[9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[cse.psu.edu!9fans-bounces+9fans-archive=plan9.bell-labs.com, Andrew Hudson]

I read with some interest the criticisms of my recent Plan 9 article
on osnews. While I appreciate constuctive criticism and factual
corrections (yes, it's Gforce not GeForce, yes there is an emacs) I
think for the most part your criticisms are misguided.

The article was meant as a brief exposure of Plan 9 for people who may
have had little to no exposure to "alternative" operating systems and
as such its point was not to delve deeply into issues. The intent was
more to open a door to concepts that people without a computer science
degree might not have been exposed to.

With regard to David Leimbach's comments about the value of Osnews
being overrated, I have this to say. I pulled all of my materials from
the available Plan 9 web sources. Which by the way are mostly dead
links now. My impression when researching Plan 9 was that the
documentation barely made it out of internal releases. There's
certainly nothing polished about any of the Plan 9 repositories. There
is a lot of contradictory information on some fairly important topics,
like running under virtualization.  If you read through them there are
a vast number of disclaimors. These sorts of issues really don't give
one the impression that Plan 9 is undergoing a resurgence. If anything
it looks like other projects have taken the family jewels and left the
core project on life support.

Many of the Plan 9 web links are dead. The links to LLNL are dead and
it's my impression that LLNL is no longer involved in Plan 9 efforts.
Mail to some of the more visible Plan 9 proponents at LLNL went
un-answered or bounced.

Links to VMWare support for Plan 9 are mostly dead and an archived
post on 9Fans said V4 would never run on it. I couldn't get Plan 9 to
install under the now free Microsoft Virtual PC. Considering that MS
VPC is free, completely skirts most driver compatibility issues, and
could greatly increase Plan 9 trials you would think someone might
publish a FAQ for nubes. But there isn't one.

Here's a real issue that I don't think was ever adequately addressed
in any Plan 9 literature I ran across in my all-to-brief research. How
do you convey the deep concepts of Plan 9 to someone who doesn't have
5+ years of large scale system admin experience, or a Master's degree
in Computer Science? How do you convert the unwashed masses of Linux
users who boot the LiveCD and don't find KDE, Gnome, an IM client, or
Mozilla? The importance of an OS these days isn't about all the magic
in the kernel, it's what the OS can do for the user.  And by the way
you have 15 minutes to provide the new user with an exciting
out-of-box experience before you have lost them. With so many OS
alternatives out there already, people have a low threshhold for a
LiveCD with few user privileges.

Please forgive me if this has already been discussed. For all I know
it could have been a recurring thread since the Plan 9 inception. But
the fact remains that you have an operating system that is dazzling in
brilliance to a small number of really bright people, and no one else
gets it.

So please let me apologize for not completely conveying some of the
important issues such as SecStore and ndb. I worked with the material
at hand, had a limited time to write the article, and provided
references when I could. It was a fun research project. If, however,
other people see the reaction that 9Fans have to earnest contributors,
don't expect a lot more of them.

Kind regards,
Andrew Hudson
Ahudson.inc@gmail.com

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[andrey mirtchovski]

> Many of the Plan 9 web links are dead. The links to LLNL are dead and
> it's my impression that LLNL is no longer involved in Plan 9 efforts.
> Mail to some of the more visible Plan 9 proponents at LLNL went
> un-answered or bounced.

Surely you mean LANL instead of LLNL, right? Whom did you email?

The web site at lanl is gone because the organization that hosted it
got reorganized. There's an archive of that web page (which states
it's for historical purposes mostly) here:

http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/lanlp9/

Perhaps you could've asked here instead of making assumptions who's
involved, where, and how.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[csant]

> The article was meant as a brief exposure of Plan 9 for people who may
> have had little to no exposure to "alternative" operating systems and
> as such its point was not to delve deeply into issues. The intent was
> more to open a door to concepts that people without a computer science
> degree might not have been exposed to.

This is a very noble intention - but, alas, that is not enough, IMHO. On
the contrary... mis-information to those that do not know, is much worse
than no info at all. Those that have not been exposed to Plan 9 previously
might get a very wrong first impression, and what is worse, wrong
expectations.

I myself am very new to Plan 9 - but constant reading helps a lot. And
actually *trying out* stuff, playing with the system. Have you tried to
run emacs? That simple test would have helped not to raise hopes of
misinformed users. And it is very dangerous to start talking about stuff
you do not completely understand: namespaces, in Plan 9, don't have
anything to do with the network database. Yes, namespaces are confusing:
it has been recently mentioned by several, on this list.

I myself am struggeling with understanding how Plan 9 works - and when you
threw ndb in one pot with namespaces, I got even more confused. Your
article mis-informs, and consfuses.

> I pulled all of my materials from
> the available Plan 9 web sources. Which by the way are mostly dead
> links now.

Some private projects might well be dead - but as far as I can tell, the
URLs on the web site and in the wiki work mostly fine. At least, that's
where I collected my info from...

> Considering that MS
> VPC is free, completely skirts most driver compatibility issues, and
> could greatly increase Plan 9 trials you would think someone might
> publish a FAQ for nubes. But there isn't one.

You could start one :) The wiki has a FAQ, and maybe more answers to more
questions could be added there, if you miss some. The more people
contribute to documentation, and divulgation, the better it is for Plan 9.
But documentation and divulgation has to be correct. If you don't
understand something, leave it to somebody else. Or investigate, until you
*do* know something.

> How
> do you convey the deep concepts of Plan 9 to someone who doesn't have
> 5+ years of large scale system admin experience, or a Master's degree
> in Computer Science?

IIANM Francisco Ballesteros is planning an introductory course to Plan 9
at his university and asked the list about which points people do find
most confusing and hardest to understand. Will this material be available?

/c (a n00b's two cents...)

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Federico G. Benavento]

Hola,

> Here's a real issue that I don't think was ever adequately addressed
> in any Plan 9 literature I ran across in my all-to-brief research. How
> do you convey the deep concepts of Plan 9 to someone who doesn't have
> 5+ years of large scale system admin experience, or a Master's degree
> in Computer Science?

anyone can use Plan 9, you just need to be open minded.

--
Federico G. Benavento (a law student who uses Plan 9 every day)

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[David Leimbach]

On 7/23/06, Andrew Hudson <ahudson.inc@gmail.com> wrote:
> I read with some interest the criticisms of my recent Plan 9 article
> on osnews. While I appreciate constuctive criticism and factual
> corrections (yes, it's Gforce not GeForce, yes there is an emacs) I
> think for the most part your criticisms are misguided.
>

Yeah, so you read my posts...

I just get REALLY tired, as I'm sure many people do, when you go to
read something reviewing an OS that you know about, just to see what
the reactions are going to be, and find it full of errors.

I apologize up front for my attitude towards it.  I was wrong, and I
was having a really messed up day to begin with.  Sometimes it's just
better to discard an email than send it.

That said, I'm glad you tried Plan 9, and I'm glad you attempted to
write something worthwhile about it on OSNews.

My behavior aside, it might be better in the future to pop a draft of
what you're intending to post to this group or maybe one or two people
from it who are experts (I'm not an expert btw) and ask them for their
feedback first.

A lot of what's wrong with the image of Plan 9 is that people "just
don't get it".


> With regard to David Leimbach's comments about the value of Osnews
> being overrated,

I think I mentioned all web journalism... I wasn't singling out OSNews per se.

 I have this to say. I pulled all of my materials from
> the available Plan 9 web sources. Which by the way are mostly dead
> links now. My impression when researching Plan 9 was that the
> documentation barely made it out of internal releases. There's
> certainly nothing polished about any of the Plan 9 repositories. There
> is a lot of contradictory information on some fairly important topics,
> like running under virtualization.  If you read through them there are
> a vast number of disclaimors. These sorts of issues really don't give
> one the impression that Plan 9 is undergoing a resurgence. If anything
> it looks like other projects have taken the family jewels and left the
> core project on life support.
>

Well you could have asked questions instead of assuming things.


> Many of the Plan 9 web links are dead. The links to LLNL are dead and
> it's my impression that LLNL is no longer involved in Plan 9 efforts.
> Mail to some of the more visible Plan 9 proponents at LLNL went
> un-answered or bounced.

Do you mean LANL?

>
> Links to VMWare support for Plan 9 are mostly dead and an archived
> post on 9Fans said V4 would never run on it. I couldn't get Plan 9 to
> install under the now free Microsoft Virtual PC. Considering that MS
> VPC is free, completely skirts most driver compatibility issues, and
> could greatly increase Plan 9 trials you would think someone might
> publish a FAQ for nubes. But there isn't one.
>

I thought our Wiki had a link to this stuff.

> Here's a real issue that I don't think was ever adequately addressed
> in any Plan 9 literature I ran across in my all-to-brief research. How
> do you convey the deep concepts of Plan 9 to someone who doesn't have
> 5+ years of large scale system admin experience, or a Master's degree
> in Computer Science? How do you convert the unwashed masses of Linux
> users who boot the LiveCD and don't find KDE, Gnome, an IM client, or
> Mozilla? The importance of an OS these days isn't about all the magic
> in the kernel, it's what the OS can do for the user.  And by the way
> you have 15 minutes to provide the new user with an exciting
> out-of-box experience before you have lost them. With so many OS
> alternatives out there already, people have a low threshhold for a
> LiveCD with few user privileges.
>

Now you've hit the nail on the head I think.  I don't have a Master's
in Computer Science but I think a lot of appreciating plan 9 comes
from understanding what's being abstracted at the interfaces it
provides.  Once you realize you can do things like tunneling
seamlessly by using "sshnet" (as easy to use as any ssh command is)
combined with the ease of u9fs, you can even find that the distributed
namespace will integrate fairly nicely with your existing unix
machines, and good times are had by all (hopefully).

> Please forgive me if this has already been discussed. For all I know
> it could have been a recurring thread since the Plan 9 inception. But
> the fact remains that you have an operating system that is dazzling in
> brilliance to a small number of really bright people, and no one else
> gets it.

Again the hammer falls on target.

>
> So please let me apologize for not completely conveying some of the
> important issues such as SecStore and ndb. I worked with the material
> at hand, had a limited time to write the article, and provided
> references when I could. It was a fun research project. If, however,
> other people see the reaction that 9Fans have to earnest contributors,
> don't expect a lot more of them.
>

Well, as I said, I think your heart was in the right place but without
doing real research and checking your facts, you're not really helping
our situation as much as spreading stuff that will live on in google's
caches about Plan 9 that aren't necessarily true.

Surely you have to see how that can possibly be damaging.

> Kind regards,
> Andrew Hudson
> Ahudson.inc@gmail.com
>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Christoph Lohmann]

Good morning.

Am Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:40:40 -0700 schrieb "David Leimbach"
<leimy2k@gmail.com>:

> I just get REALLY tired, as I'm sure many people do, when you go to
> read something reviewing an OS that you know about, just to see what
> the reactions are going to be, and find it full of errors.

> [...] (I'm not an expert btw) [...]

> A lot of what's wrong with the image of Plan 9 is that people "just
> don't get it".

Where is your article?

Sincerely,

Christoph

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Bruce Ellis]

i read through the slashdot stuff and saw no intelligence,
i liked the slam on scroll. it hasn't changed in 20 years
what's wrong? i can scroll a page or what i want, up or down.
i can click for "take me to absosulte position".

stupid arrows and thumb-flickers will never replace it, nice
slow drop shadows too.

and why is it that it's on the left?  that's where you are typing.

good to see that lunixes hate it.  4 million years they'll get it.

brucee

On 7/24/06, Christoph Lohmann <20h@r-36.net> wrote:
> Good morning.
>
> Am Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:40:40 -0700 schrieb "David Leimbach"
> <leimy2k@gmail.com>:
>
> > I just get REALLY tired, as I'm sure many people do, when you go to
> > read something reviewing an OS that you know about, just to see what
> > the reactions are going to be, and find it full of errors.
>
> > [...] (I'm not an expert btw) [...]
>
> > A lot of what's wrong with the image of Plan 9 is that people "just
> > don't get it".
>
> Where is your article?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Christoph
>

Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[David Leimbach]

On 7/23/06, Christoph Lohmann <20h@r-36.net> wrote:
> Good morning.
>
> Am Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:40:40 -0700 schrieb "David Leimbach"
> <leimy2k@gmail.com>:
>
> > I just get REALLY tired, as I'm sure many people do, when you go to
> > read something reviewing an OS that you know about, just to see what
> > the reactions are going to be, and find it full of errors.
>
> > [...] (I'm not an expert btw) [...]
>
> > A lot of what's wrong with the image of Plan 9 is that people "just
> > don't get it".
>
> Where is your article?
>

I keep my learning experiences over @ http://mordor.tip9ug.jp/who/leimy

I found all the introductory setup material I needed on our wiki, and
from being involved and asking questions either on IRC (some of which
were met with both appropriate and seemingly inappropriate RTFMs at
the time) or on 9fans.

I doubt I could do a better job than some of the papers that already
exist by Ron Minnich or Charles Forsyth on why Plan 9 is relevant.
However as I learned things that weren't obvious I've always been
willing to share that information.

Dave

> Sincerely,
>
> Christoph
>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[John Floren]

On 7/24/06, Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com> wrote:
> i read through the slashdot stuff and saw no intelligence,
> i liked the slam on scroll. it hasn't changed in 20 years
> what's wrong? i can scroll a page or what i want, up or down.
> i can click for "take me to absosulte position".
>
> stupid arrows and thumb-flickers will never replace it, nice
> slow drop shadows too.
>
> and why is it that it's on the left?  that's where you are typing.
>
> good to see that lunixes hate it.  4 million years they'll get it.
>
> brucee
Are you talking about the scroll bars on Plan 9? They seem to me to be
just like scroll bars on a plain old xterm, so I don't see what the
Slashdot morons would be slamming--oh wait, it's Slashdot.

John, Slashdot member (non-paying)
--
TANSTAAFL! (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch!)

Re: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[andrey mirtchovski]

> Are you talking about the scroll bars on Plan 9? They seem to me to be
> just like scroll bars on a plain old xterm, so I don't see what the
> Slashdot morons would be slamming--oh wait, it's Slashdot.

slashdot is also the only place where people would be commenting how
restrictive the Plan 9 license is (sometimes even referring to the
1995 one, not even the 2000 one) while slamming the OS for not being
up-to-date with whatever the current fashions are. yesterday's
discussion was similar to a bunch of lemmings running around screaming
"persistent objects! persistent objects!"... it must be that the 20
year cycle has gotten us back to the days of OO again.

the most insight comes from the anonymous posters, damn cowards :)

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

>
> IIANM Francisco Ballesteros is planning an introductory course to Plan 9
> at his university and asked the list about which points people do find
> most confusing and hardest to understand. Will this material be available?

Sure, just give me some time to finish at least a readable draft. The
one I have now is 160pgs or so. But I think I´ll need like one month more
to get it stable enough for others to read. And it´s for sure that I´ll have
to go over it many times more. But, for what it might be worth, count with
a url for the whole pdf as soon as I get one.

Nemo

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[John Floren]

On 7/25/06, Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org> wrote:
> >
> > IIANM Francisco Ballesteros is planning an introductory course to Plan 9
> > at his university and asked the list about which points people do find
> > most confusing and hardest to understand. Will this material be available?
>
> Sure, just give me some time to finish at least a readable draft. The
> one I have now is 160pgs or so. But I think I´ll need like one month more
> to get it stable enough for others to read. And it´s for sure that I´ll have
> to go over it many times more. But, for what it might be worth, count with
> a url for the whole pdf as soon as I get one.
>
> Nemo
>
Just saying that I'd be glad to read over/look through the preliminary
document and offer my suggestions. I am still quite new to Plan 9, so
I may be of some help in gaining a newbie's perspective. Oh, and if
you need a place to put the PDF, I have essentially unlimited
webspace, so I could put it up for you. There's always a mordor
account, too.

John
-- 
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" -- Shakespeare, Henry VI

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[csant]

>> IIANM Francisco Ballesteros is planning an introductory course to Plan 9
>> at his university and asked the list about which points people do find
>> most confusing and hardest to understand. Will this material be  
>> available?
>
> Sure, just give me some time to finish at least a readable draft. The
> one I have now is 160pgs or so. But I think I´ll need like one month more
> to get it stable enough for others to read. And it´s for sure that I´ll  
> have to go over it many times more. But, for what it might be worth,
> count with a url for the whole pdf as soon as I get one.

Nice, looking forward to it. Thanks :)
/c

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Wes Kussmaul]

erik quanstrom wrote:
> there wasn't any spam.  
Ah yes, that's one thing the immigrants from our commercial online 
services brought with them. Spam. Al Gore may have invented the Net, but 
our users invented spam.
> i don't think the evolution of the net (or computers for that matter) is a story 
> of the good old days and constant regression or the converse.  i think it's a story
> of (slightly?  how pessamistic are you?) more advances than regressions.
>   
I agree, but I'm real pessimistic about the next 5 years.

Then after the fraud and anarchy force the world to institute a 
universal ID-PKI with privacy protection, things will get better.

-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started when the serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” I don’t get the serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a bit obscure. 

                         P.K. Iggy
                         _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
                           (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
                           and the prosperity that followed)

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[erik quanstrom]

not to mention newspapers, magazines &c.  there are advantages
to the net today that have nothing to do with the fact that they
are new.

- erik

On Fri Jul 28 04:48:45 CDT 2006, harriha@mail.student.oulu.fi wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 09:29:04PM -0500, erik quanstrom wrote:
> > i don't think the evolution of the net (or computers for that matter)
> > is a story of the good old days and constant regression or the
> > converse.  i think it's a story of (slightly?  how pessamistic are
> > you?) more advances than regressions.
>
> Depends also on how much you value the new things, I guess. It was
> probably the masses that drew all kinds of companies along and now you
> can contact many places, research products, get manuals and support etc.
> Well.. sometimes you might.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Harri Haataja]

On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 09:29:04PM -0500, erik quanstrom wrote:
> i don't think the evolution of the net (or computers for that matter)
> is a story of the good old days and constant regression or the
> converse.  i think it's a story of (slightly?  how pessamistic are
> you?) more advances than regressions.

Depends also on how much you value the new things, I guess. It was
probably the masses that drew all kinds of companies along and now you
can contact many places, research products, get manuals and support etc.
Well.. sometimes you might.

--
"Cheer up, things could be worse."
So I cheered up, and sure enough, things got worse.
	-- from .sig of Gene Cash

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[erik quanstrom]

while you are right, the net did loose some things when everybody hopped on.
there wasn't any spam.  internet services were unblocked.  &c.

on the other hand, network bandwidth was poor and there was very little
content available.  neither google nor wikipedia would exist without the
unwashed masses.

i don't think the evolution of the net (or computers for that matter) is a story
of the good old days and constant regression or the converse.  i think it's a story
of (slightly?  how pessamistic are you?) more advances than regressions.

- erik

On Thu Jul 27 13:24:54 CDT 2006, wes@village.com wrote:
> Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> >
> > see, the arpanet, ca. 1976, where we all trusted each other. Once the
> > masses came in, it was all over.
> 1. CIX and others provided alternate backbones to NSF, enabling
> commercial traffic
> 2. Delphi (which I founded) saw the resulting opportunity and started
> bringing in the masses
> 3. Delphi was purchased by Rupert Murdoch, who thought the Net was a
> broadcast medium and thus blew it big time
> 4. AOL seized on the resulting vacuum and brought in the masses of masses.
>
> So money transformed the Net from an ivy league faculty club into Real
> Life. Could you envision any other outcome?
>
> Money is one of those things that removes civilization from
> civilization. And money always finds a way in. And yes, I did my part.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Nicolás Victorero Mier]

uriel is a big Plan 9 fan. Hope he'll have the chance to get back.

Greetings
Nico

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Wes Kussmaul]

Ronald G Minnich wrote:
>>> In theory, you do not need authorities because everyone behaves. 
>>> It's called civilisation, I think this world should try that out.
> we did. it failed.
>
> see, the arpanet, ca. 1976, where we all trusted each other. Once the 
> masses came in, it was all over.
1. CIX and others provided alternate backbones to NSF, enabling 
commercial traffic
2. Delphi (which I founded) saw the resulting opportunity and started 
bringing in the masses
3. Delphi was purchased by Rupert Murdoch, who thought the Net was a 
broadcast medium and thus blew it big time
4. AOL seized on the resulting vacuum and brought in the masses of masses.

So money transformed the Net from an ivy league faculty club into Real 
Life. Could you envision any other outcome?

Money is one of those things that removes civilization from 
civilization. And money always finds a way in. And yes, I did my part.

-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started when the serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” I don’t get the serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a bit obscure. 

                         P.K. Iggy
                         _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
                           (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
                           and the prosperity that followed)

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Ronald G Minnich]

Wes Kussmaul wrote:
> Sascha Retzki wrote:
>
>> In theory, you do not need authorities because everyone behaves. It's
>> called civilisation, I think this world should try that out.


we did. it failed.

see, the arpanet, ca. 1976, where we all trusted each other. Once the
masses came in, it was all over.

ron

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Wes Kussmaul]

Sascha Retzki wrote:
> In theory, you do not need authorities because everyone behaves. It's 
> called civilisation, I think this world should try that out.
The world is trying it out. It's alternatively called VeriSign, GeoTrust, Thawte, Comodo, etc.

As Matt Blaze puts it, "A commercial certification authority protects you from anyone whose money they refuse to take."

The problem with the no-authority-needed view of civilization is that it ignores the fact that there is some evil in everyone, and it will tend to prevail if allowed to.

Duly constituted public authority (as contrasted with MyNewCityHall(tm) brand Authority(tm)) is what tells architects and structural engineers and contractors that if they follow their natural instinct to cut corners and, say, a tunnel roof falls on someone, they'll lose their license to practice their profession. 

See quote in my sig below. 

-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started when the serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” I don’t get the serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a bit obscure. 

                         P.K. Iggy
                         _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
                           (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
                           and the prosperity that followed)

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Dan Cross]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 01:33:44PM -0400, Michael Baldwin wrote:
> I feel like responding... oh never mind.  I shall do what I'm told,
> sir!  You are so right: authority needs to put its foot down and not
> stand for any funny business.  Or else.

In general I concur, but I think that, in this case, the business
wasn't funny, it was highly offending someone, that person asked the
offending party to stop, and the offending party refused.

It's not as if Uriel was making references to Star Trek or something
equally unimportant or inane.  If he had been, I'm quite sure the
reaction would have been different.

I suspect Uriel may be permitted to rejoin the list once he learns how
not to be an asshole.  Then again, that may mean he never gets to
resubscribe.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Sascha Retzki]

> Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and apologizing
> is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when
> it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is
> normally a worse crime than what was done.

'Children.. behave!'


In theory, you do not need authorities because everyone behaves. It's called civilisation, I think this world should try that out.

'Heil' is used by austrians, in a friendly manner, btw :P

Uriel has always been special, so is his way of making jokes.

He is always up for a presentation for some Free/Open Source Congress, works on documentation and tries to convince people of his ideas - You know what that is called? Contributing.

We all have one thing in common: We like Plan9. We can try improving situations or ban people, but I don't think you can do both.

Just my 2cents

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>> Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and apologizing
>> is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when
>> it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is
>> normally a worse crime than what was done.

it is sad that he is callous or ignorant enough to liken himself to
the history's most infamous war criminal just to make a joke; but
banning him for his crass joke is a mistake.

i thought it was an over-the-top sarcastic comment.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[ems]

> 'Heil' is used by austrians, in a friendly manner, btw :P
It has nothing to do with heil.
> Uriel has always been special, so is his way of making jokes.
Jokes or not he was told to stop.
> He is always up for a presentation for some Free/Open Source Congress, works on documentation and tries to convince people of his ideas - You know what that is called? Contributing.
There is much more we should thank him for.
> We all have one thing in common: We like Plan9. We can try improving situations or ban people, but I don't think you can do both.
Uriel does many good things and I hope he will in the future be allowed
to rejoin 9fans by behaving.

Anyway there is definitely no point in me discussing it as I have no
influence on uriel or 9fans. Send off those emails to uriel.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Iruatã Souza (muzgo)]

2006/7/25, ems <oat@iinet.net.au>:
> On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 18:56 +0200, Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote:
> > On 7/25/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > > My understanding he got banned for not stopping when asked to stop
> > > mutliple times.
> >
> > Well, he probably needs to learn when a joke is "exhausted" or it is
> > not funny anymore. But he did apologize in the message that got him
> > banned:
> > http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2006-July/048264.html
>
> Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and apologizing
> is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when
> it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is
> normally a worse crime than what was done.
>

you know where to stick your authority, don't you?

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Michael Baldwin]

I feel like responding... oh never mind.  I shall do what I'm told,
sir!  You are so right: authority needs to put its foot down and not
stand for any funny business.  Or else.

On 2006 Jul 25, at 13:27, ems wrote:

> On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 18:56 +0200, Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote:
>> On 7/25/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>> My understanding he got banned for not stopping when asked to stop
>>> mutliple times.
>>
>> Well, he probably needs to learn when a joke is "exhausted" or it is
>> not funny anymore. But he did apologize in the message that got him
>> banned:
>> http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2006-July/048264.html
>
> Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and
> apologizing
> is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when
> it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is
> normally a worse crime than what was done.
>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[ems]

On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 18:56 +0200, Ignacio Torres Masdeu wrote:
> On 7/25/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > My understanding he got banned for not stopping when asked to stop
> > mutliple times.
>
> Well, he probably needs to learn when a joke is "exhausted" or it is
> not funny anymore. But he did apologize in the message that got him
> banned:
> http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2006-July/048264.html

Being told you must stop means you must stop. Continuing and apologizing
is not stopping. Sometimes authority must practice power to shows when
it says something it means it. Making a joke out of authority is
normally a worse crime than what was done.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Ignacio Torres Masdeu]

On 7/25/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> My understanding he got banned for not stopping when asked to stop
> mutliple times.

Well, he probably needs to learn when a joke is "exhausted" or it is
not funny anymore. But he did apologize in the message that got him
banned:
http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2006-July/048264.html

> P.S.: Apologies if someone is offended by my emails, offending was
> never my intention.  I'm sorry if a limited sense of humor is a
> problem for some people.

The translation of Sieg Heil is "heil victory", and uriel did sign as
"Führer der Dissident Plan 9 IRC Kids". It looks like a convoluted
joke about the victory of the superiority of plan9 over lesser
operatin systems. I don't like that humor either, but a ban seems like
an over-reaction.

On the other hand, one of the things that moved me to try plan9 where
uriel's presentations. Maybe he didn't invent anything, but they were
a good resume of plan9 features. He could be a good web guy.

-- 
Regards,
Ignacio Torres <http://ignacio.torresmasdeu.name/>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[ems]

> Speaking as someone who's grandparents died in Auschwitz,
> I don't think he should have been banned simply for saying "Sieg Heil",
> but I don't know the whole story.
My understanding he got banned for not stopping when asked to stop
mutliple times.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[elbing]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1083 bytes --]

I don't read the "9fans list terms of use", but if there is any law to
forbid just a thought, please warn me about it.

elbing

2006/7/25, Dave Lukes <davel@anvil.com>:
>
> Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> >  jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> >
> > > It's not for me to say whether he should be banned or not,
>
> Me neither: I don't run the list.
>
> > > but I would voice the opinion that he needs sensitivity training.
>
> Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but* ...
> so do many of us.
>
> >  I think until he grows up, he ought to be banned. The correct
> >  decision was made.
>
> There are no "correct" decisions in cases like this, just opinions.
>
> Speaking as someone who's grandparents died in Auschwitz,
> I don't think he should have been banned simply for saying "Sieg Heil",
> but I don't know the whole story.
>
> Empirically, banning things (whether they be people or opinions) doesn't
> work:
> one needs to embrace and extend.
>
> Unfortunately, one doesn't always like what one has to embrace.
>
> D.
>
> * Little Britain reference.
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1466 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Dave Lukes]

Ronald G Minnich wrote:
>  jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
>
> > It's not for me to say whether he should be banned or not,

Me neither: I don't run the list.

> > but I would voice the opinion that he needs sensitivity training.

Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but* ...
so do many of us.

>  I think until he grows up, he ought to be banned. The correct
>  decision was made.

There are no "correct" decisions in cases like this, just opinions.

Speaking as someone who's grandparents died in Auschwitz,
I don't think he should have been banned simply for saying "Sieg Heil",
but I don't know the whole story.

Empirically, banning things (whether they be people or opinions) doesn't
work:
one needs to embrace and extend.

Unfortunately, one doesn't always like what one has to embrace.

D.

* Little Britain reference.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Ronald G Minnich]

jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:

> It's not for me to say whether he should be banned or not,
> but I would voice the opinion that he needs sensitivity
> training.

I think until he grows up, he ought to be banned. The correct decision
was made.

ron

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[jmk]

Thank you. This is news to those of us who do not have
access to Uriel's mailbox. Other people have mentioned to me
in private mail how offensive they found Uriel's postings.
It's not for me to say whether he should be banned or not,
but I would voice the opinion that he needs sensitivity
training.

But what the fuck do I know.


On Mon Jul 24 18:27:44 EDT 2006, benavento@gmail.com wrote:

> From: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu
> Date: Fri Jul 14 12:59:46 CES 2006
> To: uriel@cat-v.org
> Subject: Re: [9fans] wiki css
>
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2006 at 01:22:56AM +0200, uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
> > Sieg Heil!
>
> You can stop saying that now, and I really mean it.
>
> From: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu
> Date: Tue Jul 18 10:01:21 CES 2006
> To: uriel@cat-v.org
> CC: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu
> Subject: Re: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2006 at 09:11:28AM +0200, uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
> > Sieg Heil!
>
> I asked you to stop.
> Now you will now be unsubscribed from 9fans.
>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Federico G. Benavento]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 592 bytes --]

From: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu
Date: Fri Jul 14 12:59:46 CES 2006
To: uriel@cat-v.org
Subject: Re: [9fans] wiki css

On Fri, Jul 14, 2006 at 01:22:56AM +0200, uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
> Sieg Heil!

You can stop saying that now, and I really mean it.

From: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu
Date: Tue Jul 18 10:01:21 CES 2006
To: uriel@cat-v.org
CC: schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: mothra (was Re: Abaco (was Re: [9fans] smacme))

On Mon, Jul 17, 2006 at 09:11:28AM +0200, uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
> Sieg Heil!

I asked you to stop.
Now you will now be unsubscribed from 9fans.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3828 bytes --]

From: "Plan 9" <jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com>
To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:09:09 -0400
Message-ID: <op.tc7rtjd6dtyarn@fuji.hhdh.btopenzone.com>

If Uriel is banned then then he's banned in the same way Boyd was,
he decided it by himself in a fit of pique. In Boyd's case he
announced it on 9fans then was silent for a few months before starting
up again. Perhaps Uriel or one of his acolytes could tell us when
he was banned?

And before you invoke the Holy Hand Grenade of Boyd, there are
many people who read this list who knew Boyd a lot longer than Uriel
(myself included) and, I bet, a lot better.


On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:24:10 -0400, Federico G. Benavento <benavento@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hola,
>
>> and adds a link to a screenshot called sdl.png. I see there are some SDL
>> files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9?
>
> Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list.
>
> Federico G. Benavento
>
> PS: no jokes in this mail.
>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Plan 9]

If Uriel is banned then then he's banned in the same way Boyd was,
he decided it by himself in a fit of pique. In Boyd's case he
announced it on 9fans then was silent for a few months before starting
up again. Perhaps Uriel or one of his acolytes could tell us when
he was banned?

And before you invoke the Holy Hand Grenade of Boyd, there are
many people who read this list who knew Boyd a lot longer than Uriel
(myself included) and, I bet, a lot better.


On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:24:10 -0400, Federico G. Benavento <benavento@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hola,
>
>> and adds a link to a screenshot called sdl.png. I see there are some SDL
>> files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9?
>
> Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list.
>
> Federico G. Benavento
>
> PS: no jokes in this mail.
>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Federico Benavento]

Hola,

> He is?  Shucks; that's a shame.  He was amusing in a village-idiot sort

everyone has a role, what's yours?

--
Federico G. Benavento

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[David Leimbach]

On 7/23/06, Andrew Hudson <ahudson.inc@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, the LANL. Actually, I sent several emails to you, Andrey. But
> these bounced.
>
> I feel I made an honest, and earnest attempt to gather my facts re:
> Plan 9, but there is a serious amount of dead linkage one must wade
> through.
>

Did you know about 9fans before my incendiary response to your article?

Perhaps showing people 9fans is a certain step towards better advocacy?

I can pretty much guarantee someone here would have taken interest in
your attempts to do a little evangelism and been able and willing to
help you out.

Dave


> - Andrew
>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Dan Cross]

On Sun, Jul 23, 2006 at 06:24:10PM -0300, Federico G. Benavento wrote:
> Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list.

He is?  Shucks; that's a shame.  He was amusing in a village-idiot sort
of way.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[andrey mirtchovski]

On 7/23/06, Andrew Hudson <ahudson.inc@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, the LANL. Actually, I sent several emails to you, Andrey. But
> these bounced.

i was not at the lab for a significant period of time. i started back
there in october. you can say that the plan 9 efforts there have never
slowed down however. they're just not very visible :) you can check
some of the slashdot comments that mention our work (search for Los
Alamos in today's thread)

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[csant]

>> files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9?
> Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list.
Well, I do also receive e-mails off-list ;) I'd be curious to know how it
works.
/c

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Federico G. Benavento]

Hola,

> and adds a link to a screenshot called sdl.png. I see there are some SDL
> files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9?

Maybe uriel could talk about it, but he's banned from the list.

Federico G. Benavento

PS: no jokes in this mail.

[9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Andrew Hudson]

Yes, the LANL. Actually, I sent several emails to you, Andrey. But
these bounced.

I feel I made an honest, and earnest attempt to gather my facts re:
Plan 9, but there is a serious amount of dead linkage one must wade
through.

- Andrew

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[csant]

> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/23/1228225&from=rss

Somebody posts
	"In other news, SDL now works on Plan 9"
and adds a link to a screenshot called sdl.png. I see there are some SDL  
files in /n/sources/contrib - how well does SDL work on Plan 9?
/c

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[matt]

erik quanstrom wrote:
there is no such thing as a /. crowd

your faith in it is misplaced or rather, some of us troll for glenda
> no it /does/ get better.  the /. crowd understands that most reviews are clueless.
> (especially when posted to /..)  one of the first comments was the emacs man page.
>
> - erik
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[LiteStar numnums]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 776 bytes --]

Wait, wait it gets better: now slashdot is covering this 'news' item too.
Can't wait for the 'Plan9 is dead' comments to (t)roll in
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/23/1228225&from=rss

On 7/19/06, csant <csant@csant.info> wrote:
>
> http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235
>
> "Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and
> various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX
> applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others"
>
> /c
>



--
Lead thou me on, O Zeus, and Destiny,
To that goal long ago to me assigned.
I'll follow and not falter; if my will
Prove weak and craven, still I'll follow on.
-- Epictetus

He who enters his wife's dressing room is a philosopher or a fool. -- Balzac

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1235 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[erik quanstrom]

no it /does/ get better.  the /. crowd understands that most reviews are clueless.
(especially when posted to /..)  one of the first comments was the emacs man page.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Ronald G Minnich]

David Leimbach wrote:

> Yeah, V9FS needs some PR too, and advocacy I guess to get things into
> other OSes.

we could sure use some file systems .... gpsfs ought to just about work
fine under p9p, for example.

Although ... I'm getting real traction here with plan 9 in the embedded
psace. embedded is cool. so I can worry less about whatever linux
happens to be doing.

ron

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Wes Kussmaul]

Ronald G Minnich wrote:

> I've just (re)learned the hard way: successful research is about 99% 
> PR, 1% real work. And, there are very, very successful and well-known 
> researchers in this world who manage to make it 100% PR.

If what you're promoting is genuinely different, then audience education 
targeted at/through thought leaders is even more important than PR.

Waiting...

-- 
Wes Kussmaul
CIO
The Village Group
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451

781-647-7178


My uncle likes to say that the world’s biggest troubles started when the serpent said, “Try this fruit, and by the way if a bunch of people collectively calling themselves Arthur Andersen signs something it’s the same as if a person named Arthur Andersen signed it.” I don’t get the serpent and fruit part. Must be some Swiss mythology thing. He can be a bit obscure. 

                         P.K. Iggy
                         _How I Like Fixed The Internet_
                           (Tales from the Great Infodepression of 2009
                           and the prosperity that followed)

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Ronald G Minnich]

LiteStar numnums wrote:
> Hmm, what operating systems _doesn't_ have a kernel a command shell and
> various C compilers (will Unununum doesn't have a kernel...).

geez, kids these days :-)

you guys have it so easy :-)

ron

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Ronald G Minnich]

erik quanstrom wrote:
> powerful, distributed namespace?  you mean like, uh, dns.
>
> dns can emulate everything that ndb provides except two-level
> binding.


this mess is kind of our fault though. If we'd get off our collective
ass(es) and write stuff for osnews ... otherwise, the wikipedia effect
applies.

I've just (re)learned the hard way: successful research is about 99% PR,
1% real work. And, there are very, very successful and well-known
researchers in this world who manage to make it 100% PR.

ron
p.s. curmudgeon  A T lanl.gov gets to me to. You can guess why.

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Christoph Lohmann]

Good morning.

Am Wed, 19 Jul 2006 18:00:55 -0700 schrieb "David Leimbach"
<leimy2k@gmail.com>:

> The author could have at least clicked on the emacs(1) man page link
> and seen the contents.  I suppose that's asking too much in terms of
> "research" though.

I know he has.

Sincerely,

Christoph

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[Geoffrey Avila]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006, David Leimbach wrote:

> On 7/19/06, csant <csant@csant.info> wrote:
> > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235
> >
> > "Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and
> > various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX
> > applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others"
> >
> > /c
> >
> My sides hurt...  stop it...
>
What, emacs is available? Why didn't anyone tell me?

-GBA

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[LiteStar numnums]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 783 bytes --]

Hmm, what operating systems _doesn't_ have a kernel a command shell and
various C compilers (will Unununum doesn't have a kernel...).
Honestly, does that really pass as Operating System Realted News?

On 7/19/06, csant <csant@csant.info> wrote:
>
> http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235
>
> "Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and
> various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX
> applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others"
>
> /c
>



--
Lead thou me on, O Zeus, and Destiny,
To that goal long ago to me assigned.
I'll follow and not falter; if my will
Prove weak and craven, still I'll follow on.
-- Epictetus

He who enters his wife's dressing room is a philosopher or a fool. -- Balzac

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1159 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[David Leimbach]

On 7/19/06, csant <csant@csant.info> wrote:
> http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235
>
> "Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and
> various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX
> applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others"
>
> /c
>
My sides hurt...  stop it...

[9fans] Investigating the Plan 9 Operating System - OSNews.com

[csant]

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15235

"Plan 9 is similar to UNIX in that is has a kernel, a command shell, and  
various C compilers. It also has man pages and runs standard UNIX  
applications like awk, emacs, cp, ls, and others"

/c