Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[Keith Nash]

A port of Tcl would be really useful.  A port of Tk as well would be even better!

The Grail browser is written in Python, and uses Tkinter (Python's wrapper for Tk), which is a large project in its own right.

There is an HTML-rendering widget called Tkhtml that uses only Tcl,Tk, and C:
http://www.hwaci.com/sw/tkhtml/

Last time I looked, these were both much less advanced than mainstream browsers (which is hardly surprising really).

RE: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[nigel]

> It has Tk, but it also has the command wish(1), which is described as 'a Tcl command line interface to the Limbo/Tk graphics toolkit.'  The 'BUGS' section of the manpage states 'Arguably this has been superseded by sh-tk(1) ... and tkcmd(1) ...'
>

Well, ok. I guess we are both right in some ways. You can also read this in man 9 intro:

     function in that module. The Inferno Tk implementation is
     based on the Tk 4.0 documentation, but there are many
     differences, probably the greatest of which is that there is
     no associated Tcl implementation, so almost every Inferno

So, yes, there is some tcl'ness, but I answered on the basis that a reasonably full tcl
implementation was expected. wish, wm/wish, tclsh, and mathcalc are the
only tools which use the tcllib module. Note also that, since tcllib is a module,
it is written in Limbo, so that the best way to port it to Plan 9 is to run Inferno.

Nigel (@vitanuova.com)

RE: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[Keith Nash]

> The version of Inferno I know about doesn't have tcl, it has tk.

It has Tk, but it also has the command wish(1), which is described as 'a Tcl command line interface to the Limbo/Tk graphics toolkit.'  The 'BUGS' section of the manpage states 'Arguably this has been superseded by sh-tk(1) ... and tkcmd(1) ...'

There is also a tclsh command (i.e. Tcl without Tk), but I could not find a manpage for this, or for the tcl core module that it uses.  I am running the 3rd Edition Inferno build of 31 May 2002, which IIRC I loaded from the 4th Edition Plan 9 CD.

I couldn't find the source for Inferno's Tcl core module, so perhaps it is not part of the free Inferno download: can anyone confirm this?  If it is not, then perhaps the forthcoming Inferno licensing changes might be to our advantage.

Perhaps someone who knows more about Inferno than I do could comment.

Keith.

RE: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[Nigel Roles]

The version of Inferno I know about doesn't have tcl, it has tk.

-----Original Message-----
From: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu [mailto:9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu]On Behalf
Of Keith Nash
Sent: 07 April 2003 21:18
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9


Does anyone know much about Inferno's version of Tcl?

In "Official" Tcl, typing
puts $tcl_version
would print the version number; failing that, it would report that the
variable tcl_version has not been set.  Inferno's Tcl instead prints
$tcl_version
so I'm guessing that it is not closely related to the "Official" Tcl.
However, it might be an easier starting point for a port, since the
compiler, and the native UTF-8 support, will be similar to Plan 9.  Tcl has
had Unicode support since v8.1, but this is a late add-on to the project, at
the application level.

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[Keith Nash]

Does anyone know much about Inferno's version of Tcl?

In "Official" Tcl, typing
puts $tcl_version
would print the version number; failing that, it would report that the variable tcl_version has not been set.  Inferno's Tcl instead prints
$tcl_version
so I'm guessing that it is not closely related to the "Official" Tcl.  However, it might be an easier starting point for a port, since the compiler, and the native UTF-8 support, will be similar to Plan 9.  Tcl has had Unicode support since v8.1, but this is a late add-on to the project, at the application level.

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[Charles Forsyth]

>>I'm sorry, I don't think I get it -- is this pro- or against?

sorry, i probably read it too quickly and
didn't understand the proposal properly

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[matt]

>
>
>maybe Browse X would be easier http://browsex.com since it's already
>in tcl?
>
I wouldn't build for me on FreeBSD


but it does look quite complete with Javascript and whatnot

the C source will take some massaging

>static inline int
>is_prefix (char *prefix, char *str)
>{
>
>
(to be fair Grail needs some help to get it to work with python 2.2x )

>
>

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[andrey mirtchovski]

Oops, private mail made public again.. but since I made it public, here'
s the mail I sent Charles (mostly to say that I don't get it either):

-----
I'm sorry, I don't think I get it -- is this pro- or against?

in the inaugural plan9 paper, one of the benefits of the OS listed is a
single, centralized administration point?

-----

pardon my clumsyness, i'm helping somebody fix a hacked web server and am
cursing this non-plan9 OS world we live in..

andrey

On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Charles Forsyth wrote:

> i think i see:  to maintain a distributed system, it's important to
> centralise it.
>



On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, andrey mirtchovski wrote:

> I'll forward you the comment I sent him.. he still hasn't replied...
>
>
> On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, ron minnich wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> >
> > > i think i see:  to maintain a distributed system, it's important to centralise it.
> >
> >
> > I don't get that comment. The 'ports' collection for freebsd is just a
> > tree of makefiles, with multiple pointers in each thing to URLs to get
> > source and compile it. The source is distributed world-wide.
> >
> > Something like this for plan9 would be very useful, but could be done far
> > better.
> >
> > I think that's what andrey is talking about.
> >
> > ron
> >
>

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[andrey mirtchovski]

I'll forward you the comment I sent him.. he still hasn't replied...


On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, ron minnich wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Charles Forsyth wrote:
>
> > i think i see:  to maintain a distributed system, it's important to centralise it.
>
>
> I don't get that comment. The 'ports' collection for freebsd is just a
> tree of makefiles, with multiple pointers in each thing to URLs to get
> source and compile it. The source is distributed world-wide.
>
> Something like this for plan9 would be very useful, but could be done far
> better.
>
> I think that's what andrey is talking about.
>
> ron
>

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Charles Forsyth wrote:

> i think i see:  to maintain a distributed system, it's important to centralise it.


I don't get that comment. The 'ports' collection for freebsd is just a
tree of makefiles, with multiple pointers in each thing to URLs to get
source and compile it. The source is distributed world-wide.

Something like this for plan9 would be very useful, but could be done far
better.

I think that's what andrey is talking about.

ron

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[Charles Forsyth]

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i think i see:  to maintain a distributed system, it's important to centralise it.

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From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:26:24 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0304041425050.24389-100000@fbsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca>

slight misunderstanding -- i don't want ports for p9, i was just saying that
a "ports-like" configuration to keep all third-party software in a single,
easily accessible spot on the net would be very easy to do with p9 :)

andrey

On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Joel Salomon wrote:

> Ports is available for linux: http://www.gentoo.org/
> Now, get *them* to support plan9 ;-)
>
> --Joel
>

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[andrey mirtchovski]

slight misunderstanding -- i don't want ports for p9, i was just saying that
a "ports-like" configuration to keep all third-party software in a single,
easily accessible spot on the net would be very easy to do with p9 :)

andrey

On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Joel Salomon wrote:

> Ports is available for linux: http://www.gentoo.org/
> Now, get *them* to support plan9 ;-)
>
> --Joel
>

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[Joel Salomon]

Ports is available for linux: http://www.gentoo.org/
Now, get *them* to support plan9 ;-)

--Joel

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[Derek Fawcus]

On Fri, Apr 04, 2003 at 11:43:53AM +0100, matt wrote:
> if it's Tcl/Tk then there would possibly be an extra bonus upon completion :
>
> http://grail.sourceforge.net/
>
> Grail is an extensible Internet browser written entirely in the
> interpreted object-oriented programming language Python

maybe Browse X would be easier http://browsex.com since it's already
in tcl?

DF

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[andrey mirtchovski]

That's what I meant -- ported programs do not have to be on the same
server as the OS sources. This would allow access for more people with less
probability for mischief :)

There's another issue with having it on sources besides not having access to
it -- nobody except the people at bell-labs decides what gets in and what
doesn't. The stuff that gets in extra/ usually becomes static and rarely
gets modified.

Example: there's no point in putting xscreensaver ported hacks on sources,
but there's also no point in emailing 9fans every time I've made a change to
them or added a new one. Same goes for checking all p9-related bookmarks to
see if there's anything new/changed...

BSD's ports is a perfect (and well working -- I miss it in Linux already)
example of what I want to see -- the operating system is separate, is
modified only by qualified personnel and can exist on its own, while ports
is a large collection of pretty much everything that someone found useful
and brought along. The people who deal with ports are not necessarily at the
same level as the people who write the core of the OS.

andrey


On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Fco.J.Ballesteros wrote:

> We are already doing this. Sources was setup for that
> purpose. I was referring to doing the same for ongoing efforts
> not yet ready for sources. For other stuff, I'm pretty sure
> ported stuff can get into sources if found useful.
>
> just to clarify.

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

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We are already doing this. Sources was setup for that
purpose. I was referring to doing the same for ongoing efforts
not yet ready for sources. For other stuff, I'm pretty sure
ported stuff can get into sources if found useful.

just to clarify.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2402 bytes --]

From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 08:35:57 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0304040827300.22509-100000@fbsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca>

On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Fco.J.Ballesteros wrote:

> It's just so nice to mount software distributions intead of downloading
> them from the web :-), diffs, pulls, etc. etc.
>

imagine how much better this could be than the *BSD ports collections! all
we need is someone with a dedicated file server to store all the 9ports at
(a-la sources.cs.bell-labs).. then updating local ports (cvsup in BSD's
language) is as trivial as doing a replica/pull or a mk install after
mounting the server...

i've been in 'but this is so much easier in plan9' mode for the past few
months...

andrey

ps: i'm pretty sure even a dsl connection can handle the barrage of plan9
users doing a replica/pull every night on all the plan9 ports :)

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[andrey mirtchovski]

On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Fco.J.Ballesteros wrote:

> It's just so nice to mount software distributions intead of downloading
> them from the web :-), diffs, pulls, etc. etc.
>

imagine how much better this could be than the *BSD ports collections! all
we need is someone with a dedicated file server to store all the 9ports at
(a-la sources.cs.bell-labs).. then updating local ports (cvsup in BSD's
language) is as trivial as doing a replica/pull or a mk install after
mounting the server...

i've been in 'but this is so much easier in plan9' mode for the past few
months...

andrey

ps: i'm pretty sure even a dsl connection can handle the barrage of plan9
users doing a replica/pull every night on all the plan9 ports :)

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

> Do you run a "dump"?  If not, can I twist your arm to use CVS while

Although probably sources could be used for that, it would be nice
if those of us that run a file server would offer accounts for other
9fans to mount our file servers. The interesting stuff we might have here
is already in sources, but in any case I'm willing to open such accounts.

It's just so nice to mount software distributions intead of downloading
them from the web :-), diffs, pulls, etc. etc.

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[will551]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucio De Re" <lucio@proxima.alt.za>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9


> On Fri, Apr 04, 2003 at 09:51:59AM +0100, will551 wrote:
> >
> > I'm going to start porting Tcl to Plan 9. Russ, a few months back
> > you told me you had started a port and put it to one side. Can you
> > tar up your work and email it on to me. This will get me started and
> > speed up the process. I am hoping to start the port early next week.
>
> Do you run a "dump"?  If not, can I twist your arm to use CVS while
> you work on it?  I'm quite interested in your project, would do it
> myself if I didn't have enough distractions already, and would
> certainly like to track developments and help as much as possible.
>
> Sourceforge, perhaps, or would you use a CVS server I provide?
>
> ++L
>
>

hi ++L
I do have a file server so there would be an automatic dump a day but I
would be
interested in loading up your CVS server maybe once a week or something
similar.
Matt - Grail sounds good but at the moment I have only time to port Tcl -
without
Tk. Hopefully soon after a Tk port will follow.
Thanks Russ - going to go with Tcl 8.3.5 so -
talk 2u soon
will551

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[Russ Cox]

> I'm going to start porting Tcl to Plan 9. Russ, a few months back
> you told me you had started a port and put it to one side. Can you
> tar up your work and email it on to me. This will get me started and
> speed up the process. I am hoping to start the port early next week.

Sorry, it's gone.

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[matt]

if it's Tcl/Tk then there would possibly be an extra bonus upon completion :

http://grail.sourceforge.net/

Grail is an extensible Internet browser written entirely in the
interpreted object-oriented programming language Python
<http://www.python.org>. It runs on Unix, and, to some extent, on
Windows and Macintosh. Grail is easily extended to support new protocols
or file formats. Grail is distributed in source form, free of charge,
and without warranties. It requires recent versions of Python and Tcl/Tk
to run.

Grail supports full HTML 2.0, including images, forms and imagemaps, and
many HTML 3.2 features. It uses asynchronous document transfer, supports
printing and saving documents, searching, bookmarks, history, and more.
It also supports frames, client-side imagemaps, file upload in forms,
support for JPEG, TIFF and XBM images, image printing, and tables
(within the limitations of the Tk toolkit).

Re: [9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[Lucio De Re]

On Fri, Apr 04, 2003 at 09:51:59AM +0100, will551 wrote:
>
> I'm going to start porting Tcl to Plan 9. Russ, a few months back
> you told me you had started a port and put it to one side. Can you
> tar up your work and email it on to me. This will get me started and
> speed up the process. I am hoping to start the port early next week.

Do you run a "dump"?  If not, can I twist your arm to use CVS while
you work on it?  I'm quite interested in your project, would do it
myself if I didn't have enough distractions already, and would
certainly like to track developments and help as much as possible.

Sourceforge, perhaps, or would you use a CVS server I provide?

++L

[9fans] Start of Tcl Port to Plan 9

[will551]

hey there
I'm going to start porting Tcl to Plan 9. Russ, a few months back
you told me you had started a port and put it to one side. Can you
tar up your work and email it on to me. This will get me started and
speed up the process. I am hoping to start the port early next week.
tx
will551