[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Mary Ann Horton

    > What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD Wisc
    > version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or
    > NFS ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.

Someone should add the equivalent of Ersatz-11's 'DOS' device to SIMH; it's a
pseudo-device that can read files on the host filesystem. (Other stuff too,
but that's the relevant one here.) A short device driver in the emulated OS,
and a program to talk to it, and voila, getting a file into the emulated
system is a short one line command, none of this hassle with putting the bits
on a virtual tape, etc, etc.

I found editing files with 'ed' on my simulated V6 system painful (although i
still have the mental microcode to do it), so I did my editing under Windows
(Epsilon), and then read the file down to the Unix to compile it. Initially I
was doing it by putting the file on a raw virtual pack, and doing something
similar to that tape kludge. Then I got smart, and whipped up a driver for the
DOS device in Ersatz-11, and a program that used it, to allow me to easily
read a file from the Windows filesystem down to the Unix. Going around the
compile-debug-edit loop is totally painless now.

	Noel

[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[Arthur Krewat]

I haven't done it, but wouldn't Kermit be relatively painless over a 
serial line?

http://www.kermitproject.org/ck90.html

I used it on TOPS-10 and SIMH, using a TELNET connection into an 
emulated DZ11 (the version that I got working with SIMH, not the newer one).

Put KERMIT on the BSD side into server mode, and just send all the files 
you want to.



On 4/9/2017 7:10 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Mary Ann Horton
>
>      > What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD Wisc
>      > version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or
>      > NFS ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.
>
> Someone should add the equivalent of Ersatz-11's 'DOS' device to SIMH; it's a
> pseudo-device that can read files on the host filesystem. (Other stuff too,
> but that's the relevant one here.) A short device driver in the emulated OS,
> and a program to talk to it, and voila, getting a file into the emulated
> system is a short one line command, none of this hassle with putting the bits
> on a virtual tape, etc, etc.
>
> I found editing files with 'ed' on my simulated V6 system painful (although i
> still have the mental microcode to do it), so I did my editing under Windows
> (Epsilon), and then read the file down to the Unix to compile it. Initially I
> was doing it by putting the file on a raw virtual pack, and doing something
> similar to that tape kludge. Then I got smart, and whipped up a driver for the
> DOS device in Ersatz-11, and a program that used it, to allow me to easily
> read a file from the Windows filesystem down to the Unix. Going around the
> compile-debug-edit loop is totally painless now.
>
> 	Noel
>

[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[Jason Stevens]

Sorry for replying off the chain, but here is Apache 1.3.6 compiled for 4.3 UWisc.

It's strictly a "wow it linked" stage, and this is just my source tree that I've compiled in.  I did get it to serve an empty directory to me, so I know that much works.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/Package%20Tapes/4.3%20BSD%20Uwisc/Apache-1.3.6.compiled.BSD-4.3.Uwisc.tap.bz2/download

It's been a busy day, but I'll try to get a webdav static compile.

If anyone is crazy enough to try it themselves, tell Apache you are running NeXTSTEP, (-DNEXT) as it's a 4.3BSD and seems to be close enough, with the exception that there is no shared libraries.

On April 11, 2017 12:13:02 AM GMT+08:00, William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com> wrote:
>Either extract Warren's ftp from the template tar tape or I think it's
>on anonymous ftp at lakewoodmicro.com. 
>
>Bill
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net>
>To: William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com>
>Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
>Sent: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:23
>Subject: Re: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
>
>Bill, mine is set up to NAT, and here's the FTP failure I get. How did 
>you set up your NIC?
>
>Thanks,
>
>     Mary Ann
>
>
>% who > who.out
>% ftp mah
>Connected to mah.
>220 mah FTP server (Version 6.4/OpenBSD/Linux-ftpd-0.17) ready.
>Name (mah:mah):
>331 Password required for mah.
>Password:
>230 User mah logged in.
>ftp> debug
>Debugging on (debug=1).
>ftp> put who.out
>---> PORT 10,0,2,4,4,33
>500 Illegal PORT rejected (address wrong).
>---> STOR who.out
>425 Can't build data connection: Connection refused.
>ftp> quit
>---> QUIT
>221 Goodbye.
>
>cbosgd# ifconfig de0
>de0: flags=43<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING>
>         inet 10.0.2.4 netmask ffffff00 broadcast 10.0.2.255
>
>mah@/home/mah/src/vax/4.3-wisc> grep xu  boot2.ini
>set xu enable
>attach xu nat:
>
>
>On 04/09/2017 08:32 PM, William Pechter wrote:
>> Ftp works.  I wish I could get lynx and wet to build.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers, Warren

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[Jason Stevens]

How?  SLiRP is user mode code.  It's the one doing the nat.

On April 10, 2017 11:43:22 PM GMT+08:00, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Apr 2017, Jason Stevens wrote:
>
>> Nat and vintage ftp won't get along.  You need something that does
>passive on the VAX.
>>
>
>I wonder if pf's ftp-proxy approach helps any...
>
>-- 
>Cory Smelosky
>http://gewt.net Personal stuff
>http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[William Pechter]

Either extract Warren's ftp from the template tar tape or I think it's on anonymous ftp at lakewoodmicro.com. 

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Ann Horton <mah@mhorton.net>
To: William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com>
Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:23
Subject: Re: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

Bill, mine is set up to NAT, and here's the FTP failure I get. How did 
you set up your NIC?

Thanks,

     Mary Ann


% who > who.out
% ftp mah
Connected to mah.
220 mah FTP server (Version 6.4/OpenBSD/Linux-ftpd-0.17) ready.
Name (mah:mah):
331 Password required for mah.
Password:
230 User mah logged in.
ftp> debug
Debugging on (debug=1).
ftp> put who.out
---> PORT 10,0,2,4,4,33
500 Illegal PORT rejected (address wrong).
---> STOR who.out
425 Can't build data connection: Connection refused.
ftp> quit
---> QUIT
221 Goodbye.

cbosgd# ifconfig de0
de0: flags=43<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING>
         inet 10.0.2.4 netmask ffffff00 broadcast 10.0.2.255

mah@/home/mah/src/vax/4.3-wisc> grep xu  boot2.ini
set xu enable
attach xu nat:


On 04/09/2017 08:32 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> Ftp works.  I wish I could get lynx and wet to build.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> Cheers, Warren

[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[Cory Smelosky]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2017, Jason Stevens wrote:

> Nat and vintage ftp won't get along.  You need something that does passive on the VAX.
>

I wonder if pf's ftp-proxy approach helps any...

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[Jason Stevens]

Nat and vintage ftp won't get along.  You need something that does passive on the VAX.

On April 10, 2017 11:23:51 PM GMT+08:00, Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:
>Bill, mine is set up to NAT, and here's the FTP failure I get. How did 
>you set up your NIC?
>
>Thanks,
>
>     Mary Ann
>
>
>% who > who.out
>% ftp mah
>Connected to mah.
>220 mah FTP server (Version 6.4/OpenBSD/Linux-ftpd-0.17) ready.
>Name (mah:mah):
>331 Password required for mah.
>Password:
>230 User mah logged in.
>ftp> debug
>Debugging on (debug=1).
>ftp> put who.out
>---> PORT 10,0,2,4,4,33
>500 Illegal PORT rejected (address wrong).
>---> STOR who.out
>425 Can't build data connection: Connection refused.
>ftp> quit
>---> QUIT
>221 Goodbye.
>
>cbosgd# ifconfig de0
>de0: flags=43<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING>
>         inet 10.0.2.4 netmask ffffff00 broadcast 10.0.2.255
>
>mah@/home/mah/src/vax/4.3-wisc> grep xu  boot2.ini
>set xu enable
>attach xu nat:
>
>
>On 04/09/2017 08:32 PM, William Pechter wrote:
>> Ftp works.  I wish I could get lynx and wet to build.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers, Warren

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[Mary Ann Horton]

Bill, mine is set up to NAT, and here's the FTP failure I get. How did 
you set up your NIC?

Thanks,

     Mary Ann


% who > who.out
% ftp mah
Connected to mah.
220 mah FTP server (Version 6.4/OpenBSD/Linux-ftpd-0.17) ready.
Name (mah:mah):
331 Password required for mah.
Password:
230 User mah logged in.
ftp> debug
Debugging on (debug=1).
ftp> put who.out
---> PORT 10,0,2,4,4,33
500 Illegal PORT rejected (address wrong).
---> STOR who.out
425 Can't build data connection: Connection refused.
ftp> quit
---> QUIT
221 Goodbye.

cbosgd# ifconfig de0
de0: flags=43<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING>
         inet 10.0.2.4 netmask ffffff00 broadcast 10.0.2.255

mah@/home/mah/src/vax/4.3-wisc> grep xu  boot2.ini
set xu enable
attach xu nat:


On 04/09/2017 08:32 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> Ftp works.  I wish I could get lynx and wet to build.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> Cheers, Warren

[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[Henry Bent]

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I haven't worked too much with 4.3BSD but I have worked extensively with
Ultrix 1 which is basically 4.2.  If you can get a relatively recent gmake
and gcc 2 going, that should be enough to get bash 2 built, and from there
you can use that to run configure scripts with LIBS=-liberty which should
be enough for most smaller programs.  Perl 5.6 should be possible. If you
really want a web server, maybe try thttpd.  MySQL/PHP/WebDAV seem like a
pipe dream, 4.3BSD doesn't have dynamic loading and even if you can get
around that you're still going to run into memory limitations in a big
hurry.

Personally, I just set up rsh so that I can use rcp to move files in and
out. Setting up rsh on a modern OS can be a pain but it's still much
simpler than most of what is being proposed here. I find that life is much
easier if you look at what tools are available in the historic OS and find
a way to use those with a modern OS, rather than the other way around.

Oh, and I'm not sure what the 4.3BSD default is, but make sure your
interface isn't using trailers. They don't play well with modern networking.

-Henry

On 9 April 2017 at 23:56, <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:

> I have a pre-built Lynx for 4.3 UWISC here:
>
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/Package%
> 20Tapes/4.3%20BSD%20Uwisc/lynx-2.8.2.binary.BSD-4.3.Uwisc.tap.bz2/download
>
>
>
> I recall 4.3 RENO being incredibly unstable, and having major issues
> compiling lynx as some of the files are pretty big.  Basically I found 4.3
> UWisc hiding in a directory on TUHS, and though I’d see what it was and I
> found it to be a FAR FAR superior thing to not only RENO, but stock 4.3 .
>
>
>
> Speaking of AberMUD, I have version 2 built for pretty much everything....
>
>
>
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/Package%
> 20Tapes/4.3%20BSD%20Uwisc/AberMUD-2.BSD-4.3.Uwisc.tap.bz2/download
>
>
>
> I need to troll the old usenet stuff for some sz/rz and an old httpd,
> maybe Apache 1.3 may work as well, I mean I did get it to actually build
> for NT 3. 1 of all things, so a BSD shouldn’t be such a long shot.  Maybe
> add in a perl, and we can have a semi useful gateway....  Although I guess
> adding in MySQL and going full *AMP may be a bit crazy, but it could be
> useful.. And maybe it’d open up WebDAV for shuffling files around.
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Monday, 10 April 2017 11:33 AM
> *To: *Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net>; Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org>
> *Cc: *TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
>
>
>
> Should work fine with the 4.3 template tape... But I would save the
> original kernel
>
> just in case
>
>
>
> I moved binaries from the older 4.3 to Reno and uWisc without problems.
>
>
>
> Ftp works.  I wish I could get lynx and wet to build.
>
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org>
>
> To: Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net>
>
> Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
>
> Sent: Sun, 09 Apr 2017 20:05
>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 10:14:06AM -0700, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
>
> > What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD Wisc
>
> > version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or
> NFS
>
> > ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.
>
>
>
> I don't know how close 4.3UWisc is (in terms of config files etc.) to
>
> valilla 4.3BSD, but you might be able to untar the 4bsd-uucp customisation
>
> tarball over the top of 4.3UWisc. That would get you the ftp binary with
>
> PASV on by default, and the de0 interface set up with a working NAT IP
>
> address. Then you could set up a local ftp server on another box.
>
>
>
> I'm nearly out the door for a week's break else I'd try it out.
>
> Cheers, Warren
>
>
>
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[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[jsteve]

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I have a pre-built Lynx for 4.3 UWISC here:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/Package%20Tapes/4.3%20BSD%20Uwisc/lynx-2.8.2.binary.BSD-4.3.Uwisc.tap.bz2/download

I recall 4.3 RENO being incredibly unstable, and having major issues compiling lynx as some of the files are pretty big.  Basically I found 4.3 UWisc hiding in a directory on TUHS, and though I’d see what it was and I found it to be a FAR FAR superior thing to not only RENO, but stock 4.3 .

Speaking of AberMUD, I have version 2 built for pretty much everything....

https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/Package%20Tapes/4.3%20BSD%20Uwisc/AberMUD-2.BSD-4.3.Uwisc.tap.bz2/download

I need to troll the old usenet stuff for some sz/rz and an old httpd, maybe Apache 1.3 may work as well, I mean I did get it to actually build for NT 3. 1 of all things, so a BSD shouldn’t be such a long shot.  Maybe add in a perl, and we can have a semi useful gateway....  Although I guess adding in MySQL and going full *AMP may be a bit crazy, but it could be useful.. And maybe it’d open up WebDAV for shuffling files around.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: William Pechter
Sent: Monday, 10 April 2017 11:33 AM
To: Mary Ann Horton; Warren Toomey
Cc: TUHS main list
Subject: Re: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

Should work fine with the 4.3 template tape... But I would save the original kernel
just in case

I moved binaries from the older 4.3 to Reno and uWisc without problems. 

Ftp works.  I wish I could get lynx and wet to build. 

Bill





-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org>
To: Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net>
Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent: Sun, 09 Apr 2017 20:05
Subject: Re: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 10:14:06AM -0700, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
> What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD Wisc
> version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or NFS
> ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.

I don't know how close 4.3UWisc is (in terms of config files etc.) to
valilla 4.3BSD, but you might be able to untar the 4bsd-uucp customisation
tarball over the top of 4.3UWisc. That would get you the ftp binary with
PASV on by default, and the de0 interface set up with a working NAT IP
address. Then you could set up a local ftp server on another box.

I'm nearly out the door for a week's break else I'd try it out.
Cheers, Warren

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[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[William Pechter]

Should work fine with the 4.3 template tape... But I would save the original kernel
just in case

I moved binaries from the older 4.3 to Reno and uWisc without problems. 

Ftp works.  I wish I could get lynx and wet to build. 

Bill





-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org>
To: Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net>
Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent: Sun, 09 Apr 2017 20:05
Subject: Re: [TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 10:14:06AM -0700, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
> What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD Wisc
> version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or NFS
> ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.

I don't know how close 4.3UWisc is (in terms of config files etc.) to
valilla 4.3BSD, but you might be able to untar the 4bsd-uucp customisation
tarball over the top of 4.3UWisc. That would get you the ftp binary with
PASV on by default, and the de0 interface set up with a working NAT IP
address. Then you could set up a local ftp server on another box.

I'm nearly out the door for a week's break else I'd try it out.
Cheers, Warren

[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[Jason Stevens]

You have to remember this is old stuff, so you will have to fight protocol drift.

Simh has issues using pcap and talking to the host is, it's more so a pcap limitation.  I think the newer version has tun/tap support which may be easier to deal with, although more involved.

My favorite way was using a web server to serve files out.  As for getting stuff in, a simple CGI or like thing for uploading.

Back in 4.3 land, ftp is going to be active mode, there was no nat, no passive mode, so you'll need to configure accordingly.

How do you have your lan setup?  What host OS? Are you trying to access fSit from the same machine?  

In the past I've had to use uuencode/uudecode on a connection to transfer the bare minimum of a pre-compiled GCC to sparc solaris, so I know this pain.

Also don't forget if you have tty access you can build sz/rz and use Z-modem.

NFS should be present in UWisc, it has many Sun stuff built in.  But keep in mind it's very old, and could easily suffer from odd things like block size issues, akin to stuff like ancient Sun-100U / Sun-2 had.

On April 10, 2017 1:14:06 AM GMT+08:00, Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:
>Apologies if this is already on the list somewhere.
>
>What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD
>Wisc 
>version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or 
>NFS ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.
>
>Also, what's the recommended way to shut down the system?  I shutdown 
>now to single user, then sync a few times, then ^E, but when I boot 
>again I get fsck errors serious enough to require a manual fsck (which 
>generally works fine.)
>
>Thanks,
>
>     Mary Ann

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[Warren Toomey]

On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 10:14:06AM -0700, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
> What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD Wisc
> version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or NFS
> ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.

I don't know how close 4.3UWisc is (in terms of config files etc.) to
valilla 4.3BSD, but you might be able to untar the 4bsd-uucp customisation
tarball over the top of 4.3UWisc. That would get you the ftp binary with
PASV on by default, and the de0 interface set up with a working NAT IP
address. Then you could set up a local ftp server on another box.

I'm nearly out the door for a week's break else I'd try it out.
Cheers, Warren

[TUHS] 4.3 Wisc file transfer

[Mary Ann Horton]

Apologies if this is already on the list somewhere.

What's the best way to transfer files in and out of the simh 4.3BSD Wisc 
version?  I can do it with tape files, but it seems like FTP or ssh or 
NFS ought to be possible, and none is behaving at first blush.

Also, what's the recommended way to shut down the system?  I shutdown 
now to single user, then sync a few times, then ^E, but when I boot 
again I get fsck errors serious enough to require a manual fsck (which 
generally works fine.)

Thanks,

     Mary Ann