Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Hi, I’m a bit late: Last week the Unicode consortium released the latest version of their nowadays mostly-emoji standard.

Besides several entries for transgender representation, there are also new animals, and most important: “my” ConTeXt mascot, the Dodo! ;D

see https://unicode.org/emoji/charts-13.0/emoji-released.html

I still miss e.g.
- adaptible colors for everything-else-than-skintone (e.g. vehicles)
- political symbols (red flag, hammer-and-sickle – of course the selection would be a political decision and would cause problems with prohibited, e.g. nazi, symbols, but maybe we can just get simple flags in several colors? adaptible would make sense...)
- lots of local and/or vegetarian food (Kässpätzle, Leberkäswecken, Schupfnudeln, veg. pizza, tofu…)
- some sense…

While I agree that we need some standardization in symbols, I still don’t think it was a good idea to mix them with text glyphs and bloat font technology with colors.

Greetlings, Hraban
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Re: Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/5/2020 9:45 AM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
> Hi, I’m a bit late: Last week the Unicode consortium released the latest version of their nowadays mostly-emoji standard.
> 
> Besides several entries for transgender representation, there are also new animals, and most important: “my” ConTeXt mascot, the Dodo! ;D

a never ending story i guess

> see https://unicode.org/emoji/charts-13.0/emoji-released.html

indeed, i already added those

> I still miss e.g.
> - adaptible colors for everything-else-than-skintone (e.g. vehicles)

and the cars should of course be recognizable as using petrol, diesel, 
batteries (and some ligature for hybrids, software cheats etc)

> - political symbols (red flag, hammer-and-sickle – of course the selection would be a political decision and would cause problems with prohibited, e.g. nazi, symbols, but maybe we can just get simple flags in several colors? adaptible would make sense...)

i think emoji and choices are already political

> - lots of local and/or vegetarian food (Kässpätzle, Leberkäswecken, Schupfnudeln, veg. pizza, tofu…)

i assume that at some point there should also be a descriptive file 
explaining what these symbols actually represent

> - some sense…

indeed

> While I agree that we need some standardization in symbols, I still don’t think it was a good idea to mix them with text glyphs and bloat font technology with colors.
lots of weird things indeed ... kind of iconic esperanto so maybe som 
grammar will come too

Hans

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Re: Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Arthur Reutenauer]

On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 09:45:09AM +0100, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
> Hi, I’m a bit late: Last week the Unicode consortium released the latest version of their nowadays mostly-emoji standard.

  Just for the record: it is not true at all that Unicode is “mostly
emojis” nowadays.  Even today, the vast majority of characters added
each year is 90% non-emoji.  I make this point at every ConTeXt meeting
I attend, but it really seems nobody is listening ;-)

	Best,

		Arthur
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Re: Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 2020-02-05 um 10:29 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl>:
> 
> On 2/5/2020 9:45 AM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
>> Hi, I’m a bit late: Last week the Unicode consortium released the latest version of their nowadays mostly-emoji standard.
>> Besides several entries for transgender representation, there are also new animals, and most important: “my” ConTeXt mascot, the Dodo! ;D
> a never ending story i guess

We need to compensate for all the animals that become extinct.

>> see https://unicode.org/emoji/charts-13.0/emoji-released.html
> 
> indeed, i already added those

👍

>> I still miss e.g.
>> - adaptible colors for everything-else-than-skintone (e.g. vehicles)
> 
> and the cars should of course be recognizable as using petrol, diesel, batteries (and some ligature for hybrids, software cheats etc)

Oh yes, I didn’t think of that. You don’t need a ligature for software cheats, though, they’re default.
But if combustion engines get prohibited, does that affect the emojis?

>> - political symbols (red flag, hammer-and-sickle – of course the selection would be a political decision and would cause problems with prohibited, e.g. nazi, symbols, but maybe we can just get simple flags in several colors? adaptible would make sense...)
> 
> i think emoji and choices are already political

True. E.g. the selection of national monuments. Why Fuji and not Uluru, Kibo, Matterhorn or Zugspitze? (ah, no, there are several Zugspitzen, just no Zugenden…)

>> - lots of local and/or vegetarian food (Kässpätzle, Leberkäswecken, Schupfnudeln, veg. pizza, tofu…)
> i assume that at some point there should also be a descriptive file explaining what these symbols actually represent

Recipes please.

>> - some sense…
> indeed

>> While I agree that we need some standardization in symbols, I still don’t think it was a good idea to mix them with text glyphs and bloat font technology with colors.
> lots of weird things indeed ... kind of iconic esperanto so maybe som grammar will come too

Good idea.

There are a lot of emojis that I can’t imagine using or that I don’t understand, esp. facial expressions, even if I know western comic and manga representations of feelings. And I often miss emojis for the feelings I’d like to refer to, like some of those available in old forum software: facepalm, banging your head against the wall…

Lassen wir das.

Greetlings, Hraban

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Re: Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 2020-02-05 um 10:37 schrieb Arthur Reutenauer <arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org>:
> 
> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 09:45:09AM +0100, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
>> Hi, I’m a bit late: Last week the Unicode consortium released the latest version of their nowadays mostly-emoji standard.
> 
>  Just for the record: it is not true at all that Unicode is “mostly
> emojis” nowadays.  Even today, the vast majority of characters added
> each year is 90% non-emoji.  I make this point at every ConTeXt meeting
> I attend, but it really seems nobody is listening ;-)

I’m aware, just joking around. But we get new emojis all the time but AFAIK there are still characters/glyphs or whole scripting systems missing. (Didn’t research: What’s the status of hieroglyphs and cuneiform?)

Best, Hraban
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Re: Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[luigi scarso]

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On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 10:38 AM Arthur Reutenauer <
arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote:

>
>   Just for the record: it is not true at all that Unicode is “mostly
> emojis” nowadays.  Even today, the vast majority of characters added
> each year is 90% non-emoji.  I make this point at every ConTeXt meeting
> I attend, but it really seems nobody is listening ;-)
>

 I was.


-- 
luigi

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Re: Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/5/2020 10:37 AM, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 09:45:09AM +0100, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
>> Hi, I’m a bit late: Last week the Unicode consortium released the latest version of their nowadays mostly-emoji standard.
> 
>    Just for the record: it is not true at all that Unicode is “mostly
> emojis” nowadays.  Even today, the vast majority of characters added
> each year is 90% non-emoji.  I make this point at every ConTeXt meeting
> I attend, but it really seems nobody is listening ;-)
we are waiting for you to predict the future, when do you think nofemoji 
will pass nofnonemoji (we could draw a curve of how much got added each 
version of unicode) .. visualizing your argument could help

Hans


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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/5/2020 10:45 AM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

> Oh yes, I didn’t think of that. You don’t need a ligature for software cheats, though, they’re default.
> But if combustion engines get prohibited, does that affect the emojis?

they will be kept (like ancient scripts are supported)

actually this is a problem with icons: will a next generation recognize 
them (like a thrash can being replace by a plastic green container ro 
vacuum cleaner or ...)

> Recipes please.

could be a nice one for the next ctx meeting ... a recipe in emoji 
language

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Arthur Reutenauer]

On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 10:47:46AM +0100, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
> I’m aware, just joking around.

  It was hard to tell.

> But we get new emojis all the time but AFAIK there are still characters/glyphs or whole scripting systems missing.

  You do realise that it’s not the same people working on emoji and
ancient scripts, right?  The implication that “if they stopped adding so
many emojis they’d have more time for hieroglyphs instead” is
nonsensical.  More work is not suddenly going to be done on rare scripts
just because emojis are rejected.  If anything, it would probably be the
other way around.

> (Didn’t research: What’s the status of hieroglyphs and cuneiform?)

  Should I google that for you?

	https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode12.0.0/ch11.pdf

  “Chapter 11: Cuneiform and Hieroglyphs”.  Since 2014!

	Best,

		Arthur
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Re: Unicode 13 – save the \dodo!

[Arthur Reutenauer]

On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 11:22:26AM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> we are waiting for you to predict the future, when do you think nofemoji
> will pass nofnonemoji (we could draw a curve of how much got added each
> version of unicode) .. visualizing your argument could help

  It’s never going to happen.  Since after the initial addition of over
1000 emojis from the Japanese telcos in 2010 (which few people outside
Japan took notice of at the time), the rate of new emojis has been more
or less constant at 50-100 a year (out of a total of 500-10,000 new
characters / year).  This is never going to come anywhere near close the
100K+ other Unicode characters that already exist.  It wouldn’t be
manageable anyway (not that I think it is now: it can only get worse).

  If the pressure to add new emojis is maintained, one of the big
players is going to get tired of the slow process and solve the issue in
a technical way (by embedding emojis as images for example, that
wouldn’t be revolutionary) or -- my personal favourite, which over a
decade ago I thought was obvious, but clearly isn’t -- they’re going to
break away from the dependency on the Unicode Consortium and start
maintaining their own repository of images with code points in the
private use area.  They’re plenty of space for that there.

	Best,

		Arthur
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