[9fans] gmail 0: messages

[9fans] gmail 0: messages

[Philippe from Myrealbox]

Hello list,

I'm out of option for now as how to get my gmail emails on my plan9 box.
Everything seems to be ok on both side (pop in gmail is set to yes & for 
only new emails). I think I've tried everything from gmail setting but still
no luck. I switched to No for pop in gmail, just to verify that upas/fs gets
it right and it does.

     /sys/lib/tls/mail    has what is needed

     upas/fs -f /pops/pop.gmail.com/my-userid 
  or 
    upas/fs -f /pops/pop.gmail/my-userid@gmail.com

gives me : 
    !Adding key: dom=pop.gmail.com proto=pass service=pop user=my-userid@gmail.com
    password:
    !
    /usr/ziphos/%mail
    0 messages
    :


The same kind of setting for another mail provider  on the same box works just fine.

I would sure appreciate any hint.

Philippe

Re: [9fans] gmail 0: messages

[Russ Cox]

> I'm out of option for now as how to get my gmail emails on my plan9 box.

Gmail pop is not compatible with Plan 9.  Gmail
assumes that clients are running in what is
usually called "move messages off the server"
mode, and so once the client has downloaded a
message, gmail doesn't show the message to the
client again.  This confuses upas/fs, which
expects to see the same set of messages the next
time it connects, assuming that if a message is
gone, it has been deleted.

In Gmail's defense, they're using pop3 in a
context it wasn't designed for, namely having
thousands or more messages to show the user.
Rather than respond to the "list messages" command
with thousands of lines, they show 100, and once
those 100 have been downloaded, they show the next
100.  It works for clients that use pop3 as a
download protocol, but not for clients that want
to leave the messages on the server.

Upas/fs isn't the only pop3 client that gmail
confuses.  My roommate's cell phone exhibits
exactly the same problem: it downloads enough to
show the message list, and then when you open a
message, it tries to redownload the message, but
the message is gone.  So you can see the message
but not open it.

You could run a separate pop3 fetch program and
then deliver the mail to a local Plan 9 mail box.
See /n/sources/contrib/rsc/cmd/pop3get.c.

You cannot use gmail's pop server directly.

Russ

Re: [9fans] gmail 0: messages

[Russ Cox]

I made upas/fs know more about what it can't handle.

% upas/fs -f /pops/pop.gmail.com/russcox
upas/fs: opening mailbox: server does not allow mail to be left on server
%

Russ

Re: [9fans] gmail 0: messages

[Adrian Tritschler]

Russ Cox wrote:
>> I'm out of option for now as how to get my gmail emails on my plan9
>> box.

> Gmail pop is not compatible with Plan 9.  Gmail assumes that clients
> are running in what is usually called "move messages off the server" 
> mode, and so once the client has downloaded a message, gmail doesn't
> show the message to the client again.  This confuses upas/fs, which 
> expects to see the same set of messages the next time it connects,
> assuming that if a message is gone, it has been deleted.
> 
> In Gmail's defense, they're using pop3 in a context it wasn't
> designed for, namely having

It seems to me that Gmail (and others) seem to be using POP3 to emulate
(badly) what IMAP is designed to do.  Does anyone know why they (and
others) choose to do this?

> thousands or more messages to show the user. Rather than respond to

..snip..

> You cannot use gmail's pop server directly.
> 
> Russ
	Adrian

---------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian Tritschler                          mailto:ajft@ajft.org
Latitude 38°S, Longitude 145°E, Altitude 50m,      Shoe size 44
---------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] gmail 0: messages

[Russ Cox]

> It seems to me that Gmail (and others) seem to be using POP3 to emulate
> (badly) what IMAP is designed to do.  Does anyone know why they (and
> others) choose to do this?

It's not clear to me that IMAP would help much here.
Gmail doesn't have a concept of messages being
assigned to a particular folder, so you'd only have
the inbox, and it would have a bazillion messages.

Russ

Re: [9fans] gmail 0: messages

[Adrian Tritschler]

Russ Cox wrote:
>>It seems to me that Gmail (and others) seem to be using POP3 to emulate
>>(badly) what IMAP is designed to do.  Does anyone know why they (and
>>others) choose to do this?
> 
> 
> It's not clear to me that IMAP would help much here.
> Gmail doesn't have a concept of messages being
> assigned to a particular folder, so you'd only have
> the inbox, and it would have a bazillion messages.

Maybe IMAP asks for folders, but if Gmail presents their tags/labels as
folders, how would the client know the difference?

Just seems that POP is intended for mail downloading, while IMAP is
intended for manipulating remote mnailboxes ...maybe I should read the
RFCs and make sure I fully know what I'm talking about though.

> Russ
	Adrian

---------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian Tritschler                          mailto:ajft@ajft.org
Latitude 38°S, Longitude 145°E, Altitude 50m,      Shoe size 44
---------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] gmail 0: messages

[Rob Pike]

The client would know the difference because a message can have multiple labels
but (as far as I know) most clients don't allow a message to be in
multiple folders.

-rob

Re: [9fans] gmail 0: messages

[geoff]

IMAP is yet another bad remote filesystem protocol, this one with
special hacks added to permit fast remote searching of mail.  It's
complex enough that implementations are pretty much forced to be big
(e.g., Plan 9's imap4d is ~8,400 lines of C vs. 804 lines for
upas/pop3) and it requires support of at least one botched character
encoding, UTF-7.  What's not to like?

Re: [9fans] gmail 0: messages

[Uriel]

On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 12:17:55PM +1100, Adrian Tritschler wrote:
> It seems to me that Gmail (and others) seem to be using POP3 to emulate
> (badly) what IMAP is designed to do.  Does anyone know why they (and
> others) choose to do this?
It seems to me that people seem to be using IMAP to do (badly) what 9P
is designed to do.

uriel

Re: [9fans] gmail 0: messages

[Adrian Tritschler]

Uriel wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 08, 2005 at 12:17:55PM +1100, Adrian Tritschler wrote:
> 
>>It seems to me that Gmail (and others) seem to be using POP3 to emulate
>>(badly) what IMAP is designed to do.  Does anyone know why they (and
>>others) choose to do this?
> 
> It seems to me that people seem to be using IMAP to do (badly) what 9P
> is designed to do.

I guess I asked for that one.  Ok, who wants to ask Google to implement
a 9p interface to gmail?

> uriel

---------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian Tritschler                          mailto:ajft@ajft.org
Latitude 38°S, Longitude 145°E, Altitude 50m,      Shoe size 44
---------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] gmail 0: messages

[John Floren]

Adrian Tritschler wrote:
<snip>
> I guess I asked for that one.  Ok, who wants to ask Google to implement
> a 9p interface to gmail?
> 
I have to go on co-op in two years... maybe I'll apply to Google, saying
"You know, I have a really good idea for Gmail...  If you hire me, I can
do it."
The response, when they find out what I did:  "We paid you to write an
interface for WHAT operating system?!" :-)

John
-- 
http://digi.nuwen.net/
"Who alone has reason to *lie himself out* of actuality?  He who
*suffers* from it."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Re: [9fans] gmail 0: messages

[David Leimbach]

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On 12/7/05, John Floren <jfloren@moseslake-wa.com> wrote:
>
> Adrian Tritschler wrote:
> <snip>
> > I guess I asked for that one.  Ok, who wants to ask Google to implement
> > a 9p interface to gmail?
> >
> I have to go on co-op in two years... maybe I'll apply to Google, saying
> "You know, I have a really good idea for Gmail...  If you hire me, I can
> do it."
> The response, when they find out what I did:  "We paid you to write an
> interface for WHAT operating system?!" :-)



You tell them that it's for all 9p speaking systems.   That includes linux
now with v9fs, hopefully with Alan Cox [FreeBSD Alan Cox], anything that can
use Tim Newsham's Python 9p implementation, etc. :)

It's not as obscure as it once was.  I've seen talk of adding it to OpenBSD
as well as a translation layer for DragonFlyBSD's native VFS messaging [well
I proposed that one but god knows when I'll have time for that]

Anyone interested in adding 9p to NetBSD? :)

We'll just spread out like a virus and take over.  ;-)

Dave


John
> --
> http://digi.nuwen.net/
> "Who alone has reason to *lie himself out* of actuality?  He who
> *suffers* from it."
> -- Friedrich Nietzsche
>

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Re: [9fans] gmail 0: messages

[Paweł Lasek]

On 12/9/05, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> You tell them that it's for all 9p speaking systems.   That includes linux
> now with v9fs, hopefully with Alan Cox [FreeBSD Alan Cox], anything that can
> use Tim Newsham's Python 9p implementation, etc. :)

A fast hack would be to port gmailfs from Linux/FUSE, as it uses not POP, but
Gmail WebAPI. As it's already an userspace fs, you would only have to
change FUSE-dependant layer and rework it to check "normal" e-mails
instead of
the ones it uses for file-storage.

> It's not as obscure as it once was.  I've seen talk of adding it to OpenBSD
> as well as a translation layer for DragonFlyBSD's native VFS messaging [well
> I proposed that one but god knows when I'll have time for that]

I see 9p more as a RPC/resource sharing system - I have a strong feeling
that I'd rather use sthg like AFS (if they implement files with size
>2GB) or other _fast_
network, file-oriented fs for my files (With driver using 9p as interface :D )

> Anyone interested in adding 9p to NetBSD? :)
>
> We'll just spread out like a virus and take over.  ;-)

Why not... just add it to windows, so you could use 9p mount disks...

And then I'd only have to write XFS/JFS/UFS2 for 9P and stop caring
about not having access to some files :D

> Dave

--
Paweł Lasek
"Once a hitokiri, always a hitokiri. This will never change" - Jine-Ei
http://plasek.jogger.pl [in polish]