[9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[dusan3sic]

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Does plan9 have multi-core support? If it does, how does it manage it (what files/man pages/docs do I read). If it doesn't have, how would I implement it. 
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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[ori]

Quoth dusan3sic@gmail.com:
> Does plan9 have multi-core support? If it does, how does it manage it (what files/man pages/docs do I read). If it doesn't have, how would I implement it. 

read: https://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/9
and once again, read: https://www.mikeash.com/getting_answers.html

(hint: multiprocessor means the same thing as multicore)

> If it doesn't have, how would I implement it. 

it already has it, but if it didn't -- were incapable of finding out
if we have multicore support, what makes you would be able to implement it?


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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[Rob Pike]

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A big reason for doing Plan 9, as the linked article says right up top, was
supporting multi{core|processor} machines. And that took some research
because there really hadn't been that many around to write OSes for before
then. Some novel work resulted, work that still has relevance.

-rob


On Sun, Aug 27, 2023 at 8:41 AM <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote:

> Quoth dusan3sic@gmail.com:
> > Does plan9 have multi-core support? If it does, how does it manage it
> (what files/man pages/docs do I read). If it doesn't have, how would I
> implement it.
>
> read: https://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/9
> and once again, read: https://www.mikeash.com/getting_answers.html
>
> (hint: multiprocessor means the same thing as multicore)
>
> > If it doesn't have, how would I implement it.
> 
> it already has it, but if it didn't -- were incapable of finding out
> if we have multicore support, what makes you would be able to implement it?
> 

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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[Bakul Shah]

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In addition to the papers Ori pointed out, you may wish to read Francisco J Ballesteros' Notes on the Plan9 3rd edition kernel:
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.75.5409

I don't know how obsolete this is for the current versions of plan9. https://github.com/Plan9-Archive/plan9-3e
supposedly has the version described in the above notes but I haven't verified. 

> On Aug 26, 2023, at 12:33 PM, dusan3sic@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Does plan9 have multi-core support? If it does, how does it manage it (what files/man pages/docs do I read). If it doesn't have, how would I implement it. 
> 9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest> / 9fans / see discussions <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription>Permalink <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T912e4838cb1a371f-M00dd91d9c0733c0d2840554b>

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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[Don Bailey]

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Rob - would you be willing to tell us what the novel work is (and more
about it) that still has relevance today? I'm sure I'm not the only one on
the list that would love to learn more about that history.

Best,
D


On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 7:54 PM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> A big reason for doing Plan 9, as the linked article says right up top,
> was supporting multi{core|processor} machines. And that took some research
> because there really hadn't been that many around to write OSes for before
> then. Some novel work resulted, work that still has relevance.
>
> -rob
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 27, 2023 at 8:41 AM <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote:
>
>> Quoth dusan3sic@gmail.com:
>> > Does plan9 have multi-core support? If it does, how does it manage it
>> (what files/man pages/docs do I read). If it doesn't have, how would I
>> implement it.
>>
>> read: https://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/9
>> and once again, read: https://www.mikeash.com/getting_answers.html
>>
>> (hint: multiprocessor means the same thing as multicore)
>>
>> > If it doesn't have, how would I implement it.
>> 
>> it already has it, but if it didn't -- were incapable of finding out
>> if we have multicore support, what makes you would be able to implement
>> it?
>> 
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T912e4838cb1a371f-M0a5984a2228bdd4fb5b8e1f2>
>

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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[mkf]

I assume you are using a mail client, click on "reply" button if so.

On Sun, 27 Aug 2023 05:50:22 -0400
dusan3sic@gmail.com wrote:

> Btw, how do I reply to someone like you are doing? Copying and quoting manually seems weird.

-
mkf

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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[dusan3sic]

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I finally read the article about asking questions, sorry if i was being rude or was waisting your time, wasn't my intention. 

And about the multi-core support, well I kinda moved away from it since I don't really need it, I was just wondering if i can disable it in an easy way for the measurement I am doing
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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[dusan3sic]

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Btw, how do I reply to someone like you are doing? Copying and quoting manually seems weird.
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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[dusan3sic]

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I am using it in a browser 
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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[Michael Grunditz]

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Den sön 27 aug. 2023 12:57 <dusan3sic@gmail.com> skrev:

> I am using it
>

There are little dots above the email text. Click on the dots and reply
beneath.

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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[Dan Cross]

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On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 9:28 PM Don Bailey <don.bailey@gmail.com> wrote:

> Rob - would you be willing to tell us what the novel work is (and more
> about it) that still has relevance today? I'm sure I'm not the only one on
> the list that would love to learn more about that history.
>

I wouldn’t try to speak for Rob, but I imagine that this would include at
least the rendezvous work (cf the “Multiprocessor Sleep and Wakeup” paper)
and possibly channel-based CSP-style concurrency inside the kernel.

Hopefully Rob will share this with his thoughts here; I’m interested as
well.

        - Dan C.

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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[ori]

Quoth dusan3sic@gmail.com:
> I finally read the article about asking questions, sorry if i was being rude or was waisting your time, wasn't my intention. 

people wrote documentation for a reason; sometimes the documentation is
confusing, insufficient, or you didn't know the right keyword to look up
so you could help yourself; that's ok.

but you need to at least try, and give enough information on how you tried
so that you can be pointed in the right direction.
 
> And about the multi-core support, well I kinda moved away from it since I don't really need it, I was just wondering if i can disable it in an easy way for the measurement I am doing

yes; from the plan9.ini manpage, where most boot options are documented:

        *nomp=
          A multiprocessor machine will enable all processors by
          default.  Setting *nomp restricts the kernel to starting
          only one processor and using the traditional interrupt con-
          troller.

Editing 9fat should be covered in the FQA, in section 7.2:

        https://fqa.9front.org/fqa7.html

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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[G B via 9fans]

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 Windows and Linux began on single-core single processor machines. Multiprocessor had been around for some time--IBM's System 360 began using multi-processors in 1968--but not for x86. Plan 9 first edition came out in 1992, at a time when multicore didn't exist, and multicore was released with IBM's Power 4 in 2001. 
I can see why someone would ask if Plan 9 supports multicore. Plan 9 3rd edition was released in 2000 and 4th edition was released in 2002. In each case, going from single core-single processor to multiprocessor and then from multiprocessor to multicore would require changes in the operating system to recognize the extra processors and then the cores.
    On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 04:50:50 PM CDT, <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote:  
 
 Quoth dusan3sic@gmail.com:
> I finally read the article about asking questions, sorry if i was being rude or was waisting your time, wasn't my intention. 

people wrote documentation for a reason; sometimes the documentation is
confusing, insufficient, or you didn't know the right keyword to look up
so you could help yourself; that's ok.

but you need to at least try, and give enough information on how you tried
so that you can be pointed in the right direction.
 
> And about the multi-core support, well I kinda moved away from it since I don't really need it, I was just wondering if i can disable it in an easy way for the measurement I am doing

yes; from the plan9.ini manpage, where most boot options are documented:

        *nomp=
          A multiprocessor machine will enable all processors by
          default.  Setting *nomp restricts the kernel to starting
          only one processor and using the traditional interrupt con-
          troller.

Editing 9fat should be covered in the FQA, in section 7.2:

        https://fqa.9front.org/fqa7.html
  
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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[Steve Simon]

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> Plan 9 first edition came out in 1992, at a time when multicore didn't exist, and multicore was released with IBM's Power 4 in 2001. 

possibly true but multi-cpu boxes where becoming quite popular in the late 1980s and these have very similar kernel design challenges to multicore architectures.

one of the 1st edition’s target hosts where sgi numa machines (challenge 2s i think)

what i am saying is the plan9 kernel supported multiple processors from the very early days.

i wonder if the lost vax kernel supported multiple cpu's (or maybe is was kenfs only?).

Steve


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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[mkf]

There was an VAX kernel?
where can i find more information about it?

On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 16:25:59 +0100
Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:

> i wonder if the lost vax kernel supported multiple cpu's


-
mkf

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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[Kurt H Maier via 9fans]

On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 12:32:55PM +0000, G B via 9fans wrote:
>  Windows and Linux began on single-core single processor machines. Multiprocessor had been around for some time--IBM's System 360 began using multi-processors in 1968--but not for x86. Plan 9 first edition came out in 1992, at a time when multicore didn't exist, and multicore was released with IBM's Power 4 in 2001. 
> I can see why someone would ask if Plan 9 supports multicore. Plan 9 3rd edition was released in 2000 and 4th edition was released in 2002. In each case, going from single core-single processor to multiprocessor and then from multiprocessor to multicore would require changes in the operating system to recognize the extra processors and then the cores.

Symmetric multiprocessing was available in 1992, even on x86
machines.  Multics, tops-10, and various unixes all supported it by then.
Once you have shared-memory SMP there's little difference between
multiprocessor and multicore.  Plan 9's implementation is imo cleaner
than most of what came before, but by 1992 there was a lot of
multiprocessing going on in the world.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[Steve Simon]

there was a vax compiler and i think a vax kenfs implementation, i don’t know if there was a vax cpu/auth kernel. quite possibly not.

currently i can only find my own post on tuhs confirming the vax was a dead end. but i am sure jmk told me he found a vax compiler binary in the labs dump.

i think vaxes where becoming rather passé by the time plan9 was born.

-Steve


> On 28 Aug 2023, at 7:21 pm, Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 12:32:55PM +0000, G B via 9fans wrote:
>> Windows and Linux began on single-core single processor machines. Multiprocessor had been around for some time--IBM's System 360 began using multi-processors in 1968--but not for x86. Plan 9 first edition came out in 1992, at a time when multicore didn't exist, and multicore was released with IBM's Power 4 in 2001. 
>> I can see why someone would ask if Plan 9 supports multicore. Plan 9 3rd edition was released in 2000 and 4th edition was released in 2002. In each case, going from single core-single processor to multiprocessor and then from multiprocessor to multicore would require changes in the operating system to recognize the extra processors and then the cores.
> 
> Symmetric multiprocessing was available in 1992, even on x86
> machines.  Multics, tops-10, and various unixes all supported it by then.
> Once you have shared-memory SMP there's little difference between
> multiprocessor and multicore.  Plan 9's implementation is imo cleaner
> than most of what came before, but by 1992 there was a lot of
> multiprocessing going on in the world.
> 
> khm

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Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support

[Rob Pike]

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The dual VAX was the first machine we tried to make work, but for various
reasons including the machine's peculiarities and our own embryonic
knowledge, we abandoned it. The first working Plan 9 kernel was for a 4-CPU
(one MIPS chip per board) IRIS machine, with custom locking hardware (on
another board) because the MIPS 2000 had no synchronization instructions.
That was started in early 1989.

If there is any evidence of the VAX attempt around, I would disavow it.

-rob


On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 4:22 PM Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:

>
> there was a vax compiler and i think a vax kenfs implementation, i don’t
> know if there was a vax cpu/auth kernel. quite possibly not.
>
> currently i can only find my own post on tuhs confirming the vax was a
> dead end. but i am sure jmk told me he found a vax compiler binary in the
> labs dump.
>
> i think vaxes where becoming rather passé by the time plan9 was born.
>
> -Steve
>
>
> > On 28 Aug 2023, at 7:21 pm, Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 12:32:55PM +0000, G B via 9fans wrote:
> >> Windows and Linux began on single-core single processor machines.
> Multiprocessor had been around for some time--IBM's System 360 began using
> multi-processors in 1968--but not for x86. Plan 9 first edition came out in
> 1992, at a time when multicore didn't exist, and multicore was released
> with IBM's Power 4 in 2001.
> >> I can see why someone would ask if Plan 9 supports multicore. Plan 9
> 3rd edition was released in 2000 and 4th edition was released in 2002. In
> each case, going from single core-single processor to multiprocessor and
> then from multiprocessor to multicore would require changes in the
> operating system to recognize the extra processors and then the cores.
> >
> > Symmetric multiprocessing was available in 1992, even on x86
> > machines.  Multics, tops-10, and various unixes all supported it by then.
> > Once you have shared-memory SMP there's little difference between
> > multiprocessor and multicore.  Plan 9's implementation is imo cleaner
> > than most of what came before, but by 1992 there was a lot of
> > multiprocessing going on in the world.
> >
> > khm

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