My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[Francis Moreau]

Hello all,

No I haven't given up to use Gnus yet ;)

I have still several issues to solve before officialy using Gnus
instead of Mutt though.

One thing that annoys me at most is my threaded view.

One example is my first article whose subject is "My first article
with Gnus, eventually...".

This thread is definitely not well displayed because some of the
repliers (such as harven in Cc) don't setup the "Reference:" header
field correctly.

For example, harven has kindly replied to my article

                MessageId: <m2bpxkor4f.fsf@gmail.com>

but with a the following reference field:

	References: <mailman.992.1223979315.25473.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>
		<m2myh56415.fsf@free.fr>
		<mailman.1193.1224147408.25473.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>

so it doesn't include my message ID.

So I guess this is the reason why Gnus get confused when displaying
this thread.

Now the question is why all this happens ? my gnus config ? harven's
config ? my news group server ?

thanks

Francis

PS: This also affects the useful 'A R' command in the summary group.

Re: My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[Tassilo Horn]

Francis Moreau <francis.moro@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Francis,

> This thread is definitely not well displayed because some of the
> repliers (such as harven in Cc) don't setup the "Reference:" header
> field correctly.
>
> For example, harven has kindly replied to my article
>
>                 MessageId: <m2bpxkor4f.fsf@gmail.com>
>
> but with a the following reference field:
>
> 	References: <mailman.992.1223979315.25473.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>
> 		<m2myh56415.fsf@free.fr>
> 		<mailman.1193.1224147408.25473.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>
>
> so it doesn't include my message ID.
>
> So I guess this is the reason why Gnus get confused when displaying
> this thread.

By default Gnus does threading by subject, so it seems you have changed
that.  See the docs:

,----[ (info "(gnus)Loose Threads") ]
| `gnus-summary-thread-gathering-function'
|      Gnus gathers threads by looking at `Subject' headers.  This means
|      that totally unrelated articles may end up in the same "thread",
|      which is confusing.  An alternate approach is to look at all the
|      `Message-ID's in all the `References' headers to find matches.
|      This will ensure that no gathered threads ever include unrelated
|      articles, but it also means that people who have posted with broken
|      newsreaders won't be gathered properly.  The choice is
|      yours--plague or cholera:
| 
|     `gnus-gather-threads-by-subject'
|           This function is the default gathering function and looks at
|           `Subject's exclusively.
| 
|     `gnus-gather-threads-by-references'
|           This function looks at `References' headers exclusively.
| 
|      If you want to test gathering by `References', you could say
|      something like:
| 
|           (setq gnus-summary-thread-gathering-function
|                 'gnus-gather-threads-by-references)
`----

As the docs say, it's either plague or cholera.  I usually use threading
by references, but in groups where only people with broken newsreaders
hang around, you could set it to subject by using group parameters.  See
(info "(gnus)Group Parameters").

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[Reiner Steib]

On Sun, Oct 19 2008, Francis Moreau wrote:
>                 MessageId: <m2bpxkor4f.fsf@gmail.com>
> but with a the following reference field:
> 	References: <mailman.992.1223979315.25473.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>
> 		<m2myh56415.fsf@free.fr>
> 		<mailman.1193.1224147408.25473.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>
> so it doesn't include my message ID.
[...]
> Now the question is why all this happens ? my gnus config ? harven's
> config ? my news group server ?

None of these.  The problem is that this is a newsgroup
(gnu.emacs.gnus) that is gated to a mailing list (info-gnus-english)
(and vice versa).  Somewhere along the way, the MID may be rewritten.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[Francis Moreau]

Hello Tassilo

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:

> Francis Moreau <francis.moro@gmail.com> writes:
>
> By default Gnus does threading by subject, so it seems you have
> changed

yes I did change it to do threading by reference mostly because I was
not satisfy by the default method.
>
> As the docs say, it's either plague or cholera.  I usually use
> threading by references, but in groups where only people with broken
> newsreaders hang around, you could set it to subject by using group
> parameters.

Well my initial question was why the thread was broken in the first
place. You seem to assume it's due to broken newsreaders but I as far
as I can tell 'harven' did use Gnus when he replied to me...

Also I'm wondering how the tree buffer does its thread gathering. It
usually displays better the thread view even with broken threads.

thanks

Francis

Re: My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[Francis Moreau]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

> On Sun, Oct 19 2008, Francis Moreau wrote:
>>                 MessageId: <m2bpxkor4f.fsf@gmail.com>
>> but with a the following reference field:
>> References: <mailman.992.1223979315.25473.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>
>> 		<m2myh56415.fsf@free.fr>
>> <mailman.1193.1224147408.25473.info-gnus-english@gnu.org>
>> so it doesn't include my message ID.
> [...]
>> Now the question is why all this happens ? my gnus config ? harven's
>> config ? my news group server ?
>
> None of these.  The problem is that this is a newsgroup
> (gnu.emacs.gnus) that is gated to a mailing list (info-gnus-english)
> (and vice versa).  Somewhere along the way, the MID may be rewritten.
>

ouch ! it sounds so broken !

At this point, I'm really wondering if it's worth to use newsgroup...

There're currently a lot of broken things when using newsgroups:

  - 'Reference:' field may be rewritten,

  - it takes so much time for an article to reach the news server,

  - not very convenient to discuss with people who don't use news
    groups.

Am I missing something ?

thanks

Francis

Re: My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[Adam Sjøgren]

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:30:49 +0200, Francis wrote:

> Am I missing something ?

Maybe. Here is a quite large system dedicated to providing nntp-access
to mailing-list, currently carrying more than 10000 mailinglists and 60
million emails: http://gmane.org/

So some people prefer newsgroups to mailinglists.


  Best regard,

-- 
 "I always liked songs with parentheses in the title."        Adam Sjøgren
                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk

Re: My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[Reiner Steib]

On Mon, Oct 20 2008, Francis Moreau wrote:

> There're currently a lot of broken things when using newsgroups:
>
>   - 'Reference:' field may be rewritten,

In a newsgroups-only scenario it doesn't happen.  The mail<->news is
the culprit.

>   - it takes so much time for an article to reach the news server,

Not really.  Nowadays news propagation is almost instantaneous.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[Francis Moreau]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

> On Mon, Oct 20 2008, Francis Moreau wrote:
>
>> There're currently a lot of broken things when using newsgroups:
>>
>>   - 'Reference:' field may be rewritten,
>
> In a newsgroups-only scenario it doesn't happen.  The mail<->news is
> the culprit.
>

Since mailing lists are popular (a lot more than news group it seems),
does this scenario exist at all ?

>>   - it takes so much time for an article to reach the news server,
>
> Not really.  Nowadays news propagation is almost instantaneous.

really ?

My articles take once send take a while to reach me. Maybe I choose
a bad news servers (gmane), I dunno.

Francis

Re: My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[Francis Moreau]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:30:49 +0200, Francis wrote:
>
>> Am I missing something ?
>
> Maybe. Here is a quite large system dedicated to providing nntp-access
> to mailing-list.

yes but it implies some issues that I mentioned earlier.

BTW, your thread appears to be a loose one. One of the thing that is
really annoying.

> , currently carrying more than 10000 mailinglists and
> 60
> million emails: http://gmane.org/
>
> So some people prefer newsgroups to mailinglists.
>

Well, that was my thinking too. I'm subscribed to several mailing
lists with a lot of traffic, and I found news groups very convinient
because I don't have to receive all the emails sent, and they expire
automatically.

But the down side I mentioned is really annoying. I think when I need
to post an article, I'll send it as emails to the mail list otherwise
if I just want to read articles, I'll use news groups.

Francis

Re: My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[Francis Moreau]

Francis Moreau <francis.moro@gmail.com> writes:
> My articles take once send take a while to reach me. Maybe I choose
> a bad news servers (gmane), I dunno.

Ok today it magically decided to make me lying and I received my
answer very quickly...

Oh well,

Francis

Re: My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[John Hasler]

Francis writes:
> Since mailing lists are popular (a lot more than news group it seems),
> does this scenario exist at all ?

Yes, of course it does.

> My articles take once send take a while to reach me. Maybe I choose a bad
> news servers (gmane), I dunno.

News articles or postings to mailing lists gatewayed via Gmane?  The latter
have to go to the mailing-list server and then come back to the news
server.
-- 
John Hasler 
john@dhh.gt.org
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[Francis Moreau]

John Hasler <john@dhh.gt.org> writes:

> Francis writes:
>> Since mailing lists are popular (a lot more than news group it
>> seems),
>> does this scenario exist at all ?
>
> Yes, of course it does.

I'm currently using gmane, and doesn't appear the case.

Could you name a news server where it's the case ?

thanks

Francis

Re: My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[Reiner Steib]

On Tue, Oct 21 2008, Francis Moreau wrote:

> Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
>> In a newsgroups-only scenario it doesn't happen.  The mail<->news
[ gateway ]
>> is the culprit.
>
> Since mailing lists are popular (a lot more than news group it seems),
> does this scenario exist at all ?

Which scenario?

>> Not really.  Nowadays news propagation is almost instantaneous.
>
> really ?

Yes.

> My articles take once send take a while to reach me. Maybe I choose
> a bad news servers (gmane), I dunno.

As others already have explained, Gmane is a special case since it
carries only mailing list, no usenet newsgroups.  Articles appear only
after Gmane receives them from the mailing list.

This group/list is even more special because it is:

(a) a newsgroup in the gnu.* hierarchy: gnu.emacs.gnus 

(b) a mailing list on gnu.org: info-gnus-english

There is a bidirectional mail<->news gateway between (a) and (b).

(c) The Gmane group gmane.emacs.gnus.user receives/sends articles
    from/to the mailing list (b).

So if you post through Gmane, your article is propagated like this:

                                        GW——> gnu.emacs.gnus
gmane.e.g.user ————> Gmane ————> MLM ———|
                                         ——> Gmane ————> gmane.e.g.user

(GW = gateway, MLM = mailing list management software)

If someone post via a usenet server:

gnu.emacs.gnus ——GW——> MLM ————> Gmane ————> gmane.e.g.user

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[Francis Moreau]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

> On Tue, Oct 21 2008, Francis Moreau wrote:
> As others already have explained, Gmane is a special case since it
> carries only mailing list, no usenet newsgroups.  Articles appear only
> after Gmane receives them from the mailing list.
>
> This group/list is even more special because it is:
>
> (a) a newsgroup in the gnu.* hierarchy: gnu.emacs.gnus 
>
> (b) a mailing list on gnu.org: info-gnus-english
>
> There is a bidirectional mail<->news gateway between (a) and (b).
>
> (c) The Gmane group gmane.emacs.gnus.user receives/sends articles
>     from/to the mailing list (b).
>
> So if you post through Gmane, your article is propagated like this:
>
>                                         GW——> gnu.emacs.gnus
> gmane.e.g.user ————> Gmane ————> MLM ———|
>                                          ——> Gmane ————> gmane.e.g.user
>
> (GW = gateway, MLM = mailing list management software)
>
> If someone post via a usenet server:
>
> gnu.emacs.gnus ——GW——> MLM ————> Gmane ————> gmane.e.g.user
>

Thanks Reiner for the explanation.

So i I understand correctly, the culprit is my news server (gmane) and
it propagation path.

I'll try to find another news server (any suggestions are welcome) and
see if things get better.

Francis

Re: My 2nd article with Gnus, about threading...

[Adam Sjøgren]

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 14:25:10 +0100, Francis wrote:

> Thanks Reiner for the explanation.

> So i I understand correctly, the culprit is my news server (gmane) and
> it propagation path.

I don't think you do. Gmane is not a news server in the usual sense
(i.e. "carries usenet newsgroups"), gmane is a mailling list archive
that provides access to mailinglists via nntp.

> I'll try to find another news server (any suggestions are welcome) and
> see if things get better.

You missed Reiners point, I think, this group/mailing list is a special
case (because it is a newsgroup and a mailing list and archived on gmane).


  Best regards,

-- 
 "Money always takes the place of life"                       Adam Sjøgren
                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk