* Suboptimal German hyphenation
@ 2022-09-28 22:24 Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context
2022-09-29 0:17 ` Max Chernoff via ntg-context
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context @ 2022-09-28 22:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context; +Cc: Leah Neukirchen
Hi,
I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered
the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this
down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer:
\starttext
\language[de]
\showhyphens{Zusammenhang}
\showhyphens{anderswo}
\showhyphens{anderswoher}
\stoptext
This shows
languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang
languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo
languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her
Now with LaTeX and Babel:
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage[ngerman]{babel}
\begin{document}
\showhyphens{Zusammenhang}
\showhyphens{anderswo}
\showhyphens{anderswoher}
\end{document}
This shows
[] \TU/lmr/m/n/10 Zu-sam-men-hang
[] \TU/lmr/m/n/10 an-ders-wo
[] \TU/lmr/m/n/10 an-ders-wo-her
The LaTeX hyphenation points agree with the German Duden dictionary.
As none of the words use more than 7-bit ASCII, I think newer pattern
changes are not related.
Curiously, the same effect already appears with MKII and MKIV from
TeXLive 2014, the oldest I had around.
I'm also surprised 'anders-wo-her' gets hyphenated but 'anderswo' is
not hyphenated at all.
I could not reproduce a difference with English words so far.
Any ideas? As far as I understand, MKIV/LMTX should use the
de-hyph-1996 patterns which LuaLaTeX uses these days too, via
hyph-utf8.
Thanks,
--
Leah Neukirchen <leah@vuxu.org> https://leahneukirchen.org/
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* Re: Suboptimal German hyphenation
2022-09-28 22:24 Suboptimal German hyphenation Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context
@ 2022-09-29 0:17 ` Max Chernoff via ntg-context
2022-09-29 0:44 ` Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context
2022-09-29 4:10 ` Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context
0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Max Chernoff via ntg-context @ 2022-09-29 0:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context; +Cc: Max Chernoff, leah
Hi Leah,
> I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered
> the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this
> down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer:
>
> \starttext
> \language[de]
> \showhyphens{Zusammenhang}
> \showhyphens{anderswo}
> \showhyphens{anderswoher}
> \stoptext
>
> This shows
> languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang
> languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo
> languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her
Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to
3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I
have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in
ConTeXt with:
\mainlanguage[de]
\lefthyphenmin=2
\righthyphenmin=2
\starttext
\showhyphens{Zusammenhang}
\showhyphens{anderswo}
\showhyphens{anderswoher}
\stoptext
which gives:
languages > hyphenation > show: Zu[-||]sam[-||]men[-||]hang
languages > hyphenation > show: an[-||]ders[-||]wo
languages > hyphenation > show: an[-||]ders[-||]wo[-||]her
-- Max
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* Re: Suboptimal German hyphenation
2022-09-29 0:17 ` Max Chernoff via ntg-context
@ 2022-09-29 0:44 ` Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context
2022-10-19 14:47 ` Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context
2022-09-29 4:10 ` Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context
1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context @ 2022-09-29 0:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context; +Cc: Leah Neukirchen, Max Chernoff
Max Chernoff via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> writes:
> Hi Leah,
>
>> I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered
>> the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this
>> down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer:
>>
>> \starttext
>> \language[de]
>> \showhyphens{Zusammenhang}
>> \showhyphens{anderswo}
>> \showhyphens{anderswoher}
>> \stoptext
>>
>> This shows
>> languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang
>> languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo
>> languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her
>
> Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to
> 3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I
> have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in
> ConTeXt with:
Perfect, thanks!
Many prefixes have two letters, so changing the default may be
reasonable. But there are more experienced German typographers on
this list who can chime in.
--
Leah Neukirchen <leah@vuxu.org> https://leahneukirchen.org
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* Re: Suboptimal German hyphenation
2022-09-29 0:17 ` Max Chernoff via ntg-context
2022-09-29 0:44 ` Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context
@ 2022-09-29 4:10 ` Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context
2022-09-29 4:49 ` Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context
1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context @ 2022-09-29 4:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Wolfgang Schuster
Max Chernoff via ntg-context schrieb am 29.09.2022 um 02:17:
> Hi Leah,
>
>> I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered
>> the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this
>> down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer:
>>
>> \starttext
>> \language[de]
>> \showhyphens{Zusammenhang}
>> \showhyphens{anderswo}
>> \showhyphens{anderswoher}
>> \stoptext
>>
>> This shows
>> languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang
>> languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo
>> languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her
> Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to
> 3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I
> have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in
> ConTeXt with:
>
> \mainlanguage[de]
> \lefthyphenmin=2
> \righthyphenmin=2
You can use \setuplanguage to change the values.
\setuplanguage
[de]
[ lefthyphenmin=2,
righthyphenmin=2]
Wolfgang
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* Re: Suboptimal German hyphenation
2022-09-29 4:10 ` Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context
@ 2022-09-29 4:49 ` Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context
2022-09-29 6:27 ` Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context @ 2022-09-29 4:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context; +Cc: Henning Hraban Ramm
Am 29.09.22 um 06:10 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context:
> Max Chernoff via ntg-context schrieb am 29.09.2022 um 02:17:
>> Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to
>> 3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I
>> have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in
>> ConTeXt with:
>>
>> \mainlanguage[de]
>> \lefthyphenmin=2
>> \righthyphenmin=2
>
> You can use \setuplanguage to change the values.
>
> \setuplanguage
> [de]
> [ lefthyphenmin=2,
> righthyphenmin=2]
Thank you, Leah, Max and Wolfgang! I changed that immediately in all of
my ongoing projects, but I don’t think we should change the default
after all these years.
published: https://literatur.social/@fiee/109079837141552277
Hraban
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* Re: Suboptimal German hyphenation
2022-09-29 4:49 ` Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context
@ 2022-09-29 6:27 ` Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context
2022-09-29 6:53 ` Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context @ 2022-09-29 6:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Arthur Rosendahl
On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 06:49:23AM +0200, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote:
> Thank you, Leah, Max and Wolfgang! I changed that immediately in all of my
> ongoing projects, but I don’t think we should change the default after all
> these years.
Are you sure that the default in ConTeXt has *not* changed in all
these years? :-)
Arthur
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* Re: Suboptimal German hyphenation
2022-09-29 6:27 ` Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context
@ 2022-09-29 6:53 ` Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context
0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context @ 2022-09-29 6:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Henning Hraban Ramm
Am 29.09.22 um 08:27 schrieb Arthur Rosendahl:
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 06:49:23AM +0200, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote:
>> Thank you, Leah, Max and Wolfgang! I changed that immediately in all of my
>> ongoing projects, but I don’t think we should change the default after all
>> these years.
>
> Are you sure that the default in ConTeXt has *not* changed in all
> these years? :-)
jag vet inte
Hraban
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* Re: Suboptimal German hyphenation
2022-09-29 0:44 ` Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context
@ 2022-10-19 14:47 ` Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context
2022-10-19 18:02 ` Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context @ 2022-10-19 14:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context; +Cc: Leah Neukirchen, Max Chernoff
Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> writes:
> Max Chernoff via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> writes:
>
>> Hi Leah,
>>
>>> I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered
>>> the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this
>>> down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer:
>>>
>>> \starttext
>>> \language[de]
>>> \showhyphens{Zusammenhang}
>>> \showhyphens{anderswo}
>>> \showhyphens{anderswoher}
>>> \stoptext
>>>
>>> This shows
>>> languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang
>>> languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo
>>> languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her
>>
>> Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to
>> 3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I
>> have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in
>> ConTeXt with:
>
> Perfect, thanks!
>
> Many prefixes have two letters, so changing the default may be
> reasonable. But there are more experienced German typographers on
> this list who can chime in.
After some research, I found the recommendation in
Forssman, de Jong: Detailtypografie (4. Aufl, 2008, S. 124f.) to
use 2/3 for German justified texts, and 3/4 to 5/5 for ragged text.
They also recommend to never hyphenate words with 5 letters, not sure
that can be encoded.
--
Leah Neukirchen <leah@vuxu.org> https://leahneukirchen.org
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* Re: Suboptimal German hyphenation
2022-10-19 14:47 ` Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context
@ 2022-10-19 18:02 ` Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context
2022-10-31 7:47 ` Denis Maier via ntg-context
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context @ 2022-10-19 18:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context; +Cc: Pablo Rodriguez
On 10/19/22 16:47, Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context wrote:
>> [...]
>> Many prefixes have two letters, so changing the default may be
>> reasonable. But there are more experienced German typographers on
>> this list who can chime in.
>
> After some research, I found the recommendation in
> Forssman, de Jong: Detailtypografie (4. Aufl, 2008, S. 124f.) to
> use 2/3 for German justified texts, and 3/4 to 5/5 for ragged text.
> They also recommend to never hyphenate words with 5 letters, not sure
> that can be encoded.
Hi Leah,
Hans added hyphenmin some time ago:
\setuplanguage[de][lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=3, hyphenmin=6]
\setuplanguage[deo][lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=3, hyphenmin=5]
\mainlanguage[de]
\starttext
\startTEXpage[offset=1em]
\hyphenatedword{davon}
\deo\hyphenatedword{davon}
\stopTEXpage
\stoptext
It is technically on the wiki, but it lacks proper “wikification”.
I hope it helps,
Pablo
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* Re: Suboptimal German hyphenation
2022-10-19 18:02 ` Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context
@ 2022-10-31 7:47 ` Denis Maier via ntg-context
0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Denis Maier via ntg-context @ 2022-10-31 7:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context; +Cc: denis.maier, oinos
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: ntg-context <ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl> Im Auftrag von Pablo
> Rodriguez via ntg-context
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Oktober 2022 20:02
> An: Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
> Cc: Pablo Rodriguez <oinos@gmx.es>
> Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
>
> Hans added hyphenmin some time ago:
>
> \setuplanguage[de][lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=3, hyphenmin=6]
> \setuplanguage[deo][lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=3, hyphenmin=5]
> \mainlanguage[de]
> \starttext
> \startTEXpage[offset=1em]
> \hyphenatedword{davon}
> \deo\hyphenatedword{davon}
> \stopTEXpage
> \stoptext
>
> It is technically on the wiki, but it lacks proper “wikification”.
I just wanted to add it to the hyphenation page on the wiki, but I've seen that you have just added it a couple of days ago. Thanks!
Denis
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2022-09-28 22:24 Suboptimal German hyphenation Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context
2022-09-29 0:17 ` Max Chernoff via ntg-context
2022-09-29 0:44 ` Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context
2022-10-19 14:47 ` Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context
2022-10-19 18:02 ` Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context
2022-10-31 7:47 ` Denis Maier via ntg-context
2022-09-29 4:10 ` Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context
2022-09-29 4:49 ` Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context
2022-09-29 6:27 ` Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context
2022-09-29 6:53 ` Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context
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