From: Ray Andrews <rayandrews@eastlink.ca>
To: zsh-users@zsh.org
Subject: Re: why is eval needed?
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2022 08:27:01 -0800 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <c717fdc0-7661-3387-d0c8-3aff56d7f6c7@eastlink.ca> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20221120150848.74di3mpjwnfcul34@chazelas.org>
On 2022-11-20 07:08, Stephane Chazelas wrote:
> zsh doesn't impose anything. "-L 2" is a string made of 4
> characters in any shell or programming language. There's no
> programming language where "-L 2" means 2 strings -L and 2.
But that's the thing, I'd naively thought the variable could be inserted
in the command string and be 'just' a string of characters, but zsh
imposes that 'tree' must see '-L 2' as a single entity, yes? As shown,
we need word splitting to solve the problem and show tree what it wants
to see. Or, as I was speculating, some way of just flattening the string
back to nothing more than a string of characters -- but then again,
probably tree wouldn't like that either, perhaps the string is always
'packaged' into words? If so, then there's no avoiding that we must
word-split '-L 2' into two words and there's nothing to wish for.
> That is a very weird feature from a language design point of
> view. Anybody who doesn't know what the shells looked like
> before the Bourne shell would think Stephen Bourne was out of
> his mind.
>
It's what happens when functionality expands by accretion -- simple
structures no longer suffice but they are tweaked rather than
rethought. It's like the difference between the layout of Paris vs.
London.
> My understanding is that the Bourne shell's bizarre IFS handling
> and the fact that globbing was performed upon parameter
> expansion was an attempt to keep some level of backward
> compatibility with that Thompson shell. You see similar things
> hapenning in csh from the same era.
The dilemma of compatibility! No easy answers. I myself tend towards a
'garage to the dump' mentality but it's not that simple.
> The Korn shell (from the early 80s) kept most of that with the
> exception that it only did IFS-splitting upon expansions, not on
> literal text.
Holy cow! IFS splitting in text??
> The fact that in sh/ksh/bash:
>
> arg='-L 1'
> tree $arg
>
> Calls tree with "-L" and "1" as arguments is not that bash
> doesn't do some sort of magic "grouping" that zsh would be
> doing, but that ksh/bash contrary to zsh does that extra layer
> of $IFS-splitting from the Bourne shell on top of the syntax
> parsing as the default value of $IFS happens to contain the
> space character.
Ah! So my little issue is a zsh exclusive? Not complaining tho, I
don't like zsh doing things I didn't ask it to do so if in this case I
need to request a word split that's just fine. After all it's tree
that's being difficult so the problem is rare and easily solved.
> That's why in sh/bash/ksh you almost always need to quote
> parameter expansions if you intend to pass the contents of a
> variable as an argument to a command.
>
> See
> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/171346/security-implications-of-forgetting-to-quote-a-variable-in-bash-posix-shells
> for the kind of thing that can happen if you forget.
Heavy. That's the closest I've come to understanding those vulnerabilities.
>
> If you want to assemble a string, and that string to be
> evaluated as shell code, that's what eval is for. eval evaluate
> code written in the shell language. That's a way to dynamically
> invoke the language interpreter.
Ok, so I understood that correctly. At least partially.
> What are you doing there? I have no 'nm' command here. No such command in
> Debian repository.
> nm is a standard development command (though not -D which AFAIK
> is a GNU extension). Part of GNU binutils on GNU systems.
Ah, that's why I can't find it. It's hard to find commands so packaged.
> Note that tree is not part of the GNU project, it's just a
> utility written by some guy and shared to the world. There is
> *some* level of consistency among utilities in the GNU
> toolchest. There is even such a thing as published GNU coding standards.
> See for instance
> https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Command_002dLine-Interfaces.html#Command_002dLine-Interfaces
Yeah, tides of organization wash here and there. No overall commander
tho, so a bit of chaos is unavoidable.
> I'll agree with you that the lack of consistency in API between the
> different tools that are available out there can be annoying
> (nothing to do with GNU or Linux)
You know, half of it is just cultural adaptation. When I first started
with Linux the first thing I did was decide between zsh and bash and I'm
basically assuming that Linux will be like DOS but slightly more
powerful and zsh will be like C and that all Linux OS apps will be as
flawless as WordPerfect 5.1. CRASH! Now that I'm used to being in a
bazaar not a monastery it's easier to get around. One does get mud on
one's shoes.
> eval evaluates shell code. I struggle to understand what you
> don't understand. Maybe you're thinking too much or too little
> of what a "command line string" is. A "command line string"
> like:
I think at this level of my education it's enough to say that eval looks
at it's arguments as if they were typed on the command line. I haven't
really 'understood' anything, I use eval ad hoc when it seems to solve
problems. Using it with real understanding is a future goal.
> For that string to be passed as code to the shell language
> interpreter for it to interpret.
Right, I get that:
2 /aWorking/Zsh/Source/Wk 0 $ var="echo howdy"
2 /aWorking/Zsh/Source/Wk 0 $ eval $var
howdy
> Again, tree has nothing to do with the GNU project.
I dunno, I get it all from Debian and Debian is a GNU/Linux OS so I
don't know more than that.
Thanks for a most educational post! I love these history lessons, they
inform my entire outlook. You can't understand where you are unless you
understand where you've been.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-11-20 16:27 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 18+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2022-11-19 14:34 Ray Andrews
2022-11-19 14:43 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2022-11-19 17:02 ` Ray Andrews
2022-11-19 17:10 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2022-11-19 18:02 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-11-19 18:18 ` Roman Perepelitsa
2022-11-19 16:48 ` Stephane Chazelas
2022-11-19 19:12 ` Ray Andrews
2022-11-19 19:50 ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-11-19 22:21 ` Ray Andrews
2022-11-20 8:55 ` Stephane Chazelas
2022-11-20 13:47 ` Ray Andrews
2022-11-20 15:08 ` Stephane Chazelas
2022-11-20 16:27 ` Ray Andrews [this message]
2022-11-20 20:16 ` Stephane Chazelas
2022-11-20 22:31 ` Bart Schaefer
2022-11-21 2:13 ` Ray Andrews
2022-11-20 22:47 ` Ray Andrews
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