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From: Ronnie Brown <ronnie.profbrown@btinternet.com>
To: André <joyal.andre@uqam.ca>
Subject: Re: terminology
Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 22:43:15 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <E1OGBZs-0002XA-L5@mailserv.mta.ca> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <B3C24EA955FF0C4EA14658997CD3E25E370F5827@CAHIER.gst.uqam.ca>

Dear André

There seems to me to be a tremendous amount of great work going on 
higher category theory, but when you write

-----------------------------------------------------
One lies in the fact that equivalent categories are considered to be the 
"same", 

even if [or] when they are not isomorphic.
-----------------------------------------

this seems to go against the grain of what I have been doing in groupoids  since I decided they were valuable in about 1965! It sounds like the old  canard `groupoids reduce to groups', so there must be some confusion in my mind on what you are saying. 

One thing that took me a while to realise was that it was not enough to study the fundamental groupoid or a fundamental group but one needed to consider intermediate cases, namely the fundamental groupoid on a set of base points chosen according to the geometry at hand. (`Algebraic topology'  has not understood this it seems.) The vertices of a groupoid give a spatial component to group theory, a kind of geography, and sometimes, even often, that is needed to model the geometry.  So for example it is useful  to replace the trefoil group which has 2 generators x,y and one relation  x^2=y^3 by the trefoil groupoid which is the double mapping cylinder (homotopy pushout) in groupoids of the two maps Z \to Z, given by squaring  and cubing. So we add an extra groupoid generator iota on different vertices which turns x^2 into y^3. This corresponds to the double mapping construction to give a CW-complex. 

So groupoids give the strict algebra of keeping the information which makes things the same. 

In higher dimensions we want not just commutative diagrams but control of  the ways of filling these diagrams. If the diagram is a pentagon (as we all know does happen) I would want a pentagon as part of the geometry, and the only question is how to deal with multiple compositions of various such objects, and that was the aim of David Jones thesis on Polyhedral T-complexes. The point is that the pieces to be composable have to be all faces but one of a general poyhedral `horn', the process of composing them  is the filler of the horn, and the composite of the pieces  is the remaining face of the filler. (It was not attempted to do this in category rather than groupoid terms, and that is still a mystery!) So you can see I have long been very sympathetic to using the Kan condition for describing algebraic or structural objects, but find the simplicial approach too awkward (for me, of course; I found the way Nick Ashley coped with that was amazing). 

I do not want to consider equivalent groupoids the same, as I may want to  use the spatial components to describe how they might be glued together.  It is partly the old tag of not throwing away information till the last possible moment. 

On the other hand, some computations are best done at the strict level, rather than the weak one. I mention here the rotations in my paper:

``Higher dimensional group theory'', in {\em Low dimensional topology},  London Math Soc. Lecture Note Series 48 (ed. R. Brown and T.L.  Thickstun, Cambridge University Press, 1982), pp. 215-238.

(see also a fuller exposition in the new book on Nonabelian algebraic topology), which would seem to be more difficult to write out at the lax level. The fact that the strict calculations imply the existence of certain homotopies is part of the interest. 

So in the work with Higgins a Kan fibration - from the singular filtered complex of a filtered space to the quotient to give a strict structure - ties in the lax and the strict in a necessary way for the theory and calculations. 

I am really searching for points of agreement. 

Best regards

Ronnie


[For admin and other information see: http://www.mta.ca/~cat-dist/ ]


  parent reply	other threads:[~2010-05-22 21:43 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 83+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2010-05-19 10:38 Re terminology: Ronnie Brown
2010-05-20  7:58 ` soloviev
2010-05-20 19:53   ` terminology Eduardo J. Dubuc
2010-05-20 22:15   ` Re terminology: Joyal, Andre
2010-05-20 11:58 ` Urs Schreiber
     [not found] ` <AANLkTikre9x4Qikw0mqOl1qZs9DDSkcBu3CXWA05OTQT@mail.gmail.com>
2010-05-21 17:00   ` Ronnie Brown
2010-05-22 19:40     ` Joyal, André
     [not found]     ` <B3C24EA955FF0C4EA14658997CD3E25E370F5827@CAHIER.gst.uqam.ca>
2010-05-22 21:43       ` Ronnie Brown [this message]
     [not found]       ` <4BF84FF3.7060806@btinternet.com>
2010-05-22 22:44         ` terminology Joyal, André
2010-05-23 15:39           ` terminology Colin McLarty
2010-05-24 13:42             ` equivalence terminology Paul Taylor
2010-05-24 15:53             ` we do meet isomorphisms of categories Marco Grandis
2010-05-26 15:21               ` Toby Bartels
2010-05-27  9:29               ` Prof. Peter Johnstone
     [not found]               ` <alpine.LRH.2.00.1005271007240.11352@siskin.dpmms.cam.ac.uk>
2010-05-27 10:08                 ` Marco Grandis
2010-05-30 12:05                   ` Joyal, André
2010-05-24 18:04             ` terminology Vaughan Pratt
2010-05-26  3:08               ` terminology Toby Bartels
2010-05-24 23:06             ` Equality again Joyal, André
2010-05-26  2:27               ` Patrik Eklund
2010-05-27 11:30               ` Prof. Peter Johnstone
2010-06-01  6:36                 ` Marco Grandis
2010-06-01 14:38                   ` Joyal, André
2010-05-25 14:08             ` terminology John Baez
2010-05-25 19:39               ` terminology Colin McLarty
2010-05-29 21:47                 ` terminology Toby Bartels
2010-05-30 19:15                   ` terminology Thorsten Altenkirch
     [not found]                   ` <A46C7965-B4E7-42E6-AE97-6C1D930AC878@cs.nott.ac.uk>
2010-05-30 20:51                     ` terminology Toby Bartels
2010-06-01  7:39                       ` terminology Thorsten Altenkirch
2010-06-01 13:33                         ` terminology Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
     [not found]                       ` <7BF50141-7775-4D3C-A4AF-D543891666B9@cs.nott.ac.uk>
2010-06-01 18:22                         ` terminology Toby Bartels
2010-05-26  8:03             ` terminology Reinhard Boerger
     [not found] ` <4BF6BC2C.2000606@btinternet.com>
2010-05-21 18:48   ` Re terminology: Urs Schreiber
     [not found] ` <AANLkTilG69hcX7ZV8zrLpQ_nf1pCmyktsnuE0RyJtQYF@mail.gmail.com>
2010-05-26  8:28   ` terminology John Baez
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2017-02-11 20:42 Terminology Fred E.J. Linton
2017-02-14  8:48 ` Terminology Steve Vickers
     [not found] ` <02568D97-0A72-4CA8-8900-BDE11E890890@cs.bham.ac.uk>
2017-02-14  9:39   ` Terminology Jean Benabou
2017-02-09 22:03 Terminology Andrée Ehresmann
2017-02-08  8:03 Terminology Jean Benabou
2017-02-08 16:34 ` Terminology Jirí Adámek
2017-02-10  1:42   ` Terminology George Janelidze
2017-02-08 21:40 ` Terminology Carsten Führmann
2017-02-09 11:31 ` Terminology Thomas Streicher
     [not found] ` <20170208180636.18346065.28939.42961@rbccm.com>
2017-02-09 16:38   ` Terminology Jean Benabou
2017-02-11 15:07     ` Terminology Steve Vickers
2013-05-02  3:57 Terminology Fred E.J. Linton
2013-05-02  3:57 Terminology Fred E.J. Linton
2013-05-03 11:53 ` Terminology Robert Dawson
2013-04-30  1:20 Terminology Fred E.J. Linton
2013-04-24 17:13 Terminology Jean Bénabou
2013-04-24 23:04 ` Terminology David Roberts
2013-04-27 13:08 ` Terminology Thomas Streicher
     [not found] ` <20130427130857.GC16801@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>
2013-04-28  3:49   ` Terminology Jean Bénabou
2013-04-28 22:47     ` Terminology Olivier Gerard
     [not found] ` <557435A6-4568-4012-8C63-E031931F41FB@wanadoo.fr>
2013-04-28 14:17   ` Terminology Thomas Streicher
2013-04-29 20:05     ` Terminology Toby Bartels
2013-04-30  0:58       ` Terminology Peter May
2010-09-29  2:03 terminology Todd Trimble
2010-09-28  4:38 terminology Eduardo J. Dubuc
2010-05-27 18:31 terminology Colin McLarty
2010-05-16 12:44 terminology Peter Selinger
2010-05-13 17:17 bilax_monoidal_functors Michael Shulman
2010-05-14 14:43 ` terminology (was: bilax_monoidal_functors) Peter Selinger
2010-05-15 19:52   ` terminology Toby Bartels
2010-05-08  3:27 RE : bilax monoidal functors John Baez
2010-05-10 18:16 ` bilax_monoidal_functors?= John Baez
2010-05-11  8:28   ` bilax_monoidal_functors?= Michael Batanin
2010-05-12  3:02     ` bilax_monoidal_functors?= Toby Bartels
2010-05-13 23:09       ` bilax_monoidal_functors?= Michael Batanin
2010-05-15 16:05         ` terminology Joyal, André
2007-01-27 17:06 terminology wlawvere
2007-01-26 23:30 terminology Eduardo Dubuc
2005-12-30  1:16 terminology vs27
2005-12-29 19:09 terminology Nikita Danilov
2005-12-10  3:51 Terminology jean benabou
2005-12-21 20:04 ` Terminology Eduardo Dubuc
2005-12-26 19:47   ` terminology Vaughan Pratt
2005-12-29 23:17     ` terminology Eduardo Dubuc
2006-01-04 14:59       ` terminology Eduardo Dubuc
2003-10-17 15:19 terminology Marco Grandis
2003-10-16 21:39 terminology James Stasheff
2001-04-09 11:06 Terminology Krzysztof Worytkiewicz
2000-12-14  6:17 Terminology Max Kelly
     [not found] <3a35cdd73a39f901@amyris.wanadoo.fr>
2000-12-13 11:10 ` Terminology Dr. P.T. Johnstone
2000-12-13  1:17 Terminology Steve Lack
2000-12-12  8:19 Terminology Jean Benabou
2000-01-28 12:02 terminology James Stasheff
2000-01-28  9:57 terminology Marco Grandis
2000-01-27 19:28 terminology James Stasheff
2000-01-27 21:04 ` terminology Paul Glenn

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