems to be solved!

But it was tricky.

Here are the necessary steps that solved the problem:

1) setting gnome-terminal to use utf-8

AND

2) customizing emacs to produce an entry in .emacs like this:
   '(keyboard-coding-system (quote utf-8) nil nil "nil before,
   now utf-8."))

AND

3) unfortunately, there was nothing to customize for
   terminal-coding-system, therefore I had lots of trouble to find the
   correct entry to add to .emacs
   Well, I found that this works:
   (set-terminal-coding-system 'utf-8)
   (thanks to Johan Bockgård, who mentioned this in a post some time
   ago)


Now everything displays correctly.
And if my own characters arrive o.k. at the other side, I am happy -
well, for now, at least. :)


Is this an euro sign? €

Are these the Swedish special characters? å ä ö
The German Umlaute? ä ö ü
The German "sharp S"? ß
The Icelandic th-sounds (thorn and eth)? þ ð
The French Accents? é è ê 
and French cédille? ç
The Spanish tilde? ñ
An apostrophe?  it's an apostrophe


If everything looks all right, please tell me, but otherwise, too.


Regards
Peter

Re: trouble with emacs -nw -f gnus and character sets

[Steinar Børmer]

Peter Petersen wrote:

| Is this an euro sign? €
| 
| Are these the Swedish special characters? å ä ö
| The German Umlaute? ä ö ü
| The German "sharp S"? ß
| The Icelandic th-sounds (thorn and eth)? þ ð
| The French Accents? é è ê 
| and French cédille? ç
| The Spanish tilde? ñ
| An apostrophe?  it's an apostrophe

These look just fine here.  =)

-- 
SB

Re: trouble with emacs -nw -f gnus and character sets

[Steinar Børmer]

Steinar Børmer wrote:

| Peter Petersen wrote:
| 
| | Is this an euro sign? €
| | 
| | Are these the Swedish special characters? å ä ö
| | The German Umlaute? ä ö ü
| | The German "sharp S"? ß
| | The Icelandic th-sounds (thorn and eth)? þ ð
| | The French Accents? é è ê 
| | and French cédille? ç
| | The Spanish tilde? ñ
| | An apostrophe?  it's an apostrophe
| 
| These look just fine here.  =)

Hmmm.  Why did Gnus switch to UTF-8 in this posting?

-- 
SB

thanks, but new problem: utf-8 on a virtual text console

[Peter Petersen]

* steinab@ifi.uio.no (Steinar Børmer) schrieb:

> | Is this an euro sign? €
> | 
> | Are these the Swedish special characters? å ä ö
> | The German Umlaute? ä ö ü
> | The German "sharp S"? ß
> | The Icelandic th-sounds (thorn and eth)? þ ð
> | The French Accents? é è ê 
> | and French cédille? ç
> | The Spanish tilde? ñ
> | An apostrophe?  it's an apostrophe
>
> These look just fine here.  =)


Thanks. So it appears to work.

Unfortunately, once _one_ problem is solved, the next one is waiting at
the door. ;-)

With my utf-8 settings for using gnus with gnome-terminal, I get a
complete mess when running emacs or gnus in a virtual text
console. Somehow I can't get it to use utf-8. If someone knows about a
way to change this or - alternatively - can tell me how to write an
entry in .emacs to switch between coding systems if emacs is used on a
text console in contrast to a terminal under X Window, please let me
know.

Something like:
if text console -> then use iso-8859-15
if X Window -> then use utf-8

Sorry, but I know close to nothing about lisp statements and such things.

Perhaps a hierarchy of coding systems (preferences of iso-8859-15, then
utf-8, then iso-8859-1 etc.) would also do... But I am clueless as to
how to achieve this.



Regards
Peter

Re: thanks, but new problem: utf-8 on a virtual text console

[TeXitoi]

Peter Petersen <ppetersen@despammed.com> writes:

> With my utf-8 settings for using gnus with gnome-terminal, I get a
> complete mess when running emacs or gnus in a virtual text
> console. Somehow I can't get it to use utf-8. If someone knows about a
> way to change this or - alternatively - can tell me how to write an
> entry in .emacs to switch between coding systems if emacs is used on a
> text console in contrast to a terminal under X Window, please let me
> know.

I supose that your problem is about typing non-ascii charactere. I'd
the problem for typing, but not for display (display depend of your
local). To input, I have that in my .emacs :

(if (not (eq window-system 'x))
    (cond ((string-match ".UTF-8" (getenv "LANG"))
           (set-keyboard-coding-system 'utf-8))
          ((string-match "@euro" (getenv "LANG"))
           (set-keyboard-coding-system 'latin-0))
          (t (set-keyboard-coding-system 'latin-1))))

you can adapt that to yours needs.

-- 
Guillaume Pinot                          http://wwwetu.utc.fr/~pinotgui/

« L'amour, c'est comme le nombre Pi. Naturel, irrationnel et très
important. » -- Lisa Hoffman

() Campagne du ruban ascii -- contre les mails en html
/\ Contre les pièces jointes Microsoft

coding system for outgoing messages (was: thanks, but new problem: utf-8 on a virtual text console)

[Reiner Steib]

On Wed, Apr 06 2005, Peter Petersen wrote:

> Perhaps a hierarchy of coding systems (preferences of iso-8859-15, then
> utf-8, then iso-8859-1 etc.) would also do... But I am clueless as to
> how to achieve this.

For articles you send?

,----[ (info "(emacs-mime)Encoding Customization") ]
| `mm-coding-system-priorities'
|      Prioritize coding systems to use for outgoing messages.  The
|      default is `nil', which means to use the defaults in Emacs.  It is
|      a list of coding system symbols (aliases of coding systems are
|      also allowed, use `M-x describe-coding-system' to make sure you
|      are specifying correct coding system names).  For example, if you
|      have configured Emacs to prefer UTF-8, but wish that outgoing
|      messages should be sent in ISO-8859-1 if possible, you can set
|      this variable to `(iso-8859-1)'.
`----

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: thanks, but new problem: utf-8 on a virtual text console

[Peter Petersen]

* TeXitoi <texitoi@NOSPAMtexitoi.homelinux.org> schrieb:

> Peter Petersen <ppetersen@despammed.com> writes:
>
>> With my utf-8 settings for using gnus with gnome-terminal, I get a
>> complete mess when running emacs or gnus in a virtual text
>> console. Somehow I can't get it to use utf-8. If someone knows about a
>> way to change this or - alternatively - can tell me how to write an
>> entry in .emacs to switch between coding systems if emacs is used on a
>> text console in contrast to a terminal under X Window, please let me
>> know.
>
> I supose that your problem is about typing non-ascii charactere. I'd
> the problem for typing, but not for display (display depend of your
> local). To input, I have that in my .emacs :
>
> (if (not (eq window-system 'x))
>     (cond ((string-match ".UTF-8" (getenv "LANG"))
>            (set-keyboard-coding-system 'utf-8))
>           ((string-match "@euro" (getenv "LANG"))
>            (set-keyboard-coding-system 'latin-0))
>           (t (set-keyboard-coding-system 'latin-1))))
>
> you can adapt that to yours needs.

Ok thanks, but I don't get any further.
And: I am not using "window system" anyway, when running emacs from
within a gnome-terminal, right...?

Due to my lack of knowledge about these things, I use that ugly command
line, called as a bash script, of course:

LC_ALL=de_DE.UTF-8@euro gnome-terminal -e "emacs -nw --eval
'(xterm-mouse-mode 1)' -f gnus-unplugged "$@"" || emacs -nw --eval
"(set-terminal-coding-system 'latin-9)" --eval "(set-keyboard-codin
g-system 'latin-9)" --eval '(xterm-mouse-mode 1)' -f gnus-unplugged
"$@"


Sure, this looks _very_ amateurish. :)
But it works sufficiently, which, as you can see, gives me full utf-8
support when running emacs/gnus in a gnome-terminal when in X, while
giving me iso-8859-1 support when running emacs/gnus in a virtual text
console.

By support I mean: support for typing _and_ getting displayed Umlaute,
euro signs etc.


Naturally, suggestions for improvements, or rather, "professional" and
not that dilletantish solutions are always very welcome. ;-)


Regards
Peter

Re: coding system for outgoing messages (was: thanks, but new problem: utf-8 on a virtual text console)

[TeXitoi]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+from-uce@imap.cc> writes:

> On Wed, Apr 06 2005, Peter Petersen wrote:
> 
> > Perhaps a hierarchy of coding systems (preferences of iso-8859-15, then
> > utf-8, then iso-8859-1 etc.) would also do... But I am clueless as to
> > how to achieve this.
> 
> For articles you send?
> 
> ,----[ (info "(emacs-mime)Encoding Customization") ]
> | `mm-coding-system-priorities'

Aidan Kehoe (thank you) have sent me to use

(setq mm-coding-system-priorities '(iso-8859-1 iso-8859-15 utf-8))

(so the same thing), but I have that in my .emacs, emacs was reloaded,
and this post is in utf-8 :(

-- 
Guillaume Pinot                          http://wwwetu.utc.fr/~pinotgui/

« L'amour, c'est comme le nombre Pi. Naturel, irrationnel et très
important. » -- Lisa Hoffman

() Campagne du ruban ascii -- contre les mails en html
/\ Contre les pièces jointes Microsoft

Re: coding system for outgoing messages

[Peter Petersen]

* TeXitoi <texitoi@NOSPAMtexitoi.homelinux.org> schrieb:

>> For articles you send?
>> 
>> ,----[ (info "(emacs-mime)Encoding Customization") ]
>> | `mm-coding-system-priorities'
>
> Aidan Kehoe (thank you) have sent me to use
>
> (setq mm-coding-system-priorities '(iso-8859-1 iso-8859-15 utf-8))
>
> (so the same thing), but I have that in my .emacs, emacs was reloaded,
> and this post is in utf-8 :(

Now let's see...

I just added (setq mm-coding-system-priorities '(iso-8859-1 iso-8859-15
utf-8)) to my .emacs and did some testing, it seems to work all right.


Peter

Re: coding system for outgoing messages

[Reiner Steib]

On Wed, Apr 06 2005, TeXitoi wrote:

> (setq mm-coding-system-priorities '(iso-8859-1 iso-8859-15 utf-8))
>
> (so the same thing), but I have that in my .emacs, emacs was reloaded,
> and this post is in utf-8 :(

In your Gnus version (Gnus 5.9 from Emacs 21.[34]) need Emacs coding
systems names (`mule-utf-8', `iso-latin-*', ...) instead of MIME
charset names (`utf-8', `iso-8859-*', ...) in
`mm-coding-system-priorities'.  As this behavior obviously is
irritating, we have fixed it to allow both in the 5.10.x series.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: coding system for outgoing messages

[TeXitoi]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+from-uce@imap.cc> writes:

> On Wed, Apr 06 2005, TeXitoi wrote:
> 
> > (setq mm-coding-system-priorities '(iso-8859-1 iso-8859-15 utf-8))
> >
> > (so the same thing), but I have that in my .emacs, emacs was reloaded,
> > and this post is in utf-8 :(
> 
> In your Gnus version (Gnus 5.9 from Emacs 21.[34]) need Emacs coding
> systems names (`mule-utf-8', `iso-latin-*', ...) instead of MIME
> charset names (`utf-8', `iso-8859-*', ...) in
> `mm-coding-system-priorities'.  As this behavior obviously is
> irritating, we have fixed it to allow both in the 5.10.x series.

thanks a lot, it (almost) work : I've

(setq mm-coding-system-priorities
      '(iso-latin-1 iso-latin-9 mule-utf-8))

that work for latin-0 and latin-9, but if I post in japanese, it's in
shift-jp (I think, I'm not expert in japanese codings), and if I mix
accents and japanese charset, it want to user différent mime part. an
idea to fix this (cosmetic) problem?

-- 
Guillaume Pinot                          http://wwwetu.utc.fr/~pinotgui/

« L'amour, c'est comme le nombre Pi. Naturel, irrationnel et très
important. » -- Lisa Hoffman

() Campagne du ruban ascii -- contre les mails en html
/\ Contre les pièces jointes Microsoft

Re: coding system for outgoing messages

[Reiner Steib]

On Thu, Apr 07 2005, TeXitoi wrote:

> (setq mm-coding-system-priorities
>       '(iso-latin-1 iso-latin-9 mule-utf-8))
>
> that work for latin-0 and latin-9, but if I post in japanese, it's in
> shift-jp (I think, I'm not expert in japanese codings), and if I mix
> accents and japanese charset, it want to user différent mime part. an
> idea to fix this (cosmetic) problem?

AFAIK this is not possible with Emacs 21.  Emacs 22 (not released; you
may try to built from CVS) has `utf-translate-cjk-mode' which should
do what you want (but I'm no expert on CJK, so I might be wrong).

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: coding system for outgoing messages

[TeXitoi]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+from-uce@imap.cc> writes:

> On Thu, Apr 07 2005, TeXitoi wrote:
> 
> > (setq mm-coding-system-priorities
> >       '(iso-latin-1 iso-latin-9 mule-utf-8))
> >
> > that work for latin-0 and latin-9, but if I post in japanese, it's in
> > shift-jp (I think, I'm not expert in japanese codings), and if I mix
> > accents and japanese charset, it want to user différent mime part. an
> > idea to fix this (cosmetic) problem?
> 
> AFAIK this is not possible with Emacs 21.  Emacs 22 (not released; you
> may try to built from CVS) has `utf-translate-cjk-mode' which should
> do what you want (but I'm no expert on CJK, so I might be wrong).

Thanks a lot for your help. I don't really use japanese, so I'll wait
emacs 22 or to learn japanese ;-)

-- 
Guillaume Pinot                          http://wwwetu.utc.fr/~pinotgui/

« L'amour, c'est comme le nombre Pi. Naturel, irrationnel et très
important. » -- Lisa Hoffman

() Campagne du ruban ascii -- contre les mails en html
/\ Contre les pièces jointes Microsoft