[NTG-context] \starttable questions

[NTG-context] \starttable questions

[Jim]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone here could help me with these three things:

For a long time I have been using Wichura's TaBle macros (i.e., what one
gets with
        \input table
in plain TeX) and would like to use what appears to be ConTeXt's version of
those (i.e., what one gets with \starttable ... \stoptable).


However, https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/starttable says
        The environment \starttable ... \stoptable is and (sic) old and
        nearly obsolete way to handle tabular material

Q1: are there plans to remove \starttable ... \endtable from ConTeXt any
    time "soon", or is that wiki comment gratuitously pessimistic?



In a recent answer on this list, Mikael helped someone by pointing out the
\HF[...] command.  The \HF command is not listed in the \starttable wiki page.

Q2: Is \HF[] documented anywhere?  If so, can someone point me to that/those
    document(s)?



Perhaps an answer to Q2 will answer this one too, but in case it doesn't...

When using Wichura's \BeginTable ... \EndTable macros, I occasionally
use the \\+nm feature to add n points above the current line and/or m
points below the current line.

Q3: Does ConTexT's \starttable ... \endtable have this feature?
    If so, how does one access this feature?


Thanks.

                                Jim

    
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[NTG-context] Re: \starttable questions

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 25.01.24 um 16:12 schrieb Jim:
> Hi, I was wondering if anyone here could help me with these three things:
> 
> For a long time I have been using Wichura's TaBle macros (i.e., what one
> gets with
>          \input table
> in plain TeX) and would like to use what appears to be ConTeXt's version of
> those (i.e., what one gets with \starttable ... \stoptable).
> 
> 
> However, https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/starttable says
>          The environment \starttable ... \stoptable is and (sic) old and
>          nearly obsolete way to handle tabular material
> 
> Q1: are there plans to remove \starttable ... \endtable from ConTeXt any
>      time "soon", or is that wiki comment gratuitously pessimistic?


Hans suggests to use tabulate as long as it fits.

tabulate uses mostly the same syntax as table(s), but as far as I looked 
into the sources, it’s a different (and probably better) implementation.

I’m quite sure \starttable will stay, it’s just discouraged since 
\startTABLE (natural tables) is better if you need more than \starttabulate.


> In a recent answer on this list, Mikael helped someone by pointing out the
> \HF[...] command.  The \HF command is not listed in the \starttable wiki page.
> 
> Q2: Is \HF[] documented anywhere?  If so, can someone point me to that/those
>      document(s)?

I also don’t know anything about \HF and didn’t find it in the source.
Are you sure it wasn’t just used in a math context?

> Perhaps an answer to Q2 will answer this one too, but in case it doesn't...
> 
> When using Wichura's \BeginTable ... \EndTable macros, I occasionally
> use the \\+nm feature to add n points above the current line and/or m
> points below the current line.
> 
> Q3: Does ConTexT's \starttable ... \endtable have this feature?
>      If so, how does one access this feature?

Probably not, you don’t use \\ in a ConTeXt table.
There’s \TB[] that understands the same parameters as \blank

Hraban


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[NTG-context] Re: \starttable questions

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2024, Jim wrote:

> In a recent answer on this list, Mikael helped someone by pointing out the
> \HF[...] command.  The \HF command is not listed in the \starttable wiki page.
> 
> Q2: Is \HF[] documented anywhere?  If so, can someone point me to that/those
>     document(s)?
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps an answer to Q2 will answer this one too, but in case it doesn't...
> 
> When using Wichura's \BeginTable ... \EndTable macros, I occasionally
> use the \\+nm feature to add n points above the current line and/or m
> points below the current line.
> 
> Q3: Does ConTexT's \starttable ... \endtable have this feature?
>     If so, how does one access this feature?

I haven't looked at starttable in well over a decade, but I did document some of it:

https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/Articles/tb28-3/tb90mahajan.pdf
https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/Articles/tb29-1/tb91mahajan.pdf

Aditya
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[NTG-context] Re: \starttable questions

[Jim]

Hi Henning,

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 17:16 (+0100), Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

> Am 25.01.24 um 16:12 schrieb Jim:
>> Hi, I was wondering if anyone here could help me with these three things:

>> For a long time I have been using Wichura's TaBle macros (i.e., what one
>> gets with
>>          \input table
>> in plain TeX) and would like to use what appears to be ConTeXt's version of
>> those (i.e., what one gets with \starttable ... \stoptable).


>> However, https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/starttable says
>> The environment \starttable ... \stoptable is and (sic) old and
>> nearly obsolete way to handle tabular material

>> Q1: are there plans to remove \starttable ... \endtable from ConTeXt any
>> time "soon", or is that wiki comment gratuitously pessimistic?


> Hans suggests to use tabulate as long as it fits.

I just gave that a try, using the same syntax as \starttable:

\starttable[|c|c|]
\HL
\VL \bf Year \VL \bf Citizens \VL\SR
\HL
\VL 1675 \VL ˜428 \VL\FR
\VL 1795 \VL 1124 \VL\MR
\VL 1880 \VL 2405 \VL\MR
\VL 1995 \VL 7408 \VL\LR
\HL
\stoptable

\starttabulate[|c|c|]
\HL
\VL \bf Year \VL \bf Citizens \VL\SR
\HL
\VL 1675 \VL ˜428 \VL\FR
\VL 1795 \VL 1124 \VL\MR
\VL 1880 \VL 2405 \VL\MR
\VL 1995 \VL 7408 \VL\LR
\HL
\stoptabulate

While tabulate produced a table with the above input, it needs some work to
make the table look good.  (The columns are too narrow, the vrules don't
meet the hrules, ...).

Perhaps these can be fixed with some tweaking, but I notice that in all of
https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/starttabulate
and
https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Tabulate
and
http://www.ntg.nl/maps/22/28.pdf
there is a conspicuous lack of examples with vrules.  And the tables in the
(at least) the starttabulate wiki page which use vrules don't use tabulate
to create the tables.

Coincidence?  I think not.  :-)


> tabulate uses mostly the same syntax as table(s), but as far as I looked
> into the sources, it’s a different (and probably better) implementation.

> I’m quite sure \starttable will stay, it’s just discouraged since
> \startTABLE (natural tables) is better if you need more than \starttabulate.

I looked at that and played with it (briefly), but when I saw there was
something to make tables (i.e., \starttable) which used a syntax close to
what I already know, I thought I'd go with what I know.  At this point my
ConTeXt learning curve is pretty steep already, but perhaps at some point
in the future I'll be able to heed your advice.


>> In a recent answer on this list, Mikael helped someone by pointing out the
>> \HF[...] command.  The \HF command is not listed in the \starttable wiki page.

>> Q2: Is \HF[] documented anywhere?  If so, can someone point me to that/those
>> document(s)?

> I also don’t know anything about \HF and didn’t find it in the source.
> Are you sure it wasn’t just used in a math context?

It was indeed used in a math context.  Unfortunately, that knowledge
doesn't bring me any closer to finding the documentation.  (Which gets me
back to my learning curve. :-)

>> Perhaps an answer to Q2 will answer this one too, but in case it doesn't...

>> When using Wichura's \BeginTable ... \EndTable macros, I occasionally
>> use the \\+nm feature to add n points above the current line and/or m
>> points below the current line.

>> Q3: Does ConTexT's \starttable ... \endtable have this feature?
>> If so, how does one access this feature?

> Probably not, you don’t use \\ in a ConTeXt table.

That I already knew.

> There’s \TB[] that understands the same parameters as \blank

Thanks for that information.  Unfortunately, it doesn't work well for
tables with vrules, in either \starttabulate or \starttable.  However,
thanks for mentioning it, not all tables have vrules.

Cheers.
                                Jim
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[NTG-context] Re: \starttable questions

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Jim schrieb am 25.01.2024 um 22:01:
> Hi Henning,
>
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 17:16 (+0100), Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
>
>> Am 25.01.24 um 16:12 schrieb Jim:
>>> Hi, I was wondering if anyone here could help me with these three things:
>>> For a long time I have been using Wichura's TaBle macros (i.e., what one
>>> gets with
>>>           \input table
>>> in plain TeX) and would like to use what appears to be ConTeXt's version of
>>> those (i.e., what one gets with \starttable ... \stoptable).
>
>>> However, https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/starttable says
>>> The environment \starttable ... \stoptable is and (sic) old and
>>> nearly obsolete way to handle tabular material
>>> Q1: are there plans to remove \starttable ... \endtable from ConTeXt any
>>> time "soon", or is that wiki comment gratuitously pessimistic?
>
>> Hans suggests to use tabulate as long as it fits.
> I just gave that a try, using the same syntax as \starttable:
>
> \starttable[|c|c|]
> \HL
> \VL \bf Year \VL \bf Citizens \VL\SR
> \HL
> \VL 1675 \VL ˜428 \VL\FR
> \VL 1795 \VL 1124 \VL\MR
> \VL 1880 \VL 2405 \VL\MR
> \VL 1995 \VL 7408 \VL\LR
> \HL
> \stoptable
>
> \starttabulate[|c|c|]
> \HL
> \VL \bf Year \VL \bf Citizens \VL\SR
> \HL
> \VL 1675 \VL ˜428 \VL\FR
> \VL 1795 \VL 1124 \VL\MR
> \VL 1880 \VL 2405 \VL\MR
> \VL 1995 \VL 7408 \VL\LR
> \HL
> \stoptabulate
>
> While tabulate produced a table with the above input, it needs some work to
> make the table look good.  (The columns are too narrow, the vrules don't
> meet the hrules, ...).
>
> Perhaps these can be fixed with some tweaking, but I notice that in all of
> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/starttabulate
> and
> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Tabulate
> and
> http://www.ntg.nl/maps/22/28.pdf
> there is a conspicuous lack of examples with vrules.  And the tables in the
> (at least) the starttabulate wiki page which use vrules don't use tabulate
> to create the tables.
>
> Coincidence?  I think not.  :-)

Table which rely on rules to make the content readable have a serious 
problem
(read Edward Tufte books how you can improve the visual style) but the 
better
alternative in this case are either natural tables or extreme tables.

Below is a example which uses the table like wrapper for natural tables
which makes adding rules and changing the padding around text very
simple because each table cell is a \framed block with all its options.

\starttext

\startsetups[ruledtable]
   \setupTABLE [frame=off,align=middle,loffset=.5em,roffset=.5em]
   \setupTABLE [column] [each]  [leftframe=on,rightframe=on]
   \setupTABLE [row]    [first] 
[topframe=on,bottomframe=on,foregroundstyle=bold]
   \setupTABLE [row]    [last]  [bottomframe=on]
\stopsetups

\startTABLE[setups=ruledtable]
\NC Year \NC Citizens \NC\NR
\NC 1675 \NC ˜428     \NC\NR
\NC 1795 \NC 1124     \NC\NR
\NC 1880 \NC 2405     \NC\NR
\NC 1995 \NC 7408     \NC\NR
\stopTABLE

\stoptext

Wolfgang

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[NTG-context] Re: \starttable questions

[Jim]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 17:30 (+0100), Aditya Mahajan wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Jan 2024, Jim wrote:

>> In a recent answer on this list, Mikael helped someone by pointing out the
>> \HF[...] command.  The \HF command is not listed in the \starttable wiki page.

>> Q2: Is \HF[] documented anywhere?  If so, can someone point me to that/those
>> document(s)?

>> Perhaps an answer to Q2 will answer this one too, but in case it doesn't...

>> When using Wichura's \BeginTable ... \EndTable macros, I occasionally
>> use the \\+nm feature to add n points above the current line and/or m
>> points below the current line.

>> Q3: Does ConTexT's \starttable ... \endtable have this feature?
>> If so, how does one access this feature?

> I haven't looked at starttable in well over a decade, but I did document some of it:

> https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/Articles/tb28-3/tb90mahajan.pdf
> https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/Articles/tb29-1/tb91mahajan.pdf

Aditya,

thanks for those links.  Would you mind if I added them to the "See also"
section of the \starttable wiki page (notwithstanding someone's claim at the
top of the page saying they are obsolete)?

Cheers.
                                Jim

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[NTG-context] Re: \starttable questions

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2024, Jim wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 17:30 (+0100), Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> 
> > I haven't looked at starttable in well over a decade, but I did document some of it:
> 
> > https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/Articles/tb28-3/tb90mahajan.pdf
> > https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/Articles/tb29-1/tb91mahajan.pdf
> 
> Aditya,
> 
> thanks for those links.  Would you mind if I added them to the "See also"
> section of the \starttable wiki page (notwithstanding someone's claim at the
> top of the page saying they are obsolete)?

Of course that's okay. It's a wiki1

Aditya
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[NTG-context] Re: \starttable questions

[Jim]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 22:22 (+0100), Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

> Jim schrieb am 25.01.2024 um 22:01:
>> Hi Henning,

>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 17:16 (+0100), Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

>>> Am 25.01.24 um 16:12 schrieb Jim:
>>> > Hi, I was wondering if anyone here could help me with these three things:
>>> > For a long time I have been using Wichura's TaBle macros (i.e., what one
>>> > gets with
>>> >           \input table
>>> > in plain TeX) and would like to use what appears to be ConTeXt's version of
>>> > those (i.e., what one gets with \starttable ... \stoptable).

>>> > However, https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/starttable says
>>> > The environment \starttable ... \stoptable is and (sic) old and
>>> > nearly obsolete way to handle tabular material
>>> > Q1: are there plans to remove \starttable ... \endtable from ConTeXt any
>>> > time "soon", or is that wiki comment gratuitously pessimistic?

>>> Hans suggests to use tabulate as long as it fits.
>> I just gave that a try, using the same syntax as \starttable:

>> \starttable[|c|c|]
>> \HL
>> \VL \bf Year \VL \bf Citizens \VL\SR
>> \HL
>> \VL 1675 \VL ˜428 \VL\FR
>> \VL 1795 \VL 1124 \VL\MR
>> \VL 1880 \VL 2405 \VL\MR
>> \VL 1995 \VL 7408 \VL\LR
>> \HL
>> \stoptable

>> \starttabulate[|c|c|]
>> \HL
>> \VL \bf Year \VL \bf Citizens \VL\SR
>> \HL
>> \VL 1675 \VL ˜428 \VL\FR
>> \VL 1795 \VL 1124 \VL\MR
>> \VL 1880 \VL 2405 \VL\MR
>> \VL 1995 \VL 7408 \VL\LR
>> \HL
>> \stoptabulate

>> While tabulate produced a table with the above input, it needs some work to
>> make the table look good.  (The columns are too narrow, the vrules don't
>> meet the hrules, ...).

>> Perhaps these can be fixed with some tweaking, but I notice that in all of
>> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/starttabulate
>> and
>> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Tabulate
>> and
>> http://www.ntg.nl/maps/22/28.pdf
>> there is a conspicuous lack of examples with vrules.  And the tables in the
>> (at least) the starttabulate wiki page which use vrules don't use tabulate
>> to create the tables.

>> Coincidence?  I think not.  :-)

> Table which rely on rules to make the content readable have a serious
> problem
> (read Edward Tufte books how you can improve the visual style) but the
> better
> alternative in this case are either natural tables or extreme tables.

> Below is a example which uses the table like wrapper for natural tables
> which makes adding rules and changing the padding around text very
> simple because each table cell is a \framed block with all its options.

> \starttext

> \startsetups[ruledtable]
>   \setupTABLE [frame=off,align=middle,loffset=.5em,roffset=.5em]
>   \setupTABLE [column] [each]  [leftframe=on,rightframe=on]
>   \setupTABLE [row]    [first]
> [topframe=on,bottomframe=on,foregroundstyle=bold]
>   \setupTABLE [row]    [last]  [bottomframe=on]
> \stopsetups

> \startTABLE[setups=ruledtable]
> \NC Year \NC Citizens \NC\NR
> \NC 1675 \NC ˜428     \NC\NR
> \NC 1795 \NC 1124     \NC\NR
> \NC 1880 \NC 2405     \NC\NR
> \NC 1995 \NC 7408     \NC\NR
> \stopTABLE

> \stoptext

Wolfgang,

thanks for the response and the sample code.

[ Note to anyone else trying out this example: there are non-breakable
  spaces above, and depending on your system if you copy and paste them
  into a file, they will cause this code to fail.  ]


I won't argue with you about readability of tables, but if I am typesetting
something for someone and they want it a certain way, I don't want to get
into an argument about it with them either.  :-)


The nice thing about your setup above is that it is nice and structured.
But if a table calls for some row, column or cell to be treated
differently, I guess I am in for some more reading.

Cheers.
                                Jim
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[NTG-context] Re: \starttable questions

[vm via ntg-context]

On 26/01/2024 01:52, Jim wrote:
> I won't argue with you about readability of tables, but if I am typesetting
> something for someone and they want it a certain way, I don't want to get
> into an argument about it with them either.  :-)

It all depends on the level of ignorance of your client.
e.g. there is a difference between not doing something because you are 
unable to do it, or that you don't want to do it (for a reason).
In both cases nothing happens, but there is still a difference in the 
outcome.

.F
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[NTG-context] Re: \starttable questions

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Thu, 25 Jan 2024, Jim wrote:

> The nice thing about your setup above is that it is nice and structured.
> But if a table calls for some row, column or cell to be treated
> differently, I guess I am in for some more reading.

You can do: \setupTABLE[2][3] to select the formatting for row 3 and column 2 (or the other way around ... always forget). In the worst case, you can always do 

...
\NC .. \NC[options] ... \NC \NR
....

Each cell is just a \framed[...]; so all options for \framed[...] work for Natural Tables. 

Aditya
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[NTG-context] Re: \starttable questions

[Jim]

On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 09:55 (+0100), Aditya Mahajan wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Jan 2024, Jim wrote:

>> The nice thing about your setup above is that it is nice and structured.
>> But if a table calls for some row, column or cell to be treated
>> differently, I guess I am in for some more reading.

> You can do: \setupTABLE[2][3] to select the formatting for row 3 and column 2 (or the other way around ... always forget). In the worst case, you can always do 

> ...
> \NC .. \NC[options] ... \NC \NR
> ....

> Each cell is just a \framed[...]; so all options for \framed[...] work for Natural Tables. 

Aditya

thanks very much for that information.

I still appreciate the conciseness of the TaBlE macros (and thus
\starttable ... \endtable), but I also appreciate the power of the TABLE
macros.

                                Jim
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