[9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Kenji Okamoto]

My too much todo lists for Plan 9.☺

1) make a new GUI standard for Plan 9
2) grass for Plan 9
3) PostgreSQL for Plan 9
4) USB strage device for Nikon CoolPix 3200
5) USB interface for HP scanner (PSC2550 etc)
6) ...

July 6, 2004 K.Okamoto

Tahahaha...

Kenji

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Matthias Teege]

On Tue Jul  6 07:44:53 GMT 2004, okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:
> 1) make a new GUI standard for Plan 9

What do you missing (most)?
Matthias

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Kenji Okamoto]

> On Tue Jul  6 07:44:53 GMT 2004, okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:
>> 1) make a new GUI standard for Plan 9
>
> What do you missing (most)?

I don't like the programming interface using library call.
If I want to change it, I suppose I may have to change the user interface, too.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[lucio]

> I don't like the programming interface using library call.
> If I want to change it, I suppose I may have to change the user interface, too.

I don't know, you could map the library calls to file I/O, largely
write.  I was thinking that a similar approach would enable Plan 9 to
map X library calls to the native graphics and thus provide a
migration path.  But I haven't given it any serious thought.  And the
number of available X functions is daunting.  But lesstif may at least
illustrate what is possible.

++L

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Steve Simon]

If you where to undertake such a mammoth task, how about an
API mapping for GTK - thus we would get the Gallion browser
and (I think) open-office for free.

And yes, I don't beleive either are beautifull pieces of
software, however they would be very usefull.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Boris Maryshev]

On Tuesday 06 July 2004 13:57, Steve Simon wrote:
> If you where to undertake such a mammoth task, how about an
> API mapping for GTK - thus we would get the Gallion browser
> and (I think) open-office for free.
Galeon and OpenOffice.org for Plan 9? I doubt it... Galeon won't work without
Mozilla by the way.
>
> And yes, I don't beleive either are beautifull pieces of
> software, however they would be very usefull.
If you want to put Plan 9 machine on paperworker's desk, think again!
>
> -Steve
Boris Maryshev
--
You will be Told about it Tomorrow.  Go Home and Prepare Thyself.

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Dave Lukes]

Steve,
I suspect that, if the answer were as simple(?) as converting GTK to 9p
or similar,
someone would have leapt on it by now.

In reality I suspect that if you tried to port OOO or some other
monolithic megalith,
you would almost certainly die the death of a thousand config-files,
fonts, shared libraries, external dependencies
etc. etc. etc.

Cheers,
    DaveL.



Steve Simon wrote:

>If you where to undertake such a mammoth task, how about an
>API mapping for GTK - thus we would get the Gallion browser
>and (I think) open-office for free.
>
>And yes, I don't beleive either are beautifull pieces of
>software, however they would be very usefull.
>
>-Steve
>
>

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[lucio]

> In reality I suspect that if you tried to port OOO or some other
> monolithic megalith,
> you would almost certainly die the death of a thousand config-files,
> fonts, shared libraries, external dependencies
> etc. etc. etc.

Good point.

Some of them shared with Plan 9, mind you, but a thousand thousand
curses nevertheless.

++L

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Noah Evans]

What kind of gui changes are you interested in?

Noah

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:26:59 +0900, Kenji Okamoto
<okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> wrote:
> My too much todo lists for Plan 9.☺
> 
> 1) make a new GUI standard for Plan 9
> 2) grass for Plan 9
> 3) PostgreSQL for Plan 9
> 4) USB strage device for Nikon CoolPix 3200
> 5) USB interface for HP scanner (PSC2550 etc)
> 6) ...
> 
> July 6, 2004 K.Okamoto
> 
> Tahahaha...
> 
> Kenji
> 
>

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Dave Lukes]

 > My too much todo lists for Plan 9.☺

Well done for making a list at least!

 > 2) grass for Plan 9

Why can't plan9 score it's own drugs:-)
Seriously: have you seen
    http://grass.itc.it/grass5/source/REQUIREMENTS.html
?  It's non-trivial.

 > 3) PostgreSQL for Plan 9
I think you need shared memory, and other such weirdness.

 > 4) USB strage device for Nikon CoolPix 3200

Is this generic USB mass-storage?
I know my Fuji works fine with an out-of-the-box linux USB mass-storage 
setup,
which is enough for me: I lose the EXIF stuff, though,
so some day (not soon!) I will just bite the bullet and start porting 
that stuff (yuk),
unless someone else does it first.
(That would also mean I could connect my MP3 player!)

 > 5) USB interface for HP scanner (PSC2550 etc)

I don't know anything about these beasts: there is SANE though:-~.

Cheers,
    Dave.

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[lucio]

>  > My too much todo lists for Plan 9.☺
> 
> Well done for making a list at least!

I hate lists, but mine has, in no particular order and doubtlessly
incomplete:

. SCSI LUs
. Bluetooth
. S/MIME and PEM
. update Binutils and GCC
. PXE features in ip/dhcpd
. SiS 550 graphics
. OHCI and EHCI for USB
. Remote Desktop
. Tcl/Tk/Expect (needs APE updates)
. Graphviz

If anyone needs a compilable copy of dot, neato, twopi, circo and fdp
from Graphviz 1.12 (the most recent version I could get hold of) with
	ps ps2 hpgl pcl mif pic gd gd2 jpg jpeg png wbmp ismap imap cmap cmapx
	vrml vtx mp fig svg svgz dia dot canon plain plain-ext xdot

(not all tested, png gives rise to:

	png: only 24 bit per pixel supported for now [2]

which I have not investigated further)

I have a bunch of mkfiles and a very few patches that will do it.  But
the editors are not ready, of course.  There is also some tidying up
required.

++L

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Kenji Okamoto]

> What kind of gui changes are you interested in?
>
> Noah

Are you back?

Plan 9's most importtant feature is that all the resources
are files.   I'd like to modify it, all the classes of the Plan 9
are the user level file systems.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Kenji Okamoto]

> Why can't plan9 score it's own drugs:-)
> Seriously: have you seen
>     http://grass.itc.it/grass5/source/REQUIREMENTS.html
> ?  It's non-trivial.

Because I expanded the grass4.1 for other planets by myself.
Anyway, I'll check the 5 version, thanks.

>  > 3) PostgreSQL for Plan 9
> I think you need shared memory, and other such weirdness.

Presotto said we have it.

>  > 4) USB strage device for Nikon CoolPix 3200
> 
> Is this generic USB mass-storage?
> I know my Fuji works fine with an out-of-the-box linux USB mass-storage 
> setup,
> which is enough for me: I lose the EXIF stuff, though,
> so some day (not soon!) I will just bite the bullet and start porting 
> that stuff (yuk),
> unless someone else does it first.
> (That would also mean I could connect my MP3 player!)

I expect someone do it soon.☺

>  > 5) USB interface for HP scanner (PSC2550 etc)
> 
> I don't know anything about these beasts: there is SANE though:-~.

No, I have dilemma because I want to do it for a new GUI system.☺
SANE is not for Plan 9 concept, I think.   All the programs using
some special RPC protocol should be rewritten by user level file server
for Plan 9.

Fortunately or unfortunately we have philosophy, not by myself but by the designers
of Plan 9, which makes us not so easy to do something.   However, if there is
no such philosophy in Plan 9 who loves her?

Kenji
.

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[boyd, rounin]

> >  > 3) PostgreSQL for Plan 9
> > I think you need shared memory, and other such weirdness.
>
> Presotto said we have it.

sure do, but there are other ways.  i think it's doable.

done a bit of postgres hacking.  this:

    http://www.insultant.net/blog/doc/ifc.pdf

was done in python and i see no reason why
postgres couldn't be ported (in an intelligent
way) to plan 9.

the python interface to it [psycopg] was very simple.

i know how i'd do it.

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Kenji Okamoto]

> And yes, I don't beleive either are beautifull pieces of
> software, however they would be very usefull.

I agree with Dave's answer, and I think you know it well.
My TODO lists mixes different levels, and it's personal to me.☺

Kenji

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[boyd, rounin]

depending on your USB device you might not be able
to get to a user mode proc fast enough, so (as ron said)
some sort of core kernel + modules may be required.

i would keep in mind that the kernel (like the cheese)
should stand alone; it should boot with as little f/s or
module support as necessary, otherwise you wind up
in lunix hell.

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Noah Evans]

Not quite :) I'm waiting on my friends landline. Right now I'm posting
from a yahoo bb store.

Noah

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:54:08 +0900, Kenji Okamoto
<okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> wrote:
> > What kind of gui changes are you interested in?
> >
> > Noah
>
> Are you back?
>
> Plan 9's most importtant feature is that all the resources
> are files.   I'd like to modify it, all the classes of the Plan 9
> are the user level file systems.
>
> Kenji
>
>

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Kenji Okamoto]

> Right now I'm posting
> from a yahoo bb store.

I havn't known we can do such!
Which one, in Wakayama?

Kenji

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Noah Evans]

Yeah, they have a muryou taiken. I've been taikening for all of my mail lately.

I think the one's in Osaka do too. Nice way for free internet during
business hours.

Noah

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:43:50 +0900, Kenji Okamoto
<okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> wrote:
> > Right now I'm posting
> > from a yahoo bb store.
>
> I havn't known we can do such!
> Which one, in Wakayama?
>
> Kenji
>
>

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Kenji Okamoto]

>  > 4) USB strage device for Nikon CoolPix 3200
> 
> Is this generic USB mass-storage?
> I know my Fuji works fine with an out-of-the-box linux USB mass-storage 
> setup,

Today, I had some time to try this on my Linux 2.4 (RedHat☺).
If I use SD memory attached to SanDisk Smart Media Reader, I can read
images from that SD memory card into my Linux box.    I don't need
any additional procedures for it.   However, if the CoolPix is connected
directly to the USB port, it is not recognized.   Then, Nikon has something
special USB interface other than SDDR device...

Kenji

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>>  > 4) USB strage device for Nikon CoolPix 3200
>> 
>> Is this generic USB mass-storage?
>> I know my Fuji works fine with an out-of-the-box linux USB mass-storage 
>> setup,
> 
> Today, I had some time to try this on my Linux 2.4 (RedHat☺).
> If I use SD memory attached to SanDisk Smart Media Reader, I can read
> images from that SD memory card into my Linux box.    I don't need
> any additional procedures for it.   However, if the CoolPix is connected
> directly to the USB port, it is not recognized.   Then, Nikon has something
> special USB interface other than SDDR device...

Wouldn't this still need a TWAIN driver so something like it?

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Kenji Okamoto]

> Nikon has something
> special USB interface other than SDDR device...

Plan9's usb/usbd reports like this:

term% usb/usbd -vd
enumerate port usb0/0.1
enumerate port usb0/0.2
usbd: usb0/0: port 1 attached
enumerate port usb1/0.1
enumerate port usb1/0.2
usbd: usb1/0: port 1 empty
usbd: usb1/0: port 2 empty
usb0/0.1 status 0x3
enabling port usb0/0.1
usb0/0.1 status now 0x3
usbd: usb0/0: set speed high
usbd: usb0/3: set speed high
device usb0/3: 9.0.0 04e1/0201
	USB version: 1.10
	maximum control packet size: 64
	device release: 1.10
	configurations: 1
		configuration 1: 1 interfaces, 100mA required
		attributes: buspowered selfpowered remotewakeup
		interface 0: 9.0.0
			alternate 0: 1 endpoints
				endpoint 1-in: type Interrupt maxpkt 1 poll 255ms
usbd: usb0/0.1: hub 3 attached
usbd: traversing hub usb0/3
usbd: usb0/0: port 2 empty
usbd: usb0/3: port 1 empty
usbd: usb0/3: port 2 empty
usbd: usb0/3: port 3 attached
usb0/3.3 status 0x110103
enabling port usb0/3.3
usb0/3.3 status now 0x110103
usbd: usb0/0: set speed high
usbd: usb0/2: set speed high
device usb0/2: 0.0.0 04b0/0120
	USB version: 2.00
	maximum control packet size: 8
	device release: 1.00
	manufacturer: NIKON
	product: NIKON DSC E3200
	serial: 000002219337
	configurations: 1
		configuration 1: 1 interfaces, 0mA required
		attributes: buspowered selfpowered
		interface 0: 8.6.80
			alternate 0: 2 endpoints
				endpoint 4-out: type Bulk maxpkt 64 poll 0ms
				endpoint 3-in: type Bulk maxpkt 64 poll 0ms
usbd: usb0/3.3: 2: not hub, high speed
usbd: usb0/3: port 4 empty
usbd: enumeration complete

usbd: usb0/1.1: portstatus: setupreq: setupin: short read (0 < 4)
usbd: usb0/1.2: portstatus: setupreq: setupin: short read (0 < 4)
usbd: detaching usb0/2 from usb0/1.3
usbd: usb0/1.3: portstatus: setupreq: setupin: short read (0 < 4)
usbd: usb0/1.4: portstatus: setupreq: setupin: short read (0 < 4)

Kenji

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Kenji Okamoto]

> Wouldn't this still need a TWAIN driver so something like it?

scsi emulation driver.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Dave Lukes]

Kenji Okamoto wrote:

>>Nikon has something
>>special USB interface other than SDDR device...
>>
Check the camera settings: you may find it supports different modes (PTP?).

Cheers,
    DaveL.

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Charles Forsyth]

TWAIN is a (rather elaborate) software interface, for applications to use,
paired with a device-specific target driver that does the translation
between TWAIN requests and the device's own protocol, and
never the twain shall meet, so knowing TWAIN does not guarantee being
able to talk to any given device.   you still need a driver from the manufacturer,
in general.  thus, for a system such as Plan 9, one might as well design a
reasonable interface to such things.

as a `union' interface, TWAIN is so big and complicated
I'd be somewhat surprised if there were many
devices that implemented most of it directly.

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Kenji Okamoto]

> Kenji Okamoto wrote:
>
>>>Nikon has something
>>>special USB interface other than SDDR device...
>>>
> Check the camera settings: you may find it supports different modes (PTP?).

Mine has two items, PTP and Mass Storage, and I'm selecting Mass Storage.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] TODO lists for Plan 9

[Kenji Okamoto]

4) USB strage device for Nikon CoolPix 3200

I found Richard had solved this already.
He gave me his source, and I tried it to my Nikon digital camera,
and it worked very fine for it.

Now, I'm enjoying Nikon CoolPix 3200 (with 128MB SD card) connected
to our Plan 9 system through USB port.    Thank you very much Richard.

Kenji

[9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

i like memory stick.  do they publish the specs?  can you boot off it?

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Kenji Okamoto]

> i like memory stick.

Why?

Kenji

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> > i like memory stick.
>
> Why?

- you can on stick in it one way
- it has a physical write protect
- 128Mb will give you 90 minutes of MPEG video
- they are small
- they are robust
- i have a buncha vaios

sou, desu ne?

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Kenji Okamoto]

> - i have a buncha vaios

Yes, I agree only this last line.☺
Others are not the special feature of memory stick,
I think.

Do you know such as Clip Drive?
It has the dimention of 70x17x10mm, and up to 512MB.
Furthermore it can be attached direct to PC's USB connecter.
We can now use this type of "memory stick" on Plan 9 by the
work of Richard Miller, I'm considering to use them for my
lecture instead of CDROM on notebook, and of course using 
Plan 9.   I can carry them very easy.☺

Kenji

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Kenji Okamoto]

> Do you know such as Clip Drive?

Or I suppose your memory stck may be recognized
if you use some Multicard Reader/Writer USB interface...

Kenji

[9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

after doing some research on this fools errand it would appear that trying to
boot off it is possible, but they don't want to tell you -- and, no i don't want
help from the lunix loons.

hmm, 'the lunix room' -- it'd probably be a padded cell ...

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[matt]

>
>
>In fact I've still got my Beeb (Model A upgraded to model B so as to
>save 50 quid),  kept for the express purpose of playing Elite,  thought
>the last time I played Elite was on a Beeb emulator.
>
>
http://www.proweb.co.uk/~matt/Elite.jpg


Now if only I'd kept the boxes of Leisure Suit Larry

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Ralph Corderoy]

Hi,

> i never did anything but the most redimentary programming on the 380Z
> though: BBC B's were the thing.  it still amazes me how fast BBC basic
> was, especially when i recall it used 32-bits (floating point by
> default!)  for all its arithmetic.

IIRC, an unadorned variable, e.g. `foo' was a float stored in a non-IEEE
five-byte format.  `foo%' was a 32-bit integer.  `foo$' was a string
with maximum length of 255 bytes.

It was fast, and the best BASIC around at the time.  Largely due to the
skill of its creator, Sophie Wilson.  http://www.sophie.org.uk/  She
later went on to design the ARM chip's instruction set, ARM originally
standing for Acorn RISC Machine.  BBC BASIC written in assembly for the
ARM by Sophie has traditionally been a very good torture test for ARM
instruction set emulators because of its author's in-depth knowledge.

Another reason it was the best BASIC was it had 16K of ROM space all to
itself thanks to the BBC's `sideway ROM' feature which allowed 16K for
the OS, another 16K for the BASIC interpreter, 16K for the floppy disc
filing system, etc.  Each being paged in at the same address in memory
as required.  Most other home computers had, say, 16K for the
OS+BASIC+everything else.

Cheers,

--
Ralph Corderoy.      http://inputplus.co.uk/ralph/     http://troff.org/

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Jack Johnson]

On Fri, 30 May 2003, Derek Fawcus wrote:
> I seem to recall that the Beeb came out a bit later - the 380Z was at
> school when I started,  the Beeb came out what a couple of years later,
> since I also seem to recall wanting a ZX80/ZX81 around that time - must
> have been '80/'81.

The Timex/Sinclair 1000 (the American ZX81) was my first home computer,
must've been '81 or so as well.  I still remember buying my T/S
2068 when all my friends were buying C64s and later realizing I had
probably made a mistake.

My 2068 is still in the garage, next to the BeBox.

Growing up on a T/S 1000 makes me pine for a Jupiter Ace to add to my
collection of "doorstops", as my wife calls them.

-Jack

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Derek Fawcus]

On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 02:55:19PM +0100, rog@vitanuova.com wrote:
> > >Wow! That's almost exactly my history too! Thanks for the link, it
> > >brought back many happy memories. The 380Z had the best
> > >"Software front panel" (in ROM), that I've ever seen, before or since.
> > >
> > just basic for me, I was 10/11 y.o.
> > We only got access to it outside of school hours but luckily I was the
> > only one of the 1000+ pupils interested in doing so.
>
> i also remember the 380Z with fondness (and the "J103" code...
> amazing how these things stay with you!).

You're not the only one,  we also had one at middle school.  We eventually
got a second one.

As I recall it was my first real play about with computers - that and a
PET.

I recall typing in the verion of missile command that was printed in
PCW,  also as I recall someone at school wrote a version on Joust for
it.

> i never did anything but the most redimentary programming on the 380Z
> though: BBC B's were the thing.  it still amazes me how fast BBC basic
> was, especially when i recall it used 32-bits (floating point by
> default!)  for all its arithmetic.

I seem to recall that the Beeb came out a bit later - the 380Z was at
school when I started,  the Beeb came out what a couple of years later,
since I also seem to recall wanting a ZX80/ZX81 around that time - must
have been '80/'81.

Yeah Beeb basic was 'good',  the best bit thought was the built in
assembler!

In fact I've still got my Beeb (Model A upgraded to model B so as to
save 50 quid),  kept for the express purpose of playing Elite,  thought
the last time I played Elite was on a Beeb emulator.

I guess at some point I should dig the beast out of it's box and see
if it still works...

DF

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

nah, the 180B

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Dan Cross]

> i also remember the 380Z with fondness (and the "J103" code...
> amazing how these things stay with you!).

I don't know about that, but when my mother went into labor while
pregnant with me, my father drove her to the hospital in a Datsun
280Z.  Now that was a nice car; the classic definition of sporty, with
a straight six engine and a four speed manual transmission.  I once
rebuilt the clutch for my brother, who held on to it for many years,
but gave it up shortly before he was killed.  Somewhat ironic, that.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[rog]

> >Wow! That's almost exactly my history too! Thanks for the link, it
> >brought back many happy memories. The 380Z had the best
> >"Software front panel" (in ROM), that I've ever seen, before or since.
> >
> just basic for me, I was 10/11 y.o.
> We only got access to it outside of school hours but luckily I was the
> only one of the 1000+ pupils interested in doing so.

i also remember the 380Z with fondness (and the "J103" code...
amazing how these things stay with you!).

i used to use it to produce documents, printed on our new flash
daisywheel, using a program called TexEd AFAIR, which was my first
introduction to troff-like escape sequences.  when i came across troff
on unix later, i felt completely at home!

i never did anything but the most redimentary programming on the 380Z
though: BBC B's were the thing.  it still amazes me how fast BBC basic
was, especially when i recall it used 32-bits (floating point by
default!)  for all its arithmetic.

it was partly the abiding memory of that gloriously simple platform
that made me veer towards plan 9, i think.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[matt]

>
>
>>then I upgraded to a BBC model B (in '83 iirc)
>>I still have it here
>>
slightly ambiguous, it's the BBC I have, not the 380Z,

>>
>>
>
>Wow! That's almost exactly my history too! Thanks for the link, it
>brought back many happy memories. The 380Z had the best
>"Software front panel" (in ROM), that I've ever seen, before or since.
>
just basic for me, I was 10/11 y.o.
We only got access to it outside of school hours but luckily I was the
only one of the 1000+ pupils interested in doing so.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Martin C.Atkins]

On Thu, 29 May 2003 10:12:17 +0100 matt <matt@proweb.co.uk> wrote:
>...
>
> I started in a Research Machines Z80
>
> http://www.zoo.co.uk/~z0001275/rm380z.htm
>
> then I upgraded to a BBC model B (in '83 iirc)
> I still have it here

Wow! That's almost exactly my history too! Thanks for the link, it
brought back many happy memories. The 380Z had the best
"Software front panel" (in ROM), that I've ever seen, before or since.

I've still got an RML 8" floppy which I would love to be able to read
- just to copy everything off for posterity! :-)

Martin
--
Martin C. Atkins			   martin@mca-ltd.com
Mission Critical Applications Ltd, U.K.	   http://www.mca-ltd.com{/,/martin}

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[steve.simon]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 154 bytes --]

Now you are talking,

^Fj103 - jump to rom monitor and then back into the the RML basic via the
restart vector - the 380z equivilent of <del>

-Steve

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 885 bytes --]

From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] memory stick
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:12:17 +0100
Message-ID: <2623575237@snellwilcox.com>

Douglas A. Gwyn wrote:

> boyd, rounin wrote:
>
>>> ... an 11/45 
>>
>> wasn't that sep i&d?  there was something special about the 45
>> and then there was those winchester memory/swap drives.
>
>
> The PDP-11/45 



I started in a Research Machines Z80

http://www.zoo.co.uk/~z0001275/rm380z.htm

then I upgraded to a BBC model B (in '83 iirc)
I still have it here

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[matt]

Douglas A. Gwyn wrote:

> boyd, rounin wrote:
>
>>> ... an 11/45
>>
>> wasn't that sep i&d?  there was something special about the 45
>> and then there was those winchester memory/swap drives.
>
>
> The PDP-11/45



I started in a Research Machines Z80

http://www.zoo.co.uk/~z0001275/rm380z.htm

then I upgraded to a BBC model B (in '83 iirc)
I still have it here

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> @173???g or something similar. Maybe "@"
> was ODTs prompt.

@ may well have been the prompt, but it was 173000g<return>

sounds plausible,  'cos you need some feedback to say that
the machine is ready to talk to you.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> Also I think the 11/45 was the first supporting an FP11
> (fast floating-point coprocessor)

yeah, that sounds right.  i could use google, but that would be too slow.

i'm pretty sure the 11/45 i used to play with had an FP11.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

bwc@coraid.com wrote:
> What about a USB paper tape reader?

I have one on a serial port.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

Donald Brownlee wrote:
> ... an option -- something like, "Console
> ROM ODT" -- where you could just type
> @173???g or something similar. Maybe "@"
> was ODTs prompt. The Supnick simulator may
> require something similar.

Console ODT was near universal in the LSI-11
(Qbus) family.  Unibus PDP-11s more usually
had device-specific boot ROMs on a separate
board.

Supnick's SIMH has a console interface common
across all the computer simulations (HP 2100,
H516, PDP-15, Nova, etc.); it allows one to
not only peek and poke RAM but also to attach
host files as specified device (image)s, etc.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

boyd, rounin wrote:
> i love floppies, let's all revert to the 8" ones (iirc)

About 128KB, would sure help keep kernels small!

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

boyd, rounin wrote:
>>... an 11/45
> wasn't that sep i&d?  there was something special about the 45
> and then there was those winchester memory/swap drives.

The PDP-11/45 (and /50, which had MOS memory instead of core)
was the first PDP-11 family member sporting separate I & D
address spaces.  It had a FastBus interconnect, but that was
transparent to system software.  Also I think the 11/45 was
the first supporting an FP11 (fast floating-point coprocessor)
option.  6th Ed. Unix came in two flavors, 11/40 and 11/45.

The RK05 came in a couple of flavors, fixed vs. removable.
Many of the early Unix distributions were on RK05 cartridge
(removable) disks (list price of a blank RK05 disk was $105);
most if not all of the others were on 9-track 1/2" magtape.

There are still many PDP-11s in operation, as well as usable
emulations in software on the PC and other platforms.  It's
kind of nice to be able to open a window and run a PDP-11 Unix
in it.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Donald Brownlee]

A kind employer once sent me to
some DEC training in Santa Clara,
Augustine Dr., black, glass building,
now, no doubt, vacant or torn down.
Anyway, we must have spent at least
a day learning to boot the beast with
the switches, but the machine at work
had an option -- something like, "Console
ROM ODT" -- where you could just type
@173???g or something similar. Maybe "@"
was ODTs prompt. The Supnick simulator may
require something similar.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> It was sold as a RSTS machine ...

uggh, with with an LA-25 ... 'special'.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> ... an 11/45

wasn't that sep i&d?  there was something special about the 45
and then there was those winchester memory/swap drives.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> ... ls-120 (?)

nah, musta be an LA-120; the standard 11/780 console.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Geoff Collyer]

We're getting into PDP-11 trivia here.  The RK05s I used held exactly
4872 512-byte sectors.  (Remember that the V6 root file system was
4000 blocks, with 872 left over for swap.)

If memory serves, the 11/50 was an 11/45 with a small amount of (for
its time) very fast memory at the bottom of the physical address
space.  It was sold as a RSTS machine and the fast memory was just big
enough to hold the RSTS BASIC interpeter.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> RKs were the 2.5MB cartridge disks and RPs were removable disk packs.

well (as you know) the RK05 was a double sided [2x2.5Mb]
removable cartridge.  i've never seen an 11/50.

don't ever drop a removal pack [RM0[35]]

jjm & i once fixed a broken 32V rm03 root file system with a screwdriver,
tape, ls-120 (?), stand alone fsdb, adb and a 9 track tape :)

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Geoff Collyer]

Okay, for your 11/50 from V6's bproc(8):

     RK (drive 0):
        012700      mov     $rkda,r0
        177412
        005040      clr     -(r0)          / rkda cleared by start
        010040      mov     r0,-(r0)
        012740      mov     $5,-(r0)
        000005
        105710  1:  tstb    (r0)
        002376      bge     1b
        005007      clr     pc

     RP (drive 0)
        012700      mov     $rpmr,r0
        176726
        005040      clr     -(r0)
        005040      clr     -(r0)
        005040      clr     -(r0)
        010040      mov     r0,-(r0)
        012740      mov     $5,-(r0)
        000005
        105710  1:  tstb    (r0)
        002376      bge     1b
        005007      clr     pc

RKs were the 2.5MB cartridge disks and RPs were removable disk packs.

The TM-11 magtape bootstrap was only 6 words and I think I had it
memorised at one time:

     Magtape from load point:
        012700      mov     $mtcma,r0
        172526
        010040      mov     r0,-(r0)       / usr mt addr for wc
        012740      mov     $60003,-(r0)   / read 9-track
        060003
        000777      br      .              / loop; now halt and start at 0

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[bwc]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 110 bytes --]

Paper tape was more fun--all that chad, flinging old code!

What about a USB paper tape reader?

 Brantley

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1816 bytes --]

From: "boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] memory stick
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:31:43 +0200
Message-ID: <00ea01c32560$89916080$e3944251@insultant.net>

i love floppies, let's all revert to the 8" ones (iirc)

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

i love floppies, let's all revert to the 8" ones (iirc)

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Andrew]

i keep them small, as small as I can manage, but they load off a floppy
faster when they are compressed since I can decompress faster than i
can transfer from a floppy.

The only kernel that I actually need to compress is the klunky fossil
kernel which needs to have rc and all sorts of other things built
in. Soon though I will make it boot into kfs instead of something (now
that I have many small hard drives) and that process will be unnecesary.

On Wed, May 28, 2003 at 11:17:55PM +0200, boyd, rounin wrote:
> > with compressed kernels it really isnt that bad
>
> if you need to compress the kernel, your kernel is _way_ too big.
>
> kernel = small, no?
>
>

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> with compressed kernels it really isnt that bad

if you need to compress the kernel, your kernel is _way_ too big.

kernel = small, no?

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Andrew]

On Wed, May 28, 2003 at 10:03:50PM +0200, boyd, rounin wrote:
> > I do something similiar with bootable floppy disks, just stick one in
> > and assuming its on the network and has supported hardware off it goes.
>
> did that with 2nd ed, but i'm not gonna wait that long -- sheesh ...
>
> gawd, we'd be better off keying the in the boot loader with the 11/70's
> front panel ...
>
>

id like to see you key in the boot loader in under 30 seconds.
with compressed kernels it really isnt that bad, and when you lack
hard drives to boot from you dont have much coice.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

i can remember that on the console of an 11/34 it was:

   173000g<return>

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[ron minnich]

On Wed, 28 May 2003, boyd, rounin wrote:

> gawd, we'd be better off keying the in the boot loader with the 11/70's
> front panel ...


I've got an 11/50 panel here in the office if you can tell me the
sequence.

ron

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> I do something similiar with bootable floppy disks, just stick one in
> and assuming its on the network and has supported hardware off it goes.

did that with 2nd ed, but i'm not gonna wait that long -- sheesh ...

gawd, we'd be better off keying the in the boot loader with the 11/70's
front panel ...

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> ya. very cool. we're doing similar with the CF stuff.

gimme a few secs ad i'll see what i can come up with :)

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Jason Gurtz]

Andrew wrote:

> I do something similiar with bootable floppy disks, just stick one in
> and assuming its on the network and has supported hardware off it goes.

This reminds me that I've seen floppy disk adapters that hold a
CF/SD/MM/Mem stick cards.

Might be usefull for machines that have no card reader attached or
helping that legendary floppy reliablity that I've come to love so much.

Cheers,

~Jason

--

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Andrew]

On Wed, 28 May 2003, boyd, rounin wrote:

> i just put the whole [non tex] dist on it and have it booted [from disk]
> on my 600 series VAIO.  needs a big of tinkering, but booting
> _straight_ off the memory stick on a randomly chosen machine
> would be a _cool thing_;  walk up to machine, jam in memory
> stick and boot plan 9 :)

I do something similiar with bootable floppy disks, just stick one in
and assuming its on the network and has supported hardware off it goes.

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[ron minnich]

On Wed, 28 May 2003, boyd, rounin wrote:

> i just put the whole [non tex] dist on it and have it booted [from disk]
> on my 600 series VAIO.  needs a big of tinkering, but booting
> _straight_ off the memory stick on a randomly chosen machine
> would be a _cool thing_;  walk up to machine, jam in memory
> stick and boot plan 9 :)

ya. very cool. we're doing similar with the CF stuff.

Hey, I found out what happens when you mess up the CMOS NVRAM with bad
keys etc. You have to zero CMOS, and then to make it a CPU again you have
to have good keys. No other option. That's good.

ron

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> put the whole disk on it.

i just put the whole [non tex] dist on it and have it booted [from disk]
on my 600 series VAIO.  needs a big of tinkering, but booting
_straight_ off the memory stick on a randomly chosen machine
would be a _cool thing_;  walk up to machine, jam in memory
stick and boot plan 9 :)

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

> put the whole disk on it.

well they only had 128Mb, so i just had to buy that one :)

not exactly an RL-02 ...

Re: [9fans] memory stick

[Russ Cox]

put the whole disk on it.

[9fans] memory stick

[boyd, rounin]

i have some mad plan to put the nvram on it for my cpu/auth/fs/etc server.

any suggestions/objections?