* [TUHS] Jerq menuhit/mhit @ 2023-06-29 22:15 Noel Hunt 2023-06-29 22:22 ` [TUHS] " Andrew Hume 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Noel Hunt @ 2023-06-29 22:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Unix Heritage Society The standard routine for drawing menus on the jerq was 'menuhit'. Items in the menu were centered, and the menu was scrollable when a certain threshold number of items was reached, and in addition, when the mouse pointer was in the top (bottom) item of the menu and it was possible to scroll in the appropriate direction, the menu was scrolled up or down 1 line. The structure associated with these menus is 'Menu'. There was however another menu-drawing routine, 'mhit', the menus drawn by this being hierarchical, the structure NMenu, which no longer contained text strings but an array of NItems. NMenus also had provision for 'help' text to be displayed, a simple string displayed on the screen, when button 1 was pressed while an entry in the menu was selected. The earliest version in the Eight Edition jerq code, also has one function in the NMenu structure which is called when the mouse pointer invokes a hierarchical menu. By Ninth Edition this has been expanded, with 3 functions, one as above, one invoked when an item is selected ('hit') and one when a hierarchical menu is exited. In the jerq code directories, under 'lib/jj', is a small 'ms' document, 'A Library of Goo for the 5620', which lists routines available in the library, and their authors. Andrew Hume is listed as the author of 'mhit'. Are there examples of code using these three menu functions ('dfn', 'hfn', 'bfn')? There seems to have been little interest in hierarchical menus at the labs, their use was quite limited. I found a program in the Tenth Edition archive, 'bubble' (which seems to be a program for displaying the three-dimensional structure of molecules) which uses them. 'samuel' made heavy use of them, including use of the 'hit' function, and Tom Cargill used basically the same code in 'pads' wherein the routine was called 'scripthit'. The plain 'menuhit' survived into Plan9, but as far as I know, it is only used by 'sam'. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Jerq menuhit/mhit 2023-06-29 22:15 [TUHS] Jerq menuhit/mhit Noel Hunt @ 2023-06-29 22:22 ` Andrew Hume 2023-06-30 15:28 ` Seth Morabito 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Andrew Hume @ 2023-06-29 22:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Noel Hunt; +Cc: The Unix Heritage Society i remember mhit well. generally, most folks thought the user interface had gone wrong if you needed to handle such large lists in a menu. so there was a mild cultural prejudice against such things. however, i needed it for a couple of projects, including circuit layout software. you can imagine selecting chips from such a menu and so on. > On Jun 29, 2023, at 3:15 PM, Noel Hunt <noel.hunt@gmail.com> wrote: > ... > The earliest version in the Eight Edition jerq code, also has > one function in the NMenu structure which is called when the > mouse pointer invokes a hierarchical menu. By Ninth Edition > this has been expanded, with 3 functions, one as above, one > invoked when an item is selected ('hit') and one when a > hierarchical menu is exited. > > In the jerq code directories, under 'lib/jj', is a small 'ms' > document, 'A Library of Goo for the 5620', which lists > routines available in the library, and their authors. Andrew > Hume is listed as the author of 'mhit'. > > Are there examples of code using these three menu functions > ('dfn', 'hfn', 'bfn')? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Jerq menuhit/mhit 2023-06-29 22:22 ` [TUHS] " Andrew Hume @ 2023-06-30 15:28 ` Seth Morabito 2023-06-30 22:14 ` Rob Pike 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Seth Morabito @ 2023-06-30 15:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Unix Heritage Society Speaking of the Jerq... Is there a definitive history anywhere of the progression from Jerq up through the AT&T 730MTG? When I wrote my DMD5620 emulator I tried to find a complete history, but wasn't able to. I just found various (possibly apocryphal) bits and pieces here and there about AT&T objecting to various names until "DMD" was settled on by marketing at some point, and forcing the use of a WE32K in the 5620 for make-corporate-happy reasons. -Seth -- Seth Morabito * Poulsbo, WA * https://loomcom.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Jerq menuhit/mhit 2023-06-30 15:28 ` Seth Morabito @ 2023-06-30 22:14 ` Rob Pike 2023-07-02 7:10 ` arnold 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Rob Pike @ 2023-06-30 22:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Seth Morabito; +Cc: The Unix Heritage Society [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3977 bytes --] The original name was Jerq, which was first the name given by friends at Lucasfilm to the Three Rivers PERQ workstations they had, for which the Pascal-written software and operating system were unsatisfactory. Bart Locanthi and I (with Greg Chesson and Dave Ditzel?) visited Lucasfilm in 1981 and we saw all the potential there with none of the realization. My personal aha was that, as on the Alto, only one thing could be running at a time and that was a profound limitation. When we began to design our answer to these problems a few weeks later, we called Lucasfilm to ask if they minded us borrowing their excellent rude name, and they readily agreed. Our slogan: A jerq at every desk. This was cool, we had good shirts, and Bart even made license plates that read JERQ. But when the thing started to get interesting, Sam Morgan, 127's director, got very nervous. He didn't want to talk to his colleagues about how good our jerqs were. So he proposed "RX" (research experimental) and Bart and I immediately huddled down and came up with blit, from bitblt, and that was accepted. So it was Sam who forced the issue. A shame really, but BTL management wasn't famous for its sense of humor. This is all with the 68000 original, which had been hand-built by us using wire wrap and then in larger but still modest numbers by a company on Long Island whose name was Northern Atlantic if I remember right. Wing Moy did most of the work there. Teletype came and measured and analyzed and proposed building some with metal cases and more mass producible board technology, and that became what people around the company, and later elsewhere, called the Blit. The DMD-5620 was the WE32000 version, which resulted from a decision by Scanlon to ram up WE32000 production by selling this product with the chip in it, at a loss because the chip alone cost something like $2000, compared to something like $25 for the 68000. Also, the WE32000 was far less suitable a chip, being buggy and also slower at the specific tasks like bit shifting that you needed for fast graphics. I still have the license plate. Here's a picture I made today. [image: IMG_4673.jpg] For those perhaps too young to understand what a revolution the merging of graphics and multitasking was back then, some testimonials from the time: From dmr Tue Apr 7 02:01 EST 1981 remote from research Don't lose interest in the jerq terminal stuff, no matter what momentary problems you have with the device or the system. I think the approach and the progress so far are very exciting. From wild!scj Sun Nov 21 09:52 EST 1982 Well, after an afternoon with the bilt, seeing asteroids, crabs, maxwell, etc. etc, I asked Sarah what she liked best. "I liked mpx best" "What did you like about it?" "I liked making all the different boxes, and making all the different things happen in them, and making them go away." I think "universal appeal" is not too strong a term... From alice!vax135!tbl Sat May 14 12:07:42 1983 To: alice!rob Subject: you've spoiled me I can't believe it. I'm sitting here at home in front of my 2621, and I can't work. Damn it. I've got to get a blit at home. [Turner and I are really pleased with the software. Good job!] -rob On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 1:35 AM Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote: > Speaking of the Jerq... > > Is there a definitive history anywhere of the progression from Jerq up > through the AT&T 730MTG? When I wrote my DMD5620 emulator I tried to find a > complete history, but wasn't able to. I just found various (possibly > apocryphal) bits and pieces here and there about AT&T objecting to various > names until "DMD" was settled on by marketing at some point, and forcing > the use of a WE32K in the 5620 for make-corporate-happy reasons. > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito * Poulsbo, WA * https://loomcom.com/ > [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 15415 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: IMG_4673.jpg --] [-- Type: image/jpeg, Size: 240604 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Jerq menuhit/mhit 2023-06-30 22:14 ` Rob Pike @ 2023-07-02 7:10 ` arnold 2023-07-02 14:13 ` Dave Brown 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: arnold @ 2023-07-02 7:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: web, robpike; +Cc: tuhs I had a DMD 5620 for a few (too short) years at Georgia Tech; AT&T gifted a number of them as well as two 3B20s to us. We used the DMDs on a vax running 4.2 BSD. They were heavy suckers! I think close to 50 pounds! It was wonderful to use. Extremely productive as compared to a regular terminal with just one session. Unfortunately, there were enough of the things in use that it drove the poor vax to its knees. Nonetheless, I have fond memories of it to this day. Arnold Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote: > The original name was Jerq, which was first the name given by friends at > Lucasfilm to the Three Rivers PERQ workstations they had, for which the > Pascal-written software and operating system were unsatisfactory. Bart > Locanthi and I (with Greg Chesson and Dave Ditzel?) visited Lucasfilm in > 1981 and we saw all the potential there with none of the realization. My > personal aha was that, as on the Alto, only one thing could be running at a > time and that was a profound limitation. When we began to design our answer > to these problems a few weeks later, we called Lucasfilm to ask if they > minded us borrowing their excellent rude name, and they readily agreed. > > Our slogan: A jerq at every desk. > > This was cool, we had good shirts, and Bart even made license plates that > read JERQ. But when the thing started to get interesting, Sam Morgan, 127's > director, got very nervous. He didn't want to talk to his colleagues about > how good our jerqs were. So he proposed "RX" (research experimental) and > Bart and I immediately huddled down and came up with blit, from bitblt, and > that was accepted. So it was Sam who forced the issue. A shame really, but > BTL management wasn't famous for its sense of humor. > > This is all with the 68000 original, which had been hand-built by us using > wire wrap and then in larger but still modest numbers by a company on Long > Island whose name was Northern Atlantic if I remember right. Wing Moy did > most of the work there. > > Teletype came and measured and analyzed and proposed building some with > metal cases and more mass producible board technology, and that became what > people around the company, and later elsewhere, called the Blit. > > The DMD-5620 was the WE32000 version, which resulted from a decision by > Scanlon to ram up WE32000 production by selling this product with the chip > in it, at a loss because the chip alone cost something like $2000, compared > to something like $25 for the 68000. Also, the WE32000 was far less > suitable a chip, being buggy and also slower at the specific tasks like bit > shifting that you needed for fast graphics. > > I still have the license plate. Here's a picture I made today. > > [image: IMG_4673.jpg] > > For those perhaps too young to understand what a revolution the merging of > graphics and multitasking was back then, some testimonials from the time: > > From dmr Tue Apr 7 02:01 EST 1981 remote from research > > > Don't lose interest in the jerq terminal stuff, no matter what > > momentary problems you have with the device or the system. > > I think the approach and the progress so far are very exciting. > > > > From wild!scj Sun Nov 21 09:52 EST 1982 > > Well, after an afternoon with the bilt, seeing asteroids, crabs, maxwell, > > etc. etc, I asked Sarah what she liked best. > > > "I liked mpx best" > > > "What did you like about it?" > > > "I liked making all the different boxes, and making all the different things > > happen in them, and making them go away." > > > I think "universal appeal" is not too strong a term... > > > > From alice!vax135!tbl Sat May 14 12:07:42 1983 > > To: alice!rob > > Subject: you've spoiled me > > > I can't believe it. I'm sitting here at home in front of my > > 2621, and I can't work. > > > Damn it. I've got to get a blit at home. > > [Turner and I are really pleased with the software. Good job!] > > > > -rob > > > On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 1:35 AM Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote: > > > Speaking of the Jerq... > > > > Is there a definitive history anywhere of the progression from Jerq up > > through the AT&T 730MTG? When I wrote my DMD5620 emulator I tried to find a > > complete history, but wasn't able to. I just found various (possibly > > apocryphal) bits and pieces here and there about AT&T objecting to various > > names until "DMD" was settled on by marketing at some point, and forcing > > the use of a WE32K in the 5620 for make-corporate-happy reasons. > > > > -Seth > > -- > > Seth Morabito * Poulsbo, WA * https://loomcom.com/ > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Jerq menuhit/mhit 2023-07-02 7:10 ` arnold @ 2023-07-02 14:13 ` Dave Brown 2023-07-02 14:27 ` arnold 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Dave Brown @ 2023-07-02 14:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: arnold, tuhs Was there a connection between MGR and Blit? Just from a programming standpoint there is similarities in that they both transport agnostic; using escape sequences for graphical/UI functions. I know MGR code does little more than provide a bitblit interface and it’s upto whoever ports it to implement the interface to the hardware. I took the MGR code, and extended the distribution for the Atari ST (added new demos, fonts and libraries); many years ago. Might be worth porting it to SDL for a giggle. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 2, 2023, at 3:11 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: > I had a DMD 5620 for a few (too short) years at Georgia Tech; AT&T > gifted a number of them as well as two 3B20s to us. We used the DMDs > on a vax running 4.2 BSD. They were heavy suckers! I think close to > 50 pounds! > > It was wonderful to use. Extremely productive as compared to a regular > terminal with just one session. > > Unfortunately, there were enough of the things in use that it drove > the poor vax to its knees. > > Nonetheless, I have fond memories of it to this day. > > Arnold > > Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote: > >> The original name was Jerq, which was first the name given by friends at >> Lucasfilm to the Three Rivers PERQ workstations they had, for which the >> Pascal-written software and operating system were unsatisfactory. Bart >> Locanthi and I (with Greg Chesson and Dave Ditzel?) visited Lucasfilm in >> 1981 and we saw all the potential there with none of the realization. My >> personal aha was that, as on the Alto, only one thing could be running at a >> time and that was a profound limitation. When we began to design our answer >> to these problems a few weeks later, we called Lucasfilm to ask if they >> minded us borrowing their excellent rude name, and they readily agreed. >> >> Our slogan: A jerq at every desk. >> >> This was cool, we had good shirts, and Bart even made license plates that >> read JERQ. But when the thing started to get interesting, Sam Morgan, 127's >> director, got very nervous. He didn't want to talk to his colleagues about >> how good our jerqs were. So he proposed "RX" (research experimental) and >> Bart and I immediately huddled down and came up with blit, from bitblt, and >> that was accepted. So it was Sam who forced the issue. A shame really, but >> BTL management wasn't famous for its sense of humor. >> >> This is all with the 68000 original, which had been hand-built by us using >> wire wrap and then in larger but still modest numbers by a company on Long >> Island whose name was Northern Atlantic if I remember right. Wing Moy did >> most of the work there. >> >> Teletype came and measured and analyzed and proposed building some with >> metal cases and more mass producible board technology, and that became what >> people around the company, and later elsewhere, called the Blit. >> >> The DMD-5620 was the WE32000 version, which resulted from a decision by >> Scanlon to ram up WE32000 production by selling this product with the chip >> in it, at a loss because the chip alone cost something like $2000, compared >> to something like $25 for the 68000. Also, the WE32000 was far less >> suitable a chip, being buggy and also slower at the specific tasks like bit >> shifting that you needed for fast graphics. >> >> I still have the license plate. Here's a picture I made today. >> >> [image: IMG_4673.jpg] >> >> For those perhaps too young to understand what a revolution the merging of >> graphics and multitasking was back then, some testimonials from the time: >> >> From dmr Tue Apr 7 02:01 EST 1981 remote from research >> >> >> Don't lose interest in the jerq terminal stuff, no matter what >> >> momentary problems you have with the device or the system. >> >> I think the approach and the progress so far are very exciting. >> >> >> >> From wild!scj Sun Nov 21 09:52 EST 1982 >> >> Well, after an afternoon with the bilt, seeing asteroids, crabs, maxwell, >> >> etc. etc, I asked Sarah what she liked best. >> >> >> "I liked mpx best" >> >> >> "What did you like about it?" >> >> >> "I liked making all the different boxes, and making all the different things >> >> happen in them, and making them go away." >> >> >> I think "universal appeal" is not too strong a term... >> >> >> >> From alice!vax135!tbl Sat May 14 12:07:42 1983 >> >> To: alice!rob >> >> Subject: you've spoiled me >> >> >> I can't believe it. I'm sitting here at home in front of my >> >> 2621, and I can't work. >> >> >> Damn it. I've got to get a blit at home. >> >> [Turner and I are really pleased with the software. Good job!] >> >> >> >> -rob >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 1:35 AM Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote: >> >>> Speaking of the Jerq... >>> Is there a definitive history anywhere of the progression from Jerq up >>> through the AT&T 730MTG? When I wrote my DMD5620 emulator I tried to find a >>> complete history, but wasn't able to. I just found various (possibly >>> apocryphal) bits and pieces here and there about AT&T objecting to various >>> names until "DMD" was settled on by marketing at some point, and forcing >>> the use of a WE32K in the 5620 for make-corporate-happy reasons. >>> -Seth >>> -- >>> Seth Morabito * Poulsbo, WA * https://loomcom.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Jerq menuhit/mhit 2023-07-02 14:13 ` Dave Brown @ 2023-07-02 14:27 ` arnold 0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: arnold @ 2023-07-02 14:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs, dave, arnold Good question. MGR was somewhat later. It was done by a guy at BellCore if I remember correctly. I used it some on a small sparcstation. On that hardware it was super fast, whereas X11 was much slower. This would have been in early-to-mid 90s. Arnold Dave Brown <dave@bagpuss.nu> wrote: > Was there a connection between MGR and Blit? Just from a programming > standpoint there is similarities in that they both transport agnostic; > using escape sequences for graphical/UI functions. I know MGR code does > little more than provide a bitblit interface and it’s upto whoever > ports it to implement the interface to the hardware. > > I took the MGR code, and extended the distribution for the Atari ST > (added new demos, fonts and libraries); many years ago. > > Might be worth porting it to SDL for a giggle. > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 2, 2023, at 3:11 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: > > I had a DMD 5620 for a few (too short) years at Georgia Tech; AT&T > > gifted a number of them as well as two 3B20s to us. We used the DMDs > > on a vax running 4.2 BSD. They were heavy suckers! I think close to > > 50 pounds! > > > > It was wonderful to use. Extremely productive as compared to a regular > > terminal with just one session. > > > > Unfortunately, there were enough of the things in use that it drove > > the poor vax to its knees. > > > > Nonetheless, I have fond memories of it to this day. > > > > Arnold > > > > Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> The original name was Jerq, which was first the name given by friends at > >> Lucasfilm to the Three Rivers PERQ workstations they had, for which the > >> Pascal-written software and operating system were unsatisfactory. Bart > >> Locanthi and I (with Greg Chesson and Dave Ditzel?) visited Lucasfilm in > >> 1981 and we saw all the potential there with none of the realization. My > >> personal aha was that, as on the Alto, only one thing could be running at a > >> time and that was a profound limitation. When we began to design our answer > >> to these problems a few weeks later, we called Lucasfilm to ask if they > >> minded us borrowing their excellent rude name, and they readily agreed. > >> > >> Our slogan: A jerq at every desk. > >> > >> This was cool, we had good shirts, and Bart even made license plates that > >> read JERQ. But when the thing started to get interesting, Sam Morgan, 127's > >> director, got very nervous. He didn't want to talk to his colleagues about > >> how good our jerqs were. So he proposed "RX" (research experimental) and > >> Bart and I immediately huddled down and came up with blit, from bitblt, and > >> that was accepted. So it was Sam who forced the issue. A shame really, but > >> BTL management wasn't famous for its sense of humor. > >> > >> This is all with the 68000 original, which had been hand-built by us using > >> wire wrap and then in larger but still modest numbers by a company on Long > >> Island whose name was Northern Atlantic if I remember right. Wing Moy did > >> most of the work there. > >> > >> Teletype came and measured and analyzed and proposed building some with > >> metal cases and more mass producible board technology, and that became what > >> people around the company, and later elsewhere, called the Blit. > >> > >> The DMD-5620 was the WE32000 version, which resulted from a decision by > >> Scanlon to ram up WE32000 production by selling this product with the chip > >> in it, at a loss because the chip alone cost something like $2000, compared > >> to something like $25 for the 68000. Also, the WE32000 was far less > >> suitable a chip, being buggy and also slower at the specific tasks like bit > >> shifting that you needed for fast graphics. > >> > >> I still have the license plate. Here's a picture I made today. > >> > >> [image: IMG_4673.jpg] > >> > >> For those perhaps too young to understand what a revolution the merging of > >> graphics and multitasking was back then, some testimonials from the time: > >> > >> From dmr Tue Apr 7 02:01 EST 1981 remote from research > >> > >> > >> Don't lose interest in the jerq terminal stuff, no matter what > >> > >> momentary problems you have with the device or the system. > >> > >> I think the approach and the progress so far are very exciting. > >> > >> > >> > >> From wild!scj Sun Nov 21 09:52 EST 1982 > >> > >> Well, after an afternoon with the bilt, seeing asteroids, crabs, maxwell, > >> > >> etc. etc, I asked Sarah what she liked best. > >> > >> > >> "I liked mpx best" > >> > >> > >> "What did you like about it?" > >> > >> > >> "I liked making all the different boxes, and making all the different things > >> > >> happen in them, and making them go away." > >> > >> > >> I think "universal appeal" is not too strong a term... > >> > >> > >> > >> From alice!vax135!tbl Sat May 14 12:07:42 1983 > >> > >> To: alice!rob > >> > >> Subject: you've spoiled me > >> > >> > >> I can't believe it. I'm sitting here at home in front of my > >> > >> 2621, and I can't work. > >> > >> > >> Damn it. I've got to get a blit at home. > >> > >> [Turner and I are really pleased with the software. Good job!] > >> > >> > >> > >> -rob > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 1:35 AM Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Speaking of the Jerq... > >>> Is there a definitive history anywhere of the progression from Jerq up > >>> through the AT&T 730MTG? When I wrote my DMD5620 emulator I tried to find a > >>> complete history, but wasn't able to. I just found various (possibly > >>> apocryphal) bits and pieces here and there about AT&T objecting to various > >>> names until "DMD" was settled on by marketing at some point, and forcing > >>> the use of a WE32K in the 5620 for make-corporate-happy reasons. > >>> -Seth > >>> -- > >>> Seth Morabito * Poulsbo, WA * https://loomcom.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2023-07-02 14:27 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2023-06-29 22:15 [TUHS] Jerq menuhit/mhit Noel Hunt 2023-06-29 22:22 ` [TUHS] " Andrew Hume 2023-06-30 15:28 ` Seth Morabito 2023-06-30 22:14 ` Rob Pike 2023-07-02 7:10 ` arnold 2023-07-02 14:13 ` Dave Brown 2023-07-02 14:27 ` arnold
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