* [9fans] Essay: Is network transparency something bad? @ 2002-10-24 15:51 Ramon Garcia 2002-10-24 17:36 ` Dan Cross 2002-10-25 9:03 ` [9fans] " Adrian Tritschler 0 siblings, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Ramon Garcia @ 2002-10-24 15:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Hello, The following essay, by the former program manager of Microsoft Excel Joel Spolsky, criticizes network transparency (among other ideas). http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000041.html It would be interesting to know the opinions of Plan9 designers. Ramon ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Essay: Is network transparency something bad? 2002-10-24 15:51 [9fans] Essay: Is network transparency something bad? Ramon Garcia @ 2002-10-24 17:36 ` Dan Cross 2002-10-25 0:06 ` paurea 2002-10-25 9:03 ` [9fans] " Adrian Tritschler 1 sibling, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2002-10-24 17:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans He was being polemical, and the context was different. That said, I enjoyed the article, but disagree with him on several points. First, he was talking about a programming interface, not a system interface. Plan 9 integrates things like the network into the filesystem, effectively making IPC endpoints look like local files and the like, to enhance generality, and provide system-wide abstractions. Everything looks like a file, and everyone knows how to deal with files, so it makes things convenient. But an important difference is that a programmer still interacts with those abstractions explicitly. You know that you're creating and manipulating a TCP connection when you open the files under /net/tcp, or when you call dial(2). Because of that, you're congicent of the potential problems you might encounter. It's the psychological difference that matters here; the point isn't to abstract things to the point of oblivion, but to generalize the system interface and remove redundancies. Just because you do that doesn't mean you stop thinking about remote files versus local files, it's just no longer the focal point. Second, he was addressing specific issues in the Windows environment that don't exist on other platforms. We don't call ``CopyFile()'' under Plan 9; we invoke cp(1). It doesn't ``halt your application,'' it pauses your shell (unless you background it). There's no activity indicator because there doesn't need to be: you can sweep another window and use ls(1) to tell you if the file is getting bigger. The problems he's refering to go away, so finding a good solution to them is a nonissue. In exchange, we remove a *lot* of complexity (why do I want every application that copies a file to know about FtpOpenFile? Do I really insist that an FTP server be running every place I want to copy a file *from*?), and the system is a lot more general. Also, his complaints about reliability are valid, but what happens if my FTP server crashes? Do I want to go back to having everything on one big machine? What if *that* crashes? What's the point of a network, just to transfer MP3's and images? Anyway. As Russ pointed out, he makes a few good points, but the solution might not fit the crime here. If he were exposed to a system with a different type of interface, he might feel very differently. But evidentally most of his experience is with Windows, which doesn't have a particularly good abstraction for the network. In Plan 9, as is often the case with both Unix and VMS, the network plays a far more central role in an installation. - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Essay: Is network transparency something bad? 2002-10-24 17:36 ` Dan Cross @ 2002-10-25 0:06 ` paurea 2002-10-25 14:40 ` Dan Cross 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: paurea @ 2002-10-25 0:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Dan Cross writes: > Anyway. As Russ pointed out, he makes a few good points, but the > solution might not fit the crime here. If he were exposed to a system > with a different type of interface, he might feel very differently. Hmmm. I have been using Plan 9 over a wireless with a lot of delay today (for some strange reason I can't really understand). Hangups and timeouts are really painful. Things like importing /net on all your system, getting a big delay, a hangup, and getting all your applications blocked are the sort of things he talks about. This can happen in Plan 9. Importing /net is powerful, but when it bites, it bites hard!!!. -- Saludos, Gorka "Curiosity sKilled the cat" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Essay: Is network transparency something bad? 2002-10-25 0:06 ` paurea @ 2002-10-25 14:40 ` Dan Cross 0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2002-10-25 14:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > > Anyway. As Russ pointed out, he makes a few good points, but the > > solution might not fit the crime here. If he were exposed to a system > > with a different type of interface, he might feel very differently. > > Hmmm. I have been using Plan 9 over a wireless with a lot of delay > today (for some strange reason I can't really understand). Hangups and > timeouts are really painful. Things like importing /net on all your system, > getting a big delay, a hangup, and getting all your applications blocked are the > sort of things he talks about. This can happen in Plan 9. Importing > /net is powerful, but when it bites, it bites hard!!!. Oh, don't get me wrong; I'm not saying it can't be painful. But the salient characteristic is that you *know* you're doing it, and in the example he gave, one might not. - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Re: Essay: Is network transparency something bad? 2002-10-24 15:51 [9fans] Essay: Is network transparency something bad? Ramon Garcia 2002-10-24 17:36 ` Dan Cross @ 2002-10-25 9:03 ` Adrian Tritschler 2002-10-25 13:27 ` Boyd Roberts 1 sibling, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Adrian Tritschler @ 2002-10-25 9:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Ramon Garcia wrote: > Hello, > > The following essay, by the former program manager of Microsoft Excel > Joel Spolsky, criticizes network transparency (among other ideas). Three Wrong Ideas From Computer Science By Joel Spolsky August 22, 2000 > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000041.html > > It would be interesting to know the opinions of Plan9 designers. It would be just as interesting to know if the opinions of the author have changed in the intervening two years. Adrian --------------------------------------------------------------- Adrian Tritschler mailto:Adrian.Tritschler@its.monash.edu.au --------------------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: Essay: Is network transparency something bad? 2002-10-25 9:03 ` [9fans] " Adrian Tritschler @ 2002-10-25 13:27 ` Boyd Roberts 2002-10-25 14:50 ` Dan Cross 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Boyd Roberts @ 2002-10-25 13:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Ramon Garcia wrote: > The following essay, by the former program manager of Microsoft Excel When I hear the words 'program manager of Microsoft Excel' I reach for my revolver ... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: Essay: Is network transparency something bad? 2002-10-25 13:27 ` Boyd Roberts @ 2002-10-25 14:50 ` Dan Cross 2002-10-25 14:59 ` Boyd Roberts 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2002-10-25 14:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans But.... I thought you had an automatic! - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: Essay: Is network transparency something bad? 2002-10-25 14:50 ` Dan Cross @ 2002-10-25 14:59 ` Boyd Roberts 0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Boyd Roberts @ 2002-10-25 14:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Dan Cross wrote: >But.... I thought you had an automatic! > I was trying to misquote Stalin/Goring. Anyway, revolvers suck. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2002-10-25 14:59 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 8+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2002-10-24 15:51 [9fans] Essay: Is network transparency something bad? Ramon Garcia 2002-10-24 17:36 ` Dan Cross 2002-10-25 0:06 ` paurea 2002-10-25 14:40 ` Dan Cross 2002-10-25 9:03 ` [9fans] " Adrian Tritschler 2002-10-25 13:27 ` Boyd Roberts 2002-10-25 14:50 ` Dan Cross 2002-10-25 14:59 ` Boyd Roberts
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