[9fans] Essay: Is network transparency something bad?

[9fans] Essay: Is network transparency something bad?

[Ramon Garcia]

Hello,

The following essay, by the former program manager of Microsoft Excel
Joel Spolsky, criticizes network transparency (among other ideas).

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000041.html

It would be interesting to know the opinions of Plan9 designers.

Ramon

Re: [9fans] Essay: Is network transparency something bad?

[Dan Cross]

He was being polemical, and the context was different.  That said, I
enjoyed the article, but disagree with him on several points.

First, he was talking about a programming interface, not a system
interface.  Plan 9 integrates things like the network into the
filesystem, effectively making IPC endpoints look like local files and
the like, to enhance generality, and provide system-wide abstractions.
Everything looks like a file, and everyone knows how to deal with
files, so it makes things convenient.  But an important difference is
that a programmer still interacts with those abstractions explicitly.
You know that you're creating and manipulating a TCP connection when
you open the files under /net/tcp, or when you call dial(2).  Because
of that, you're congicent of the potential problems you might
encounter.  It's the psychological difference that matters here; the
point isn't to abstract things to the point of oblivion, but to
generalize the system interface and remove redundancies.  Just because
you do that doesn't mean you stop thinking about remote files versus
local files, it's just no longer the focal point.

Second, he was addressing specific issues in the Windows environment
that don't exist on other platforms.  We don't call ``CopyFile()''
under Plan 9; we invoke cp(1).  It doesn't ``halt your application,''
it pauses your shell (unless you background it).  There's no activity
indicator because there doesn't need to be: you can sweep another
window and use ls(1) to tell you if the file is getting bigger.  The
problems he's refering to go away, so finding a good solution to them
is a nonissue.  In exchange, we remove a *lot* of complexity (why do I
want every application that copies a file to know about FtpOpenFile?
Do I really insist that an FTP server be running every place I want to
copy a file *from*?), and the system is a lot more general.  Also, his
complaints about reliability are valid, but what happens if my FTP
server crashes?  Do I want to go back to having everything on one big
machine?  What if *that* crashes?  What's the point of a network, just
to transfer MP3's and images?

Anyway.  As Russ pointed out, he makes a few good points, but the
solution might not fit the crime here.  If he were exposed to a system
with a different type of interface, he might feel very differently.
But evidentally most of his experience is with Windows, which doesn't
have a particularly good abstraction for the network.  In Plan 9, as is
often the case with both Unix and VMS, the network plays a far more
central role in an installation.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Essay: Is network transparency something bad?

[paurea]

Dan Cross writes:

 > Anyway.  As Russ pointed out, he makes a few good points, but the
 > solution might not fit the crime here.  If he were exposed to a system
 > with a different type of interface, he might feel very differently.

Hmmm. I have been using Plan 9 over a wireless with a lot of delay
today (for some strange reason I can't really understand). Hangups and
timeouts are really painful. Things like importing /net on all your system,
getting a big delay, a hangup, and getting all your applications blocked are the
sort of things he talks about. This can happen in Plan 9. Importing
/net is powerful, but when it bites, it bites hard!!!.
--
                 Saludos,
                         Gorka

"Curiosity sKilled the cat"

[9fans] Re: Essay: Is network transparency something bad?

[Adrian Tritschler]

Ramon Garcia wrote:
> Hello,
>
> The following essay, by the former program manager of Microsoft Excel
> Joel Spolsky, criticizes network transparency (among other ideas).

Three Wrong Ideas From Computer Science

By Joel Spolsky
August 22, 2000

> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000041.html
>
> It would be interesting to know the opinions of Plan9 designers.

It would be just as interesting to know if the opinions of the author have
changed in the intervening two years.

	Adrian

---------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian Tritschler    mailto:Adrian.Tritschler@its.monash.edu.au
---------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Re: Essay: Is network transparency something bad?

[Boyd Roberts]

Ramon Garcia wrote:

 > The following essay, by the former program manager of Microsoft Excel

When I hear the words 'program manager of Microsoft Excel' I reach for
my revolver ...

Re: [9fans] Essay: Is network transparency something bad?

[Dan Cross]

>  > Anyway.  As Russ pointed out, he makes a few good points, but the
>  > solution might not fit the crime here.  If he were exposed to a system
>  > with a different type of interface, he might feel very differently.
>
> Hmmm. I have been using Plan 9 over a wireless with a lot of delay
> today (for some strange reason I can't really understand). Hangups and
> timeouts are really painful. Things like importing /net on all your system,
> getting a big delay, a hangup, and getting all your applications blocked are the
> sort of things he talks about. This can happen in Plan 9. Importing
> /net is powerful, but when it bites, it bites hard!!!.

Oh, don't get me wrong; I'm not saying it can't be painful.  But the
salient characteristic is that you *know* you're doing it, and in the
example he gave, one might not.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Re: Essay: Is network transparency something bad?

[Dan Cross]

But....  I thought you had an automatic!

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Re: Essay: Is network transparency something bad?

[Boyd Roberts]

Dan Cross wrote:

>But....  I thought you had an automatic!
>
I was trying to misquote Stalin/Goring.  Anyway, revolvers suck.