[TUHS] PDP-10 in the news today

[TUHS] PDP-10 in the news today

[Nelson H. F. Beebe]

This story appears today in The Register:

        PDP-10 enthusiasts resurrect ancient MIT operating system
        Incompatible Timesharing System now compatible with modern machines
        https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/30/pdp10_enthusiasts_resurrect_ancient_mit_operating_system/

Near the end of the story is a mention of SIMH and of KLH10, both
of which emulate the PDP-10.  There is also mention of a PDP-11
emulator running inside ITS.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
- University of Utah                    FAX: +1 801 581 4148                  -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe at acm.org  beebe at computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
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[TUHS] PDP-10 in the news today

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:
> Near the end of the story is a mention of SIMH and of KLH10, both
> of which emulate the PDP-10.  There is also mention of a PDP-11
> emulator running inside ITS.

Hmm, does the PDP-11 item make this on topic for TUHS? :-)

There is actually a lot of PDP-11 software in ITS, because 11s were used
all over the place as dedicated processors to control hardware devices.
There's a cross assembler called PALX, and several debuggers called RUG
and CARPET.

No Unix though.

[TUHS] PDP-10 in the news today

[Peter Jeremy]

On 2017-Jan-31 08:41:14 +0100, Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote:
>Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:
>> Near the end of the story is a mention of SIMH and of KLH10, both
>> of which emulate the PDP-10.  There is also mention of a PDP-11
>> emulator running inside ITS.
>
>Hmm, does the PDP-11 item make this on topic for TUHS? :-)

I suspect this would be more on-topic in PUPS than TUHS.

-- 
Peter Jeremy
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[TUHS] PDP-10 in the news today

[Clem Cole]

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On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:12 AM, Peter Jeremy <peter at rulingia.com> wrote:

> I suspect this would be more on-topic in PUPS than TUH


​Warren - please correct me if I am mistaken/changed this since the last
time I checked up on these things, the PUPS mailing list was retired as the
URL for the PUPS mailing list on the PDP Unix Preservation Society Home Page
<http://minnie.tuhs.org/PUPS/> says it is out of date and tells people to
go to TUHS and the mailing list URL  Subscribe to the PUPS mailing list
<http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups> comes back as "No such list:
*pups*"
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[TUHS] PDP-10 in the news today

[Warren Toomey]

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:12 AM, Peter Jeremy <peter at rulingia.com> wrote:
>      I suspect this would be more on-topic in PUPS than TUH
 
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 09:19:33AM -0500, Clem Cole wrote:
>    Warren - please correct me if I am mistaken/changed this since the
>    last time I checked up on these things, the PUPS mailing list was
>    retired.

Yes, a while back I merged the two mailing lists so we have only TUHS now.

I don't mind a bit of off-topic posting, but an on-going thread which
isn't related to Unix isn't so good.

Cheers all, Warren

[TUHS] PDP-10 in the news today

[Nigel Williams]

In the wikipedia entry on the DEC PDP-10, it has this comment:

"The PDP-10 is the machine that made time-sharing common, and this and
other features made it a common fixture in many university computing
facilities and research labs during the 1970s..."

Is it a reasonable claim that the PDP-10 made time-sharing "common"
(note it says "the machine")? I'm presuming that "common" should be
read as ubiquitous and accessible (as in lower-cost than
competing/alternative options from other manufacturers or even DEC).

I'm wondering if it was really the combination of the PDP-11
(lower-cost more models) and Unix ("free" license to universities)
that propelled time-sharing, at least at universities.

[TUHS] PDP-10 in the news today

[Noel Chiappa]

    > There is also mention of a PDP-11 emulator running inside ITS.

SYSENG;11SIM >

	     Noel

[TUHS] PDP-10 in the news today

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Lars Brinkhoff

    > several debuggers called RUG and CARPET

SYSENG;CARPET > and SYSENG;KLRUG > (and also SYSEN2;URUG >).

CARPET runs in the PDP-10, and talks to the 11's via the Rubin 10-11 interface
on MIT-AI (which let the PDP-10 see into the PDP-11s' memory); it installed a
small toehold in the 11 (e.g. for trap handling). There was also a version
(conditionalized in the source) called "Hali" ("Hali is Carpet over a [serial]
line") - 'hali' is Turkish for 'carpet' (I wonder how someone knew that).

RUG runs in the front-end 11 on the KL (MIT-MC). URUG is a really simple
version of RUG that runs in a GT40, and use the GT40 display for output.

There's also 11DDT (KLDCP;11DDT >) - not sure why both this and KLRUG exist -
unless RUG was for the front-end 11, and 11DDT was for the I/O-11?

	Noel

[TUHS] PDP-10 in the news today

[Nelson H. F. Beebe]

Nigel Williams <nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com> asks on the TUHS list today:

>> ...
>> Is it a reasonable claim that the PDP-10 made time-sharing "common"
>> (note it says "the machine")? I'm presuming that "common" should be
>> read as ubiquitous and accessible (as in lower-cost than
>> competing/alternative options from other manufacturers or even DEC).
>> 
>> I'm wondering if it was really the combination of the PDP-11
>> (lower-cost more models) and Unix ("free" license to universities)
>> that propelled time-sharing, at least at universities.
>> ...

I worked on the IBM ATS (Administrative Terminal System) for text
processing in the early 1970s, and for several years, on the CDC 6400
under both SCOPE and KRONOS operating systems.  Those were mainframe
environments, but users scattered around campus accessed them via
glass terminals, so that was certainly time sharing.

Later, for 12 years (1978--1990), I also worked on TOPS-20 on the
PDP-10, and that too was time sharing, with most users having a
terminal on their desks.  We also had PDP-11 and LSI-11 systems, but
they ran DEC proprietary operating systems, and were generally
dedicated to particular research hardware.

It was only in the early 1980s that my institution also began to run
Unix systems, initially Wollongong BSD on VAX 750s, and then in 1987,
with our first Sun workstations running SunOS.  Thus, for me at least,
Unix time sharing came a dozen years late (though it was still
welcome, and remains so today).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
- University of Utah                    FAX: +1 801 581 4148                  -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe at acm.org  beebe at computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[TUHS] PDP-10 in the news today

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Nigel Williams

    > Is it a reasonable claim that the PDP-10 made time-sharing "common"
    > ... I'm presuming that "common" should be read as ubiquitous and
    > accessible
    > I'm wondering if it was really the combination of the PDP-11

Good question; I think a case can be made both ways.

    > (lower-cost more models)

One observation I will make: the two don't have identical time-lines; the
earliest PDP-10 models predate the PDP-11 by a good chunk, and the PDP-11
out-lasted the PDP-10. So that has a big influence, I think, on the question
above.

The first PDP-10 (the KA - we'll leave aside the even earlier PDP-6) was made
out of small cards with individual transistors (B-series Flip Chips), whereas
the earliest PDP-11 model (the -11/20) used SSI TTL on much larger cards.
Ditto on the other end: the last PDP-10 sold used 29xx bit-slice technology,
whereas the PDP-11 lasted through three generations of microprocessor (the
LSI-11, Fonz, and Jaws).

	Noel

[TUHS] PDP-10 in the news today

[Clem Cole]

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On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Nigel Williams
>     > Is it a reasonable claim that the PDP-10 made time-sharing "common"
> ​ ​
> ... I'm presuming that "common" should be read as ubiquitous and accessible
>     > I'm wondering if it was really the combination of the PDP-11
>
> Good question; I think a case can be made both ways.

​I agree.
​

>
>
>     > (lower-cost more models)
>
> One observation I will make: the two don't have identical time-lines; the
> ​ ​
> earliest PDP-10 models predate the PDP-11 by a good chunk, and the PDP-11
> ​ ​
> out-lasted the PDP-10. So that has a big influence, I think, on the
> ​q​
> uestion
> ​ ​
> above.


​Certainly if you include the virtual address extension - aka VAX to the
PDP-11 family - which was birthed in '76.​  Then I would agree the
PDP11/VAX/UNIX combo had case for a larger *footprint*  for making
timesharing "common" from 70-79 -- which is the time period mentioned in
the Wikipedia article.

But I do think to fair to the Wikipedia authors, the 10 and 20 families
during the 1970s were the pretty much the machines that defined the idea of
timesharing to most small colleges and smaller universities until UNIX
takes its stride.

CDC and IBM had a footprint in large and well funded places.  But even in
those schools, the 10/20 was still king in the CS Dept, until UNIX
displaced it.
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