[TUHS] Re: Jerq menuhit/mhit

[TUHS] Re: Jerq menuhit/mhit

[Norman Wilson]

I had an experience similar to Tom London's:

	To: alice!rob
	Subject: you've spoiled me

	I can't believe it.  I'm sitting here at home in front of my
	2621, and I can't work.

	Damn it.  I've got to get a blit at home.

When I left Bell Labs, I had an X11 workstation at work, but
only a simple terminal at home.  Having used a Jerqblit5620 for
years at both work and home, I found it incredibly limiting.

After a year or so I came across a reseller who had a lot of
off-lease 5620s for sale cheap (like USD 150 or so each).  I
asked around the university I now worked at, found a handful
of other people who wanted in, and then a local small company
who did System V system-administration consulting who wanted
some for themselves, and were willing to handle all the paperwork.
All that allowed us to negotiate the price down even more.

In the end I bought six, of which I think four are still working,
though I haven't turned any of them on for years.

None of the Unixes I used at the time came with 5620 support,
but the protocol for the basic window system built into the ROM
was well-documented and I managed to roll my own host support.
I also managed to cobble up my own binary-loading tools sufficient
to get sam working (I forget how I compiled the binary for the
terminal); that was rather more work, but it was worth it to
be able to have sam and multiple windows from home, even though
it was the ROM OS and therefore mpx rather than mux.

I remember porting my version of the host code to Ultrix,
SunOS 4, and IRIX.

My workplace at the time had a little bit of VAX/VMS around.
I didn't use that much but wanted to try porting my host code
to VMS as well.  VMS had had a C compiler for some years and
some sort of pseudo-terminal for a shorter time, so it ought
to have been possible.  I didn't get around to it before we
finally left VMS behind in the dustbin of history.  I wish I'd
found time to do it, just to show that there really was nothing
Unix-specific about the idea or the implementation.  It's just
a multiplexing protocol; it needs no kernel support except that
needed to run a command-line session not attached to a physical
terminal, and networking has long since made that available on
any competent OS.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

[TUHS] Re: Jerq menuhit/mhit

[arnold]

Good question. MGR was somewhat later. It was done by a guy at BellCore
if I remember correctly.  I used it some on a small sparcstation. On that
hardware it was super fast, whereas X11 was much slower. This would have
been in early-to-mid 90s.

Arnold

Dave Brown <dave@bagpuss.nu> wrote:

> Was there a connection between MGR and Blit?  Just from a programming
> standpoint there is similarities in that they both transport agnostic;
> using escape sequences for graphical/UI functions.  I know MGR code does
> little more than provide a bitblit interface and it’s upto whoever
> ports it to implement the interface to the hardware.
> 
> I took the MGR code, and extended the distribution for the Atari ST
> (added new demos, fonts and libraries); many years ago.
>
> Might be worth porting it to SDL for a giggle.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 2, 2023, at 3:11 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> > I had a DMD 5620 for a few (too short) years at Georgia Tech; AT&T
> > gifted a number of them as well as two 3B20s to us. We used the DMDs
> > on a vax running 4.2 BSD. They were heavy suckers! I think close to
> > 50 pounds!
> > 
> > It was wonderful to use.  Extremely productive as compared to a regular
> > terminal with just one session.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, there were enough of the things in use that it drove
> > the poor vax to its knees.
> > 
> > Nonetheless, I have fond memories of it to this day.
> > 
> > Arnold
> > 
> > Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> The original name was Jerq, which was first the name given by friends at
> >> Lucasfilm to the Three Rivers PERQ workstations they had, for which the
> >> Pascal-written software and operating system were unsatisfactory. Bart
> >> Locanthi and I (with Greg Chesson and Dave Ditzel?) visited Lucasfilm in
> >> 1981 and we saw all the potential there with none of the realization. My
> >> personal aha was that, as on the Alto, only one thing could be running at a
> >> time and that was a profound limitation. When we began to design our answer
> >> to these problems a few weeks later, we called Lucasfilm to ask if they
> >> minded us borrowing their excellent rude name, and they readily agreed.
> >> 
> >> Our slogan: A jerq at every desk.
> >> 
> >> This was cool, we had good shirts, and Bart even made license plates that
> >> read JERQ. But when the thing started to get interesting, Sam Morgan, 127's
> >> director, got very nervous. He didn't want to talk to his colleagues about
> >> how good our jerqs were. So he proposed "RX" (research experimental) and
> >> Bart and I immediately huddled down and came up with blit, from bitblt, and
> >> that was accepted. So it was Sam who forced the issue. A shame really, but
> >> BTL management wasn't famous for its sense of humor.
> >> 
> >> This is all with the 68000 original, which had been hand-built by us using
> >> wire wrap and then in larger but still modest numbers by a company on Long
> >> Island whose name was Northern Atlantic if I remember right. Wing Moy did
> >> most of the work there.
> >> 
> >> Teletype came and measured and analyzed and proposed building some with
> >> metal cases and more mass producible board technology, and that became what
> >> people around the company, and later elsewhere, called the Blit.
> >> 
> >> The DMD-5620 was the WE32000 version, which resulted from a decision by
> >> Scanlon to ram up WE32000 production by selling this product with the chip
> >> in it, at a loss because the chip alone cost something like $2000, compared
> >> to something like $25 for the 68000. Also, the WE32000 was far less
> >> suitable a chip, being buggy and also slower at the specific tasks like bit
> >> shifting that you needed for fast graphics.
> >> 
> >> I still have the license plate. Here's a picture I made today.
> >> 
> >> [image: IMG_4673.jpg]
> >> 
> >> For those perhaps too young to understand what a revolution the merging of
> >> graphics and multitasking was back then, some testimonials from the time:
> >> 
> >> From dmr Tue Apr  7 02:01 EST 1981 remote from research
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Don't lose interest in the jerq terminal stuff, no matter what
> >> 
> >> momentary problems you have with the device or the system.
> >> 
> >> I think the approach and the progress so far are very exciting.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> From wild!scj Sun Nov 21 09:52 EST 1982
> >> 
> >> Well, after an afternoon with the bilt, seeing asteroids, crabs, maxwell,
> >> 
> >> etc. etc, I asked Sarah what she liked best.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> "I liked mpx best"
> >> 
> >> 
> >> "What did you like about it?"
> >> 
> >> 
> >> "I liked making all the different boxes, and making all the different things
> >> 
> >> happen in them, and making them go away."
> >> 
> >> 
> >> I think "universal appeal" is not too strong a term...
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> From alice!vax135!tbl Sat May 14 12:07:42 1983
> >> 
> >> To: alice!rob
> >> 
> >> Subject: you've spoiled me
> >> 
> >> 
> >> I can't believe it.  I'm sitting here at home in front of my
> >> 
> >> 2621, and I can't work.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Damn it.  I've got to get a blit at home.
> >> 
> >> [Turner and I are really pleased with the software.  Good job!]
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> -rob
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 1:35 AM Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Speaking of the Jerq...
> >>> Is there a definitive history anywhere of the progression from Jerq up
> >>> through the AT&T 730MTG? When I wrote my DMD5620 emulator I tried to find a
> >>> complete history, but wasn't able to. I just found various (possibly
> >>> apocryphal) bits and pieces here and there about AT&T objecting to various
> >>> names until "DMD" was settled on by marketing at some point, and forcing
> >>> the use of a WE32K in the 5620 for make-corporate-happy reasons.
> >>> -Seth
> >>> --
> >>>  Seth Morabito * Poulsbo, WA * https://loomcom.com/

[TUHS] Re: Jerq menuhit/mhit

[Dave Brown]

Was there a connection between MGR and Blit?  Just from a programming standpoint there is similarities in that they both transport agnostic; using escape sequences for graphical/UI functions.  I know MGR code does little more than provide a bitblit interface and it’s upto whoever ports it to implement the interface to the hardware.

 I took the MGR code, and extended the distribution for the Atari ST (added new demos, fonts and libraries); many years ago.  

Might be worth porting it to SDL for a giggle.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 2, 2023, at 3:11 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> I had a DMD 5620 for a few (too short) years at Georgia Tech; AT&T
> gifted a number of them as well as two 3B20s to us. We used the DMDs
> on a vax running 4.2 BSD. They were heavy suckers! I think close to
> 50 pounds!
> 
> It was wonderful to use.  Extremely productive as compared to a regular
> terminal with just one session.
> 
> Unfortunately, there were enough of the things in use that it drove
> the poor vax to its knees.
> 
> Nonetheless, I have fond memories of it to this day.
> 
> Arnold
> 
> Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> The original name was Jerq, which was first the name given by friends at
>> Lucasfilm to the Three Rivers PERQ workstations they had, for which the
>> Pascal-written software and operating system were unsatisfactory. Bart
>> Locanthi and I (with Greg Chesson and Dave Ditzel?) visited Lucasfilm in
>> 1981 and we saw all the potential there with none of the realization. My
>> personal aha was that, as on the Alto, only one thing could be running at a
>> time and that was a profound limitation. When we began to design our answer
>> to these problems a few weeks later, we called Lucasfilm to ask if they
>> minded us borrowing their excellent rude name, and they readily agreed.
>> 
>> Our slogan: A jerq at every desk.
>> 
>> This was cool, we had good shirts, and Bart even made license plates that
>> read JERQ. But when the thing started to get interesting, Sam Morgan, 127's
>> director, got very nervous. He didn't want to talk to his colleagues about
>> how good our jerqs were. So he proposed "RX" (research experimental) and
>> Bart and I immediately huddled down and came up with blit, from bitblt, and
>> that was accepted. So it was Sam who forced the issue. A shame really, but
>> BTL management wasn't famous for its sense of humor.
>> 
>> This is all with the 68000 original, which had been hand-built by us using
>> wire wrap and then in larger but still modest numbers by a company on Long
>> Island whose name was Northern Atlantic if I remember right. Wing Moy did
>> most of the work there.
>> 
>> Teletype came and measured and analyzed and proposed building some with
>> metal cases and more mass producible board technology, and that became what
>> people around the company, and later elsewhere, called the Blit.
>> 
>> The DMD-5620 was the WE32000 version, which resulted from a decision by
>> Scanlon to ram up WE32000 production by selling this product with the chip
>> in it, at a loss because the chip alone cost something like $2000, compared
>> to something like $25 for the 68000. Also, the WE32000 was far less
>> suitable a chip, being buggy and also slower at the specific tasks like bit
>> shifting that you needed for fast graphics.
>> 
>> I still have the license plate. Here's a picture I made today.
>> 
>> [image: IMG_4673.jpg]
>> 
>> For those perhaps too young to understand what a revolution the merging of
>> graphics and multitasking was back then, some testimonials from the time:
>> 
>> From dmr Tue Apr  7 02:01 EST 1981 remote from research
>> 
>> 
>> Don't lose interest in the jerq terminal stuff, no matter what
>> 
>> momentary problems you have with the device or the system.
>> 
>> I think the approach and the progress so far are very exciting.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From wild!scj Sun Nov 21 09:52 EST 1982
>> 
>> Well, after an afternoon with the bilt, seeing asteroids, crabs, maxwell,
>> 
>> etc. etc, I asked Sarah what she liked best.
>> 
>> 
>> "I liked mpx best"
>> 
>> 
>> "What did you like about it?"
>> 
>> 
>> "I liked making all the different boxes, and making all the different things
>> 
>> happen in them, and making them go away."
>> 
>> 
>> I think "universal appeal" is not too strong a term...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From alice!vax135!tbl Sat May 14 12:07:42 1983
>> 
>> To: alice!rob
>> 
>> Subject: you've spoiled me
>> 
>> 
>> I can't believe it.  I'm sitting here at home in front of my
>> 
>> 2621, and I can't work.
>> 
>> 
>> Damn it.  I've got to get a blit at home.
>> 
>> [Turner and I are really pleased with the software.  Good job!]
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -rob
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 1:35 AM Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Speaking of the Jerq...
>>> Is there a definitive history anywhere of the progression from Jerq up
>>> through the AT&T 730MTG? When I wrote my DMD5620 emulator I tried to find a
>>> complete history, but wasn't able to. I just found various (possibly
>>> apocryphal) bits and pieces here and there about AT&T objecting to various
>>> names until "DMD" was settled on by marketing at some point, and forcing
>>> the use of a WE32K in the 5620 for make-corporate-happy reasons.
>>> -Seth
>>> --
>>>  Seth Morabito * Poulsbo, WA * https://loomcom.com/

[TUHS] Re: Jerq menuhit/mhit

[arnold]

I had a DMD 5620 for a few (too short) years at Georgia Tech; AT&T
gifted a number of them as well as two 3B20s to us. We used the DMDs
on a vax running 4.2 BSD. They were heavy suckers! I think close to
50 pounds!

It was wonderful to use.  Extremely productive as compared to a regular
terminal with just one session.

Unfortunately, there were enough of the things in use that it drove
the poor vax to its knees.

Nonetheless, I have fond memories of it to this day.

Arnold

Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> The original name was Jerq, which was first the name given by friends at
> Lucasfilm to the Three Rivers PERQ workstations they had, for which the
> Pascal-written software and operating system were unsatisfactory. Bart
> Locanthi and I (with Greg Chesson and Dave Ditzel?) visited Lucasfilm in
> 1981 and we saw all the potential there with none of the realization. My
> personal aha was that, as on the Alto, only one thing could be running at a
> time and that was a profound limitation. When we began to design our answer
> to these problems a few weeks later, we called Lucasfilm to ask if they
> minded us borrowing their excellent rude name, and they readily agreed.
>
> Our slogan: A jerq at every desk.
>
> This was cool, we had good shirts, and Bart even made license plates that
> read JERQ. But when the thing started to get interesting, Sam Morgan, 127's
> director, got very nervous. He didn't want to talk to his colleagues about
> how good our jerqs were. So he proposed "RX" (research experimental) and
> Bart and I immediately huddled down and came up with blit, from bitblt, and
> that was accepted. So it was Sam who forced the issue. A shame really, but
> BTL management wasn't famous for its sense of humor.
>
> This is all with the 68000 original, which had been hand-built by us using
> wire wrap and then in larger but still modest numbers by a company on Long
> Island whose name was Northern Atlantic if I remember right. Wing Moy did
> most of the work there.
>
> Teletype came and measured and analyzed and proposed building some with
> metal cases and more mass producible board technology, and that became what
> people around the company, and later elsewhere, called the Blit.
>
> The DMD-5620 was the WE32000 version, which resulted from a decision by
> Scanlon to ram up WE32000 production by selling this product with the chip
> in it, at a loss because the chip alone cost something like $2000, compared
> to something like $25 for the 68000. Also, the WE32000 was far less
> suitable a chip, being buggy and also slower at the specific tasks like bit
> shifting that you needed for fast graphics.
>
> I still have the license plate. Here's a picture I made today.
>
> [image: IMG_4673.jpg]
>
> For those perhaps too young to understand what a revolution the merging of
> graphics and multitasking was back then, some testimonials from the time:
>
> From dmr Tue Apr  7 02:01 EST 1981 remote from research
>
>
> Don't lose interest in the jerq terminal stuff, no matter what
>
> momentary problems you have with the device or the system.
>
> I think the approach and the progress so far are very exciting.
>
>
>
> From wild!scj Sun Nov 21 09:52 EST 1982
>
> Well, after an afternoon with the bilt, seeing asteroids, crabs, maxwell,
>
> etc. etc, I asked Sarah what she liked best.
>
>
> "I liked mpx best"
>
>
> "What did you like about it?"
>
>
> "I liked making all the different boxes, and making all the different things
>
> happen in them, and making them go away."
>
>
> I think "universal appeal" is not too strong a term...
>
>
>
> From alice!vax135!tbl Sat May 14 12:07:42 1983
>
> To: alice!rob
>
> Subject: you've spoiled me
>
>
> I can't believe it.  I'm sitting here at home in front of my
>
> 2621, and I can't work.
>
>
> Damn it.  I've got to get a blit at home.
>
> [Turner and I are really pleased with the software.  Good job!]
>
>
>
> -rob
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 1:35 AM Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote:
>
> > Speaking of the Jerq...
> >
> > Is there a definitive history anywhere of the progression from Jerq up
> > through the AT&T 730MTG? When I wrote my DMD5620 emulator I tried to find a
> > complete history, but wasn't able to. I just found various (possibly
> > apocryphal) bits and pieces here and there about AT&T objecting to various
> > names until "DMD" was settled on by marketing at some point, and forcing
> > the use of a WE32K in the 5620 for make-corporate-happy reasons.
> >
> > -Seth
> > --
> >   Seth Morabito * Poulsbo, WA * https://loomcom.com/
> >

[TUHS] Re: Jerq menuhit/mhit

[Rob Pike]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3977 bytes --]

The original name was Jerq, which was first the name given by friends at
Lucasfilm to the Three Rivers PERQ workstations they had, for which the
Pascal-written software and operating system were unsatisfactory. Bart
Locanthi and I (with Greg Chesson and Dave Ditzel?) visited Lucasfilm in
1981 and we saw all the potential there with none of the realization. My
personal aha was that, as on the Alto, only one thing could be running at a
time and that was a profound limitation. When we began to design our answer
to these problems a few weeks later, we called Lucasfilm to ask if they
minded us borrowing their excellent rude name, and they readily agreed.

Our slogan: A jerq at every desk.

This was cool, we had good shirts, and Bart even made license plates that
read JERQ. But when the thing started to get interesting, Sam Morgan, 127's
director, got very nervous. He didn't want to talk to his colleagues about
how good our jerqs were. So he proposed "RX" (research experimental) and
Bart and I immediately huddled down and came up with blit, from bitblt, and
that was accepted. So it was Sam who forced the issue. A shame really, but
BTL management wasn't famous for its sense of humor.

This is all with the 68000 original, which had been hand-built by us using
wire wrap and then in larger but still modest numbers by a company on Long
Island whose name was Northern Atlantic if I remember right. Wing Moy did
most of the work there.

Teletype came and measured and analyzed and proposed building some with
metal cases and more mass producible board technology, and that became what
people around the company, and later elsewhere, called the Blit.

The DMD-5620 was the WE32000 version, which resulted from a decision by
Scanlon to ram up WE32000 production by selling this product with the chip
in it, at a loss because the chip alone cost something like $2000, compared
to something like $25 for the 68000. Also, the WE32000 was far less
suitable a chip, being buggy and also slower at the specific tasks like bit
shifting that you needed for fast graphics.

I still have the license plate. Here's a picture I made today.

[image: IMG_4673.jpg]

For those perhaps too young to understand what a revolution the merging of
graphics and multitasking was back then, some testimonials from the time:

From dmr Tue Apr  7 02:01 EST 1981 remote from research


Don't lose interest in the jerq terminal stuff, no matter what

momentary problems you have with the device or the system.

I think the approach and the progress so far are very exciting.



From wild!scj Sun Nov 21 09:52 EST 1982

Well, after an afternoon with the bilt, seeing asteroids, crabs, maxwell,

etc. etc, I asked Sarah what she liked best.


"I liked mpx best"


"What did you like about it?"


"I liked making all the different boxes, and making all the different things

happen in them, and making them go away."


I think "universal appeal" is not too strong a term...



From alice!vax135!tbl Sat May 14 12:07:42 1983

To: alice!rob

Subject: you've spoiled me


I can't believe it.  I'm sitting here at home in front of my

2621, and I can't work.


Damn it.  I've got to get a blit at home.

[Turner and I are really pleased with the software.  Good job!]



-rob


On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 1:35 AM Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote:

> Speaking of the Jerq...
>
> Is there a definitive history anywhere of the progression from Jerq up
> through the AT&T 730MTG? When I wrote my DMD5620 emulator I tried to find a
> complete history, but wasn't able to. I just found various (possibly
> apocryphal) bits and pieces here and there about AT&T objecting to various
> names until "DMD" was settled on by marketing at some point, and forcing
> the use of a WE32K in the 5620 for make-corporate-happy reasons.
>
> -Seth
> --
>   Seth Morabito * Poulsbo, WA * https://loomcom.com/
>

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[TUHS] Re: Jerq menuhit/mhit

[Seth Morabito]

Speaking of the Jerq...

Is there a definitive history anywhere of the progression from Jerq up through the AT&T 730MTG? When I wrote my DMD5620 emulator I tried to find a complete history, but wasn't able to. I just found various (possibly apocryphal) bits and pieces here and there about AT&T objecting to various names until "DMD" was settled on by marketing at some point, and forcing the use of a WE32K in the 5620 for make-corporate-happy reasons.

-Seth
-- 
  Seth Morabito * Poulsbo, WA * https://loomcom.com/

[TUHS] Re: Jerq menuhit/mhit

[Andrew Hume]

i remember mhit well.

generally, most folks thought the user interface had gone wrong
if you needed to handle such large lists in a menu. so there was
a mild cultural prejudice against such things.

however, i needed it for a couple of projects, including circuit layout
software. you can imagine selecting chips from such a menu
and so on.

> On Jun 29, 2023, at 3:15 PM, Noel Hunt <noel.hunt@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...

> The earliest version in the Eight Edition jerq code, also has
> one function in the NMenu structure which is called when the
> mouse pointer invokes a hierarchical menu. By Ninth Edition
> this has been expanded, with 3 functions, one as above, one
> invoked when an item is selected ('hit') and one when a
> hierarchical menu is exited.
> 
> In the jerq code directories, under 'lib/jj', is a small 'ms'
> document, 'A Library of Goo for the 5620', which lists
> routines available in the library, and their authors. Andrew
> Hume is listed as the author of 'mhit'.
> 
> Are there examples of code using these three menu functions
> ('dfn', 'hfn', 'bfn')?