Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

On Wed Oct  8 22:40:35 JST 2003, Jim Choate wrote:
> > > rio may be graphical it isn't iconic
> > No, Plan 9 users can read.
> It is often true that a picture is worth a thousand words.

letters are the most useful icons ever invented, imho.
i agree that `x' mark on web browsers is more space saving
than `Stop', though.

P.S.
i'm always fsck'd up when i point an icon which i can't
identify its function and wait a stupid balloon to appear.
--

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

>> It is often true that a picture is worth a thousand words.

Which picture describes /rc/bin/termrc ? :-)

sorry to add noise, couldn't resist.

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[Charles Forsyth]

>>i'm always fsck'd up when i point an icon which i can't
>>identify its function and wait a stupid balloon to appear.

the most amusing example of that i've seen recently
was the Redhat button with some text in it that when
hovered over produced the same text in a balloon.

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[splite]

On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 11:16:38PM +0100, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> >>i'm always fsck'd up when i point an icon which i can't
> >>identify its function and wait a stupid balloon to appear.
>
> the most amusing example of that i've seen recently
> was the Redhat button with some text in it that when
> hovered over produced the same text in a balloon.

I can't wait to see what follows "tool tips".  How about full motion video
in a popup window (maybe with some subtle product placement) that shows what
would happen if you clicked on the icon.

Maybe after that, Microsoft will be ready to switch to Voice-activated User
Interfaces and start the cycle anew:

take 1: speak natural language commands to the computer
doesn't work, people can't form unambiguous commands

take 2: computer speaks a list of commands to speak back
doesn't work, applications add too many commands, takes all day to hear them

take 3: invent "shorthand" language so that it doesn't take so long to recite
        menu items
doesn't work, people can't remember the shorthand

take 4: if no reponse to "shorthand" query, repeat in real language and wait
        for user to confirm
works, but everything now takes ten times as long to do

take 5: people switch to 9mm command language (small boyd tribute)

Of course, by then Plan 9 users will be driving acme by thought control.
(But remember, you must think in UTF-8.)

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[a]

y'know, a friend of mine once showed me a Nintendo
Power Glove hacked up to a DOS PC (i think; maybe
Win95) to act as a mouse. it was pretty unusable,
but looked appropriatly like something out of a
mid-80's vision of computers in 2003.
ア

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[C H Forsyth]

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data glove?

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From: ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] mouse dragging
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 19:46:33 -0600 (MDT)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310081945540.30148-100000@maxroach.lanl.gov>

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:

> > but you can easily achieve some form of the interface in acme(1).
> > just type `rm' in tag line, select the file name to delete, execute
> > the `rm' on the tag line with middle-left mouse chording.
>
> No, it's not easy to let the today's students who are too much adapted to
> windows etc.   I experienced it, I'm still trying though.

my fingers are too clumsy for chording, however. You need a way to do this
for people with large, clumsy fingers.

ron

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[Axel Belinfante]

> Actually the mice on the sun workstations here at cooper would be quite
> nice for chording - nice wide mouse with the buttons spaced a bit from
> each other. There may be hope.
>
> (No, the sunstations are not running p9, so all the chording capability is
> wasted on *n!x + X. <grumble> )

just to add some noise:

Well, I have a sun on my desk too -- and use chording a lot
(wily, 9term, drawterm)
Actually, I was quite amazed when, some years ago,
I was forced to notice that I had chording to cut/paste
really wired into my fingers because without thinking
I tried to use a chord in an application that did not
support it (exmh, I think it was).

Axel.

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[Joel Salomon]

ron minnich said:
> my fingers are too clumsy for chording, however. You need a way to do
> this  for people with large, clumsy fingers.

get a better mouse ;-)

Actually the mice on the sun workstations here at cooper would be quite
nice for chording - nice wide mouse with the buttons spaced a bit from
each other. There may be hope.

(No, the sunstations are not running p9, so all the chording capability is
wasted on *n!x + X. <grumble> )

--Joel

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[ron minnich]

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:

> > but you can easily achieve some form of the interface in acme(1).
> > just type `rm' in tag line, select the file name to delete, execute
> > the `rm' on the tag line with middle-left mouse chording.
>
> No, it's not easy to let the today's students who are too much adapted to
> windows etc.   I experienced it, I'm still trying though.

my fingers are too clumsy for chording, however. You need a way to do this
for people with large, clumsy fingers.

ron

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[okamoto]

> if you are discussing about the safety net property of trash-can,
> i should say you don't need it as long as you are backed up by
> either worm file system or venti/fossil.  you can retrieve it from
> /n/dump whenever you want it with specific date.

You got a point.  No, we don't need such thing.

> but you can easily achieve some form of the interface in acme(1).
> just type `rm' in tag line, select the file name to delete, execute
> the `rm' on the tag line with middle-left mouse chording.

No, it's not easy to let the today's students who are too much adapted to
windows etc.   I experienced it, I'm still trying though.

I got a conviction that we can implement mouse left+middle chode
to delete or copy a file object in a directory window.   I at first
worried about it's too easy action to delete it in mistake, that is we
have to prepare some safety net for it.   This is the reason why
I considered trash can.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[rt]

// The reason being it takes a lot longer to type than click once.

i'm not disagreeing, but i'm no longer willing to take that claim
at face value, at least not as a blanket statement. your brain
pays more attention to "interesting" tasks than "booring" ones.
an interesting study was done WRT mouse-based vs. keyboard-based
cursor positioning for text editing. the article has been linked
on this list list a few times, but there's too much going on at
work right now for me to find it. it was pretty informative.
ア

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[rt]

// ...in practice that I always empty the trash without thinking immediately...

i do as well, although i do sometimes forget or batch things. it has saved me
some greif a few times, but dump's saved me weeks, at least. the "Trash" is
to dump what a real trash can is to a large stoorroom.
ア

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[Jim Choate]

On Wed, 8 Oct 2003, Richard Miller wrote:

> > rio may be graphical it isn't iconic
>
> No, Plan 9 users can read.

Which isn't necessarily a plus, and in fact in some cases may be hubris.

It is often true that a picture is worth a thousand words.

In addittion there are issues about efficiency where a non-iconic
interface is deficient when compared to a iconic one. The reason being it
takes a lot longer to type than click once.


 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[Richard Miller]

> rio may be graphical it isn't iconic

No, Plan 9 users can read.

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

On Wed Oct  8 11:25:35 JST 2003, okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:
> I was asked by a very newbie where is "trash can".
> Well, we haven't one.   I tried to tell her why we don't need it.
> However, in my deep mind, I doubted it to myself.
> I really don't need it?

if you are discussing about the safety net property of trash-can,
i should say you don't need it as long as you are backed up by
either worm file system or venti/fossil.  you can retrieve it from
/n/dump whenever you want it with specific date.

or if the user interface is in question, you might need the trash-can
for a certain kind of user.

but you can easily achieve some form of the interface in acme(1).
just type `rm' in tag line, select the file name to delete, execute
the `rm' on the tag line with middle-left mouse chording.

furthermore, you can copy rm(1) to whatever you like and use it instead.
eg.  `Gomibako' or `trash'.  even Japanese Kanji command name is fine
in Plan 9. :)
--

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[Andrew Simmons]

At 11:25 8/10/2003 +0900, you wrote:
>I was asked by a very newbie where is "trash can".
>Well, we haven't one.   I tried to tell her why we don't need it.
>However, in my deep mind, I doubted it to myself.
>I really don't need it?
>
>We have no use of mouse dragging.  If we can drag a file object
>in a directory window to another window, and if it means copying
>the object, or if we have choding of left+middle to a file in a directory
>window means to delete the object, we have any problem?
>
>Kenji


The trash can on the Mac is supposed to provide a safety net, so that after
a file is "deleted", it stays in the trash can until you explicitly empty
the trash, giving you a chance to change your mind about the deletion. I
find in practice that I always empty the trash without thinking immediately
after putting a file there, so that in my case the safety net is illusory,
and only slows me down.

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[Jim Choate]

On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:

> I was asked by a very newbie where is "trash can".
> Well, we haven't one.   I tried to tell her why we don't need it.
> However, in my deep mind, I doubted it to myself.
> I really don't need it?

Of course you don't need it if you don't have a iconic display and from
what I can tell rio may be graphical it isn't iconic.

 -- --

God exists because mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exist because we
can't prove it.
                          Andre Weil, in H. Eves, Mathematical Circles Adieu

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.com
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.com

Re: [9fans] mouse dragging

[George Michaelson]

On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:25:46 +0900 okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:

> I was asked by a very newbie where is "trash can".
> Well, we haven't one.   I tried to tell her why we don't need it.
> However, in my deep mind, I doubted it to myself.
> I really don't need it?
>
> We have no use of mouse dragging.  If we can drag a file object
> in a directory window to another window, and if it means copying
> the object, or if we have choding of left+middle to a file in a directory
> window means to delete the object, we have any problem?
>
> Kenji

A trash can removes the name of an object from the apparent view, but retains
its contents, and provides an undo.

So if your litany of drag/chording options includes that (the above list
doesn't) then no, there is no problem.

(dragging a copy, then chording delete on the original is two things, not one)

Isn't this like arguing why mv is unneeded given V6 cp+rm?

-George

[9fans] mouse dragging

[okamoto]

I was asked by a very newbie where is "trash can".
Well, we haven't one.   I tried to tell her why we don't need it.
However, in my deep mind, I doubted it to myself.
I really don't need it?

We have no use of mouse dragging.  If we can drag a file object
in a directory window to another window, and if it means copying
the object, or if we have choding of left+middle to a file in a directory
window means to delete the object, we have any problem?

Kenji