Re: How to subsribe to a general mailing list?

[Durand via "Announcements and discussions for GNUS, the GNU Emacs Usenet newsreader \(in English\)" <info-gnus-english@gnu.org>]

>>>>> Le Sam, 16 avr 2022 13:19:47 +0200, Adam Sjøgren
>>>>> <asjo@koldfront.dk> a dit:

    Adam> Durand writes: Yes, if you have an mbox file, you can browse
    Adam> it in Gnus e.g.  by using G f in the *Group* buffer:

    Durand> Thanks for the information.  That is exactly what I want!

    Adam> Great!

    Adam> [Traditional subscription to a mailing list]

    Durand> I hesitate to do this because I don't want to store the
    Durand> mailing list in my mail inbox.

    Adam> What people usually do is to "split" (filter) email for a
    Adam> mailing list into a separate "group" (folder).

I have tried to play with splitting mails using some simple sieve
scripts.  It is indeed fun.  :)

    Durand> If I subscribe to the list, then the only way (that I
    Durand> know) to remove the mails from my mail inbox is to delete
    Durand> them.  But, what if I want to read the unsubscribed
    Durand> mailing list again in the future?  Re-subscribing to the
    Durand> list won't send me the old mails again.  So I need some
    Durand> way to read the entire mailing list.

    Adam> That's the situation where Gmane is handy - as it is keeps
    Adam> being subscribed to a mailing list regardless of whether you
    Adam> - or anybody else - is reading it, so it has all the emails
    Adam> back to when the group was created in Gmane.

Agreed.

    Adam> [Being in control]

    Durand> I mean I do not have the ability to freely manipulate the
    Durand> contents on the server.  For example, I have to request to
    Durand> add some mailing lists to the server.  How am I in control
    Durand> of that?  What if I want to subscribe to some mailing list
    Durand> that I don't wish others to know that I want to subscribe
    Durand> to?

    Adam> Ah yes, in those cases using a public service is out of the
    Adam> question.  But then you have the problems you mentioned
    Adam> above instead :-)

Indeed.  That is just some hypothetical (and silly) question.  The
purpose of mentionning it is to show that I am not in control of the
process, though it is not a very practical issue.

    Durand> Moreover, if I later don't want to subscribe to the
    Durand> mailing list, could I remove the list from the gmane
    Durand> server?

    Adam> No - you can unsubscribe (and forget about the group), but
    Adam> somebody else might be reading the mailing list via Gmane -
    Adam> if you could remove it, you'd annoy anybody else who
    Adam> subscribed to the group in the meantime.

Indeed.  That is why I think I am not in control: I cannot reverse
some actions initiated by me.

    Durand> why can users add arbitrary mailing lists to the server?

    Adam> To me it feels very much like a "I would like to use this
    Adam> myself, so I built it.  Maybe others would like to use it as
    Adam> well, feel free to do so"-project.  Although I don't know
    Adam> what Lars' motivations were/are.

    Adam> As long as it isn't abused, it's a nice service and a neat
    Adam> solution to a problem shared by a bunch of people.

I see.

    Durand> I think the server only has a limited amout of spaces, so
    Durand> that the user can only add a limited amount of mailing
    Durand> lists to the server?

    Adam> There are only a limited amount of mailing lists on the
    Adam> internet.

    Adam> And the emails on those lists are (mainly) written by
    Adam> people.  People can only type so much.

    Adam> Plus: have you looked at the sizes of harddisks these days?
    Adam> You can store a _lot_ of emails in a couple of terabytes.

I understand this is not a practical issue now.  I was imagining that
this is easily abused, e.g. some user can make up a plethora of
mailing lists, and then blow the gmane server up by subscribing to a
new list every 10 seconds, say.

[ I am not sure if my concerns are valid.  I should add a disclaimer
  that I am a Mathematics student, and I tend to consider extreme
  cases before taking practical issues into consideration.  Sorry if
  my mail caused any trouble. ]

    Durand> Or does gmane know some alchemical magic to handle an
    Durand> unlimited amount of subscriptions to mailing lists?

    Adam> Luckily there aren't an unlimited supply of mailing lists,
    Adam> and there aren't an unlimited number of mailing lists that
    Adam> people are interested in reading through Gmane.

    Adam> So although resources aren't unlimited, neither is the need
    Adam> for capacity.

    Adam> I would guess that storage was much more a problem in the
    Adam> beginning of Gmane (20 years ago!)  than now :-)

Thanks again for the reply.

    Adam> This discussion has become only tangentially Gnus related,
    Adam> it might make sense to switch to the gmane.discuss group on
    Adam> news.gmane.io?  :-)

I think my question is already answered by your mention of
`gnus-group-make-doc-group', so there is currently no need to discuss
further.  Or per chance you want to discuss something?

>>>>> Le Sam, 16 avr 2022 19:41:31 +0800, Emanuel Berg via
>>>>> "Announcements and discussions for GNUS, the GNU Emacs Usenet
>>>>> newsreader (in English)" <info-gnus-english@gnu.org> a dit:

    Emanuel> Adam Sjøgren wrote:

    Durand> I hesitate to do this because I don't want to store the
    Durand> mailing list in my mail inbox.

    Adam> What people usually do is to "split" (filter) email for a
    Adam> mailing list into a separate "group" (folder).

    Emanuel> But that is a poor-man's solution, it will have to be
    Emanuel> setup manually, and retrieval will be non-selective.
    Emanuel> Gnus can do much better than than with Gmane which is the
    Emanuel> specific tool to solve this exact situation; also, it
    Emanuel> comes with a bunch of other advantages.

    Emanuel> Remember, Gnus is to Emacs users what Emacs is to
    Emanuel> computer users ...

I agree.  I enjoy using Gnus a lot.  That is why I am searching for
some way to view mailing lists in Gnus that makes me feel better.  :)

    Durand> If I subscribe to the list, then the only way (that I
    Durand> know) to remove the mails from my mail inbox is to delete
    Durand> them.  But, what if I want to read the unsubscribed
    Durand> mailing list again in the future?  Re-subscribing to the
    Durand> list won't send me the old mails again.  So I need some
    Durand> way to read the entire mailing list.

    Adam> That's the situation where Gmane is handy - as it is keeps
    Adam> being subscribed to a mailing list regardless of whether you
    Adam> - or anybody else - is reading it, so it has all the emails
    Adam> back to when the group was created in Gmane.

    Emanuel> It is much better, not the least/especially in terms of
    Emanuel> the interface.

Sure.

    Durand> I mean I do not have the ability to freely manipulate the
    Durand> contents on the server.  For example, I have to request to
    Durand> add some mailing lists to the server.  How am I in control
    Durand> of that?  What if I want to subscribe to some mailing list
    Durand> that I don't wish others to know that I want to subscribe
    Durand> to?

    Adam> [ one sentence elided ... ]

    Emanuel> You mean the admin of Gmane?

    Emanuel> Because everyone else don't know.  Or if they do, please
    Emanuel> tell me what 16 MLs/newsgroups and 1 blog I currently
    Emanuel> subscribe to thru Gmane/Gwene and the news.gmane.io
    Emanuel> server?

    Emanuel> But this objection is silly to begin with ...

Indeed this is a silly question.  As I said in the above reply to
Adam, my previous question had already been answered.  I was just
trying to express that I am not in total control of the process,
though the issue proposed is just theoretical instead of practical.

[ And indeed the administrators of gmane would know my subscriptions
  to the mailing lists.  What if I want to subscribe to some secret
  mailing list that discusses the proof of Riemann hypothesis (amonst
  my friends, say), and since the administrators of gmane knew I
  subscribed to the list, they started following that list, and
  eventually stole my proof?

  In case it is not obvious, this is a joke.  You don't have to tell
  me this is silly and not funny.  I already know it. ]

    Durand> Moreover, if I later don't want to subscribe to the
    Durand> mailing list, could I remove the list from the gmane
    Durand> server?

    Adam> No - you can unsubscribe (and forget about the group), but
    Adam> somebody else might be reading the mailing list via Gmane -
    Adam> if you could remove it, you'd annoy anybody else who
    Adam> subscribed to the group in the meantime.

    Emanuel> Right - on the contrary, with Gnus and Gmane, killing or
    Emanuel> unsubscribing to a group is one keystroke away.  But
    Emanuel> better yet, it isn't needed even since if you don't visit
    Emanuel> the groups, nothing happens.  This is what I mentioned
    Emanuel> above, altho from the other side of it, with Gmane,
    Emanuel> retrieval is selective.

Thanks.  I already know this.  I mentionned removing mails as I was
thinking about the reversibility of my actions: I could add some
mailing list to the server, but I could not reverse this action.  This
makes me feel asymmetrical.  ;p

It also has to do with my space concerns: I cannot remove mailing
lists if I add too many lists to the server.

    Durand> why can users add arbitrary mailing lists to the server?

    Adam> To me it feels very much like a "I would like to use this
    Adam> myself, so I built it.  Maybe others would like to use it as
    Adam> well, feel free to do so"-project.  Although I don't know
    Adam> what Lars' motivations were/are.

    Emanuel> It is to simplify/speed up the process.  Either people
    Emanuel> don't abuse it, or if they do to some very small extent,
    Emanuel> there are automatic or manual checks to correct it.  It
    Emanuel> is a tool for Emacs Gnus users.  Compare "there are
    Emanuel> [were?] no viruses for Linux".

Thanks for the explanation.  I am exactly concerned about that micro
possibility of people abusing the service.

    Durand> I think the server only has a limited amout of spaces, so
    Durand> that the user can only add a limited amount of mailing
    Durand> lists to the server?

    Adam> There are only a limited amount of mailing lists on
    Adam> the internet.

    Adam> And the emails on those lists are (mainly) written by
    Adam> people.  People can only type so much.
    Adam>
    Adam> Plus: have you looked at the sizes of harddisks these days?
    Adam> You can store a _lot_ of emails in a couple of terabytes.

    Emanuel> Ha!  Dear OP, just try it before you make up objections.
    Emanuel> To quote the barrel racer, just try - and you will fly!

I don't know exactly what I shall try: I am already using Gnus, and
gmane.  And my need was already satisfied by the function
`gnus-group-make-doc-group'.  Sorry if I was not clear about this
point.

    Durand> Or does gmane know some alchemical magic to handle an
    Durand> unlimited amount of subscriptions to mailing lists?

    Adam> Luckily there aren't an unlimited supply of mailing lists,
    Adam> and there aren't an unlimited number of mailing lists that
    Adam> people are interested in reading through Gmane.
    Adam>
    Adam> So although resources aren't unlimited, neither is the need
    Adam> for capacity.
    Adam>
    Adam> I would guess that storage was much more a problem in the
    Adam> beginning of Gmane (20 years ago!)  than now :-)
    Adam>
    Adam> This discussion has become only tangentially Gnus related,
    Adam> it might make sense to switch to the gmane.discuss group on
    Adam> news.gmane.io?  :-)

    Emanuel> The problem isn't your answers but the OP - or should I call
    Emanuel> him the PO?  - 's inside-out attitude.  Trust us, if you are
    Emanuel> a Gnus user, Gmane is what you are looking for.  It is there
    Emanuel> especially for your use-case.  Just do us all a favor and try
    Emanuel> it instead of making up made-up objections.

I am already using gmane to view this mailing list.  I don't know what
I shall try.  Maybe you mean to add some mailing list to gmane server?
Well, I prefer downloading the mailing list and viewing it using
`gnus-group-make-doc-group' for now.

Also, I am not making objections to gmane.  I was just confused about
the working of gmane.  I never said I won't use gmane because of the
concerns.  I just asked some questions that I could not figure out.

Sorry if my theoretical, hypothetical and inpractical questions, and /
or my ambiguous phrasing, disturbed you.

-- 
Durand