Re: Make `r` and `F` behave as `S L` when replying to a message from a mailing list

Re: Make `r` and `F` behave as `S L` when replying to a message from a mailing list

[Damien Wyart]

[ copy & fu2 gnus.emacs.gnus]

* Denis Bitouzé <dbitouze@wanadoo.fr> in gnu.emacs.help:
> I've just been told that when I reply (`r` or `F`) to a message from
> a mailing list, the `To` is the original message sender's address
> instead of the mailing list address, the latter being in the `Cc`
> field.

> It appears that it should be enough to use `S L` to get the expected
> behavior (the mailing list address in the `To` field, nothing in
> `Cc`), but I'd like a unique keybinding for all the "reply" actions.

> Hence my question: how could I make `r` and `F` behave as `S L` when
> replying to a message from a mailing list?

If the lists have their own Gnus groups, I think the simplest solution
is to play with the corresponding group parameter to-address (and
broken-reply-to if needed). See:
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Group-Parameters.html

Else writing a custom replying function might be needed but I don't
think there exists a predefined funtion to check if a message is from
a mailing-list (checking List-Id and X-Mailing-List might be enough,
though).

-- 
DW

Re: Make `r` and `F` behave as `S L` when replying to a message from a mailing list

[Denis Bitouzé]

Le 06/11/14 à 16h08, Damien Wyart <damien.wyart@free.fr> a écrit :

> [ copy & fu2 gnus.emacs.gnus]
>
> * Denis Bitouzé <dbitouze@wanadoo.fr> in gnu.emacs.help:
>> I've just been told that when I reply (`r` or `F`) to a message from
>> a mailing list, the `To` is the original message sender's address
>> instead of the mailing list address, the latter being in the `Cc`
>> field.
>
>> It appears that it should be enough to use `S L` to get the expected
>> behavior (the mailing list address in the `To` field, nothing in
>> `Cc`), but I'd like a unique keybinding for all the "reply" actions.
>
>> Hence my question: how could I make `r` and `F` behave as `S L` when
>> replying to a message from a mailing list?
>
> If the lists have their own Gnus groups,

What do you mean by "Gnus" groups? Newsgroups, as provided by gmane for
instance?

> I think the simplest solution is to play with the corresponding group
> parameter to-address (and broken-reply-to if needed). See:
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Group-Parameters.html

Unfortunately, some of the lists I'm subscribed to don't have any
newsgroup counterpart.

> Else writing a custom replying function might be needed

Sigh...

> but I don't think there exists a predefined funtion to check if
> a message is from a mailing-list

Sigh...

> (checking List-Id and X-Mailing-List might be enough, though).

A further check of the list's headers puzzled me: `Reply-To:` is the
list address, not the sender's one. Why Gnus doesn't take it into
account when I reply with `r` or `F`?

Thanks.
-- 
Denis


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Re: Make `r` and `F` behave as `S L` when replying to a message from a mailing list

[Damien Wyart]

* Denis Bitouzé <dbitouze@wanadoo.fr> in gnu.emacs.gnus:
> What do you mean by "Gnus" groups? Newsgroups, as provided by gmane
> for instance?

No, the notion of group in Gnus also applies to email messages. It is
just a container of messages, either stored locally or accessed through
IMAP for mails, or read via NNTP for News (the Agent also plays a role
by caching locally, but let's keep things simple :).

If you use Gnus to read email, you use mail groups, even if you do not
know it :).

See for example:
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Splitting-Mail.html
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Choosing-a-Mail-Back-End.html
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Using-IMAP.html

> > I think the simplest solution is to play with the corresponding group
> > parameter to-address (and broken-reply-to if needed). See:
> > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Group-Parameters.html

> Unfortunately, some of the lists I'm subscribed to don't have any
> newsgroup counterpart.

How do you read them? If each list doesn't have its own group, you might
need to configure splitting. Having a group per list is very convenient.

> A further check of the list's headers puzzled me: `Reply-To:` is the
> list address, not the sender's one. Why Gnus doesn't take it into
> account when I reply with `r` or `F`?

r is explicitely to reply to the author.
Mail-Followup-To is stronger:
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/message/Mailing-Lists.html

This discussion might also be interesting:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/fr.comp.applications.emacs/gnus$20reply-to/fr.comp.applications.emacs/gkgqR88EJc8/Rf00vPL4__8J

-- 
DW

Re: Make `r` and `F` behave as `S L` when replying to a message from a mailing list

[Denis Bitouzé]

Le 07/11/14 à 10h09, Damien Wyart <damien.wyart@free.fr> a écrit :

> * Denis Bitouzé <dbitouze@wanadoo.fr> in gnu.emacs.gnus:
>> What do you mean by "Gnus" groups? Newsgroups, as provided by gmane
>> for instance?
>
> No, the notion of group in Gnus also applies to email messages. It is
> just a container of messages, either stored locally or accessed through
> IMAP for mails, or read via NNTP for News (the Agent also plays a role
> by caching locally, but let's keep things simple :).

Okay. That's a feature I like very much, and that I'd like to apply
also for current actions, e.g. to have a single keybinding for replying,
be it to a email or to news articles.

> If you use Gnus to read email, you use mail groups, even if you do not
> know it :).

With that definition of groups, I already knew that :)

> See for example:
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Splitting-Mail.html
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Choosing-a-Mail-Back-End.html
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Using-IMAP.html
>
>> > I think the simplest solution is to play with the corresponding group
>> > parameter to-address (and broken-reply-to if needed). See:
>> > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Group-Parameters.html
>
>> Unfortunately, some of the lists I'm subscribed to don't have any
>> newsgroup counterpart.
>
> How do you read them?

In my main INBOX group (gmail IMPA).

> If each list doesn't have its own group, you might need to configure
> splitting. Having a group per list is very convenient.

I guess so. I'll have a look at splitting mail.

>> A further check of the list's headers puzzled me: `Reply-To:` is the
>> list address, not the sender's one. Why Gnus doesn't take it into
>> account when I reply with `r` or `F`?
>
> r is explicitely to reply to the author.

Sigh... But, on the gnus refcard, I can see:

  ┌────
  │ S r (r) Mail a reply to the author of this article.
  │ [...]
  │ S B r Like S r but ignore the Reply-To: header.
  └────

so `r` shouldn't ignore the Reply-To: header.

> Mail-Followup-To is stronger:
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/message/Mailing-Lists.html

Okay.

> This discussion might also be interesting:
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/fr.comp.applications.emacs/gnus$20reply-to/fr.comp.applications.emacs/gkgqR88EJc8/Rf00vPL4__8J

Indeed. One of the contributor of this thread (in French) strongly
disagrees with the Reply-To: header but I must admit I don't see what's
his point.
-- 
Denis


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Re: Make `r` and `F` behave as `S L` when replying to a message from a mailing list

[Emanuel Berg]

Denis Bitouzé <dbitouze@wanadoo.fr> writes:

> I guess so. I'll have a look at splitting mail.

Here is an example of how to split - for different
reasons, in including to get individual groups for
listbots. Note though that many listbots are available
as newsgroups so unless you already subscribe in an
unorganized way instead of splitting, I'd find the
"real" groups.

(setq nnmail-split-methods
 '(("zsh"          "^\\(Cc\\|\\(Resent-\\)?To\\):.*zsh-\\(announce\\|workers\\|users\\)@zsh\.org.*")
   ("debian.user"  "^\\(Cc\\|\\(Resent-\\)?To\\):.*debian-user@lists\.debian\.org.*")
   ("cc"           "^\\(Cc\\|\\(Resent-\\)?To\\):.*\\(help-gnu-emacs\\|info-gnus-english\\)@gnu\.org.*")
   ("spam-ooa"     "^\\(Cc\\|\\(Resent-\\)?To\\):.*l4-hackers@os\.inf\.tu-dresden\.de.*")
   ("emacs-w3m"    "^Subject: \\[emacs-w3m.*")
   ("mail.misc"    "") ))

Accidently, you can implement a DWIM `r' and `F' based
on what group you are in = find out with
`gnus-group-group-name' - as in, something like,

(if (member (gnus-group-group-name) '("nnml:mail.sent"
                                      "nndraft:drafts")
                                      ) ...

If you want to stick with the header extraction idea
this might help you:

(defun gnus-article-header-value (header)
  "Get the value of HEADER for the current article."
  (with-current-buffer gnus-original-article-buffer
    (gnus-fetch-field header) ))

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Re: Make `r` and `F` behave as `S L` when replying to a message from a mailing list

[Denis Bitouzé]

Le 07/11/14 à 20h25, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> a écrit :

> Denis Bitouzé <dbitouze@wanadoo.fr> writes:
>
>> I guess so. I'll have a look at splitting mail.
>
> Here is an example of how to split - for different
> reasons, in including to get individual groups for
> listbots. Note though that many listbots are available
> as newsgroups so unless you already subscribe in an
> unorganized way instead of splitting, I'd find the
> "real" groups.
>
> (setq nnmail-split-methods
>  '(("zsh"          "^\\(Cc\\|\\(Resent-\\)?To\\):.*zsh-\\(announce\\|workers\\|users\\)@zsh\.org.*")
>    ("debian.user"  "^\\(Cc\\|\\(Resent-\\)?To\\):.*debian-user@lists\.debian\.org.*")
>    ("cc"           "^\\(Cc\\|\\(Resent-\\)?To\\):.*\\(help-gnu-emacs\\|info-gnus-english\\)@gnu\.org.*")
>    ("spam-ooa"     "^\\(Cc\\|\\(Resent-\\)?To\\):.*l4-hackers@os\.inf\.tu-dresden\.de.*")
>    ("emacs-w3m"    "^Subject: \\[emacs-w3m.*")
>    ("mail.misc"    "") ))

That works nicely, thanks.

> Accidently, you can implement a DWIM `r' and `F'

Meanwhile, I noticed that `R` gives the expected result (To: is the
mailing address). But what is still annoying me is to be careful to the
keybinding I have to use depending on whether I'm answering a mail or
a usenet article.

> based on what group you are in = find out with
> `gnus-group-group-name' - as in, something like,
>
> (if (member (gnus-group-group-name) '("nnml:mail.sent"
>                                       "nndraft:drafts")
>                                       ) ...

Unfortunately, elisp is not my mother tongue. Suppose I'd like to use
`R` as unique keybinding both in `debian.user` group (mailing list) and
in `nntp+gmane:gmane.emacs.gnus.user` group (usenet forum), what would
be the corresponding code?

Thanks in anticipation.

All the best.
-- 
Denis


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Re: Make `r` and `F` behave as `S L` when replying to a message from a mailing list

[Emanuel Berg]

Denis Bitouzé <dbitouze@wanadoo.fr> writes:

> Meanwhile, I noticed that `R` gives the expected
> result (To: is the mailing address). But what is
> still annoying me is to be careful to the keybinding
> I have to use depending on whether I'm answering a
> mail or a usenet article.

Yes, I agree that isn't good. In terms of programming,
it is super-easy to fix as well. It is more an issue
of knowing the domains (mails, listbots, news, and
Gnus), which might not be that easy... like, at all!

> Unfortunately, elisp is not my mother tongue.
> Suppose I'd like to use `R` as unique keybinding
> both in `debian.user` group (mailing list) and in
> `nntp+gmane:gmane.emacs.gnus.user` group (usenet
> forum), what would be the corresponding code?

Again, Elisp doesn't have to be your mother tongue for
this. However, if you are a perfectionist (as I am, so
I'm not criticizing) perhaps you should make it your
mother tongue...

But try this:

(require 'gnus-msg)

(defun gnus-article-reply-dwim ()
  (interactive)
  (if (gnus-article-header-value "X-Mailing-List")
      (gnus-summary-reply-to-list-with-original 1)
    (gnus-article-followup-with-original) ))

(defun gnus-article-header-value (header)
  "Get the value of HEADER for the current article."
  (with-current-buffer gnus-original-article-buffer
    (gnus-fetch-field header) ))

I just wrote and tried it, and it worked for
debian.user (mailing list), alt.test (newsgroup), and
a couple of inbox love letters (ordinary mail). It
will work for ordinary mails and newsgroups, because
that is the plain old
`gnus-article-followup-with-original'. However I'm not
sure if all mailing lists respect the X-Mailing-List
header...? (Could be a place to add more such tests
and OR them.)

Also, I don't know what the 1 argument to
`gnus-summary-reply-to-list-with-original' means
because that isn't in the documentation, and I didn't
feel like tracing it. It probably (?) has to do with
doing things to several messages. I don't know if that
should be 0 or 1 in this case.

Last, `gnus-summary-reply-to-list-with-original' is in
gnus-msg, and not gnus-sum. Just mentioning it as it
looks a bit confusing :)

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Re: Make `r` and `F` behave as `S L` when replying to a message from a mailing list

[Denis Bitouzé]

Le 15/11/14 à 14h20, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> a écrit :

> Denis Bitouzé <dbitouze@wanadoo.fr> writes:
>
>> Meanwhile, I noticed that `R` gives the expected
>> result (To: is the mailing address). But what is
>> still annoying me is to be careful to the keybinding
>> I have to use depending on whether I'm answering a
>> mail or a usenet article.
>
> Yes, I agree that isn't good. In terms of programming,
> it is super-easy to fix as well. It is more an issue
> of knowing the domains (mails, listbots, news, and
> Gnus), which might not be that easy... like, at all!

I can understand.

>> Unfortunately, elisp is not my mother tongue.
>> Suppose I'd like to use `R` as unique keybinding
>> both in `debian.user` group (mailing list) and in
>> `nntp+gmane:gmane.emacs.gnus.user` group (usenet
>> forum), what would be the corresponding code?
>
> Again, Elisp doesn't have to be your mother tongue for
> this. However, if you are a perfectionist (as I am, so
> I'm not criticizing) perhaps you should make it your
> mother tongue...

Well, in another life, maybe ;)

> But try this:
>
> (require 'gnus-msg)
>
> (defun gnus-article-reply-dwim ()
>   (interactive)
>   (if (gnus-article-header-value "X-Mailing-List")
>       (gnus-summary-reply-to-list-with-original 1)
>     (gnus-article-followup-with-original) ))
>
> (defun gnus-article-header-value (header)
>   "Get the value of HEADER for the current article."
>   (with-current-buffer gnus-original-article-buffer
>     (gnus-fetch-field header) ))

With which keybinding?

> I just wrote and tried it, and it worked for
> debian.user (mailing list), alt.test (newsgroup), and
> a couple of inbox love letters (ordinary mail). It
> will work for ordinary mails and newsgroups, because
> that is the plain old
> `gnus-article-followup-with-original'.

Well,

- for mailing lists, `F` doesn't work (ML address in CC only) and `R`
  does work,
- for newsgroups, `F` does work and `R` doesn't work (I'm asked if
  I really want to reply by mail to article author),
- for love letters, I cannot test (I receive too much of them, hence
  considered as spam and automatically deleted),
- for break-off letters, `F` and `R` do work but behave differently: the
  sender's address is in TO but `F` adds my address in CC.

> However I'm not sure if all mailing lists respect the X-Mailing-List
> header...? (Could be a place to add more such tests and OR them.)

Maybe that's the point.

> Also, I don't know what the 1 argument to
> `gnus-summary-reply-to-list-with-original' means
> because that isn't in the documentation, and I didn't
> feel like tracing it. It probably (?) has to do with
> doing things to several messages. I don't know if that
> should be 0 or 1 in this case.

Unfortunately, I cannot help.

> Last, `gnus-summary-reply-to-list-with-original' is in
> gnus-msg, and not gnus-sum. Just mentioning it as it
> looks a bit confusing :)

Not more confusing than the rest ;)
-- 
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Re: Make `r` and `F` behave as `S L` when replying to a message from a mailing list

[Emanuel Berg]

Denis Bitouzé <dbitouze@wanadoo.fr> writes:

>> Again, Elisp doesn't have to be your mother tongue
>> for this. However, if you are a perfectionist (as I
>> am, so I'm not criticizing) perhaps you should make
>> it your mother tongue...
>
> Well, in another life, maybe ;)

I'm saying, if you get bugged by details, it is a good
idea to start working on how to fix them, because if
you cannot there are a zillion details to bug you.

> With which keybinding?

gnus-article-reply-dwim is what you want to use. It is
the one defun interactive so the only one that can be
called with a keybinding or from the M-x prompt.

If you want to play with it, here is how to set it to
"R" (note: capital) in `gnus-article-mode-map' - if it
works, perhaps should be made available from
`gnus-summary-mode' (`gnus-summary-mode-map') as
well...

(define-key gnus-article-mode-map "R" 'gnus-article-reply-dwim)

> - for mailing lists, `F` doesn't work (ML address in
> CC only) and `R` does work, - for newsgroups, `F`
> does work and `R` doesn't work (I'm asked if I
> really want to reply by mail to article author), -
> for love letters, I cannot test (I receive too much
> of them, hence considered as spam and automatically
> deleted), - for break-off letters, `F` and `R` do
> work but behave differently: the sender's address is
> in TO but `F` adds my address in CC.

Yes, that all the base functionality is already there
makes this a good case to do a DWIM command, the only
thing that command will do is to determine the state
and then use another command that is already
implemented and tested and documented (well, almost).

>> However I'm not sure if all mailing lists respect
>> the X-Mailing-List header...? (Could be a place to
>> add more such tests and OR them.)
>
> Maybe that's the point.

Feel free to add more test (or test1 test1 ... testn)
if the X-Mailing-List header isn't always there
(perhaps it is, even). The gnus-article-header-value I
also provided can be used to extract header values, or
nil if the header isn't there.

>> Also, I don't know what the 1 argument to
>> `gnus-summary-reply-to-list-with-original' means
>> because that isn't in the documentation, and I
>> didn't feel like tracing it. It probably (?) has to
>> do with doing things to several messages. I don't
>> know if that should be 0 or 1 in this case.
>
> Unfortunately, I cannot help.

Yes you can, start using it and report back if it
doesn't work. But I know this it should be a 0, not a
1, so change that. I.e.:

(defun gnus-article-reply-dwim ()
  (interactive)
  (if (gnus-article-header-value "X-Mailing-List")
      (gnus-summary-reply-to-list-with-original 0)
    (gnus-article-followup-with-original) ))

>> Last, `gnus-summary-reply-to-list-with-original' is
>> in gnus-msg, and not gnus-sum. Just mentioning it
>> as it looks a bit confusing :)
>
> Not more confusing than the rest ;)

The confusing this is that
`gnus-summary-reply-to-list-with-original' has the
gnus-summary prefix, but it is in the gnus-msg Elisp
file (the "require" stuff in the code). Emacs has a
single namespace, which is why people insist on long
prefixes to avoid collisions. Like if all package
coders named their stuff get-data, that would be a
mess instantly. But gnus-whatever-get-data,
gnus-something-else-get-data,
something-completely-different-get-data, in the
beginning it feels funky especially if you come from a
language like C with very short names, but if you do
it enough you start to like it. So it doesn't only
make sense, it is deceitful as well...

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