[9fans] need feedback: bibTeX users?

[9fans] need feedback: bibTeX users?

[tlaronde]

Hello,

Since I'm finishing the task I have undertaken---provide a complete core
TeX system with MetaPost---, there is one piece that is a WEB program,
hence needs to be translated, and that may be used: bibTeX.

I don't use it myself but since "third millenium state of the art
academic research" is evaluated by the same algorithm as the one
used by Google to rank pages: number of citations and cross citations,
I guess it is fundamental for an author to be able to cite a maximum
of works he has not read, crediting people that have actually signed
them but not actually written them, keeping in mind that it is not
a problem that none of them has ever grasped the subject since it
doesn't make sense.

The problem is that the version of bibTeX in the sources I have started
with is 0.99c; it is not rocket science; it seems to me overkill to not
just handle the bibliography with normal text utilities; and it seems
that there are other versions in use now mainly with LaTeX.

So questions:

1) Are there people using it?
2) What version?
3) Is there now a non WEB based implementation?---in this case I could
simply forget about it.---

I need feedback since my main engineering tool is still /dev/null!
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] need feedback: bibTeX users?

[James Chapman]

Dear Thierry,

I use it:

james$ bibtex --version
BibTeX 0.99d (TeX Live 2010/MacPorts 2010_0)
kpathsea version 6.0.0
Copyright 2010 Oren Patashnik.
...

In my area (roughly theoretical computer science I guess) LaTeX is a
necessity (I have to send the LaTeX source to the publisher) and
bibTeX is used by most people to manage their own references. Lots of
people include bibtex for their papers on their publications webpages
to make this easy. This is the only reliable source of bibtex,
'harvested' bibtex produces laughably bad results. However, I often
have to remove the bibtex file and inline the references for the
camera ready version of the paper. I'd say that bibtex is usually used
to manage a library of references that you accumulate over time. It's
not a necessity but an important convenience and one whose use is
widespread.

If you want to work at all you need LaTeX. If you want to work with
others you need bibTeX. You could do without it but nobody else is
prepared too. Trying to avoid either would be like refusing to use
email. When I say you I guess I mean me :)

Best wishes and keep up the good work!

James



On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 12:39 PM,  <tlaronde@polynum.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Since I'm finishing the task I have undertaken---provide a complete core
> TeX system with MetaPost---, there is one piece that is a WEB program,
> hence needs to be translated, and that may be used: bibTeX.
>
> I don't use it myself but since "third millenium state of the art
> academic research" is evaluated by the same algorithm as the one
> used by Google to rank pages: number of citations and cross citations,
> I guess it is fundamental for an author to be able to cite a maximum
> of works he has not read, crediting people that have actually signed
> them but not actually written them, keeping in mind that it is not
> a problem that none of them has ever grasped the subject since it
> doesn't make sense.
>
> The problem is that the version of bibTeX in the sources I have started
> with is 0.99c; it is not rocket science; it seems to me overkill to not
> just handle the bibliography with normal text utilities; and it seems
> that there are other versions in use now mainly with LaTeX.
>
> So questions:
>
> 1) Are there people using it?
> 2) What version?
> 3) Is there now a non WEB based implementation?---in this case I could
> simply forget about it.---
>
> I need feedback since my main engineering tool is still /dev/null!
> --
>        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
>                      http://www.kergis.com/
> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
>
>

Re: [9fans] need feedback: bibTeX users?

[John Stalker]

> Hello,
>
> Since I'm finishing the task I have undertaken---provide a complete core
> TeX system with MetaPost---, there is one piece that is a WEB program,
> hence needs to be translated, and that may be used: bibTeX.

...skipping...

> So questions:
>
> 1) Are there people using it?

Yes, I use it all the time.

> 2) What version?

0.99d, although I don't think the version matters much.

> 3) Is there now a non WEB based implementation?---in this case I could
> simply forget about it.---

I don't think there is.

Bibtex is an ugly program, but MathSciNet gives references in BibTeX
format, and this is what journals demand, so I cut and paste.  It's
been about 7 years since I had a plan9 machine as my main machine
for work, and I probably won't go back to that, but if I did then a
working version of LaTeX+BibTeX would be a requirement.
--
John Stalker
School of Mathematics
Trinity College Dublin
tel +353 1 896 1983
fax +353 1 896 2282

Re: [9fans] need feedback: bibTeX users?

[Gorka Guardiola]

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:39 AM,  <tlaronde@polynum.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Since I'm finishing the task I have undertaken---provide a complete core
> TeX system with MetaPost---, there is one piece that is a WEB program,
> hence needs to be translated, and that may be used: bibTeX.
>

We use it all the time. We stopped using it for a paper and it was a mess
because the ordering and other things needed to be carefully checked each time
the format changed.

Also the websites like google scholar generate bibTeX so...

G.

Re: [9fans] need feedback: bibTeX users?

[Gorka Guardiola]

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Gorka Guardiola <paurea@gmail.com> wrote:

> We use it all the time. We stopped using it for a paper and it was a mess
> because the ordering and other things needed to be carefully checked each time
> the format changed.
>

0.99c

--
- curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] need feedback: bibTeX users?

[Christian Neukirchen]

tlaronde@polynum.com writes:

> 3) Is there now a non WEB based implementation?---in this case I could
> simply forget about it.---

There is for a certain subset, but it's probably not what you are
looking for:
http://biblatex-biber.sourceforge.net/

--
Christian Neukirchen  <chneukirchen@gmail.com>  http://chneukirchen.org

Re: [9fans] need feedback: bibTeX users?

[ron minnich]

can't write papers without bibtex.

reviewers get angry if you don't cite their papers in your
submission,and will happily bounce your paper for that reason alone.

ron

Re: [9fans] need feedback: bibTeX users?

[tlaronde]

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 03:34:38PM +0000, Christian Neukirchen wrote:
> tlaronde@polynum.com writes:
>
> > 3) Is there now a non WEB based implementation?---in this case I could
> > simply forget about it.---
>
> There is for a certain subset, but it's probably not what you are
> looking for:
> http://biblatex-biber.sourceforge.net/

Yep, it relies "on the venerable bibTeX for sorting and generating...".

For the ones interested, the problems are (with BibTeX and for a cursory
look of the 185 pages! source built from chunks taken here and there):

1) It was designed for 7 bits---I will extend to 8 bits clean;

2) It apparently uses/computes size of the resulting entries using hard
coded size of cmr10 letters (for ASCII range). That's perhaps the reason
why the results, for latin1 or latin2, are not optimal (if I understand
what others have said about problems), and why some of the process is
done outside.

Nonetheless, due to popular demand, it seems I will have to include
it... And write a man page. Happy Christmas, Thierry!
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] need feedback: bibTeX users?

[Akshat Kumar]

Does your TeX package include some
LaTeX implementation for Plan 9 as
well?


Best,
ak

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 8:10 AM,  <tlaronde@polynum.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 03:34:38PM +0000, Christian Neukirchen wrote:
>> tlaronde@polynum.com writes:
>>
>> > 3) Is there now a non WEB based implementation?---in this case I could
>> > simply forget about it.---
>>
>> There is for a certain subset, but it's probably not what you are
>> looking for:
>> http://biblatex-biber.sourceforge.net/
>
> Yep, it relies "on the venerable bibTeX for sorting and generating...".
>
> For the ones interested, the problems are (with BibTeX and for a cursory
> look of the 185 pages! source built from chunks taken here and there):
>
> 1) It was designed for 7 bits---I will extend to 8 bits clean;
>
> 2) It apparently uses/computes size of the resulting entries using hard
> coded size of cmr10 letters (for ASCII range). That's perhaps the reason
> why the results, for latin1 or latin2, are not optimal (if I understand
> what others have said about problems), and why some of the process is
> done outside.
>
> Nonetheless, due to popular demand, it seems I will have to include
> it... And write a man page. Happy Christmas, Thierry!
> --
>        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
>                      http://www.kergis.com/
> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
>
>

Re: [9fans] need feedback: bibTeX users?

[tlaronde]

On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 02:50:28PM -0800, Akshat Kumar wrote:
> Does your TeX package include some
> LaTeX implementation for Plan 9 as
> well?

LaTeX is not a program, but a set of macros compiled by TeX (to be
correct: by an instance of TeX called: virtex(1)) to speed things up.
All in all	TeX is a compiler.

The "program" latex(1) is just TeX but using argv[0] to load the
precompiled macros. The same goes for all other set of macros. tex(1) is
just the name of TeX used with D.E. Knuth's set of macros: plain if the
result passes the TRIP test. (which kerTeX passes.)

There are explanations on how to use LaTeX with kerTeX in the README
document (resp. LISEZ.MOI for french speaking people).

Cheers,
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] need feedback: bibTeX users?

[tlaronde]

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 12:06:03PM +0100, tlaronde@polynum.com wrote:
>
> LaTeX is not a program, but a set of macros compiled by TeX (to be
> correct: by an instance of TeX called: virtex(1))

No: to be correct by initex(1) for the dump, and then an instance of
virtex(1) called latex to load the dump (precompiled) and to interpret
the latex document.

--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C