[COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose

[COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose

[clemc]

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We really should take this off-list if you want to continue the discussion
as it has little to do with simh and more history (so I'm CCing the TUHS
COFF list.  I'll include simh for now, but if you reply please kill the
simh part).

 An Eagle or Eagle-II was a whole lot lighter (and physically smaller) than
an RP06 or RP07 (or an RM series drive for that matter). It is interesting
to hear you had problems with the Eagles.   They were generally considered
the best/most reliable of the day.   The SI controller on the Vax was less
so, although many of us in the UNIX community used them.

FWIW: I was accused of jinxing the 19" SMD Ampex drive by Masscomp's field
service team.   The story is we could never make the Ampex drives work
reliably at UCB (they were cheaper in bytes/$ than the Eagles at the
time).   When I was being recruited to Masscomp as I was leaving UCB, they
were trying to use Ampex as their high-end SMD drive with the Xylogic 440
controller, but had not (yet) had a failure. [Xylogic, like Masscomp, was
ex-DEC folks]. Anyway, I had mentioned @ UCB we had given up on the Ampex
drive on our Vaxen, and within 2 weeks of my starting to work darned near
all of them that Masscomp owned had failed.

PC (Paul Cantrell), tjt and I did eventually make them work but only after
we got Xylogic to redesign the 440 to be the 450 controllers and PC spend
hours with the microcode team on the error recovery logic.  Funny, the
450/Eagle combination (and later Xylogic 472 tape)  became the de rigor in
the UNIX community.

BTW: if Mark and the simh team is to ever to create a solid
Sun/Masscomp/Apollo simulator, they will need to emulate the Xylogic
controller family.   One more thing for the forever growing list of things
I'd like to do when I retire, but I think I still have the engineering
specs for them and PC and tjt are still to be found ;-)

On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 9:19 AM Tim Wilkinson <tjw at twsoft.co.uk> wrote:

> Back in 85 have had applications to purchase a 785 – 780-750-730 then 725
> rejected, we were fortunately given a 750 by a sister company who were
> upgrading to a 785, but they took their disks. So we had to buy for
> ourselves.
>
>
>
> To keep the bean counter happy we went for a System Industries controller
> and 4 super Eagles.
>
>
>
> But back then there was a problem with the eagles and all 4 had to be
> swapped out 4 times.
>
>
>
> Carrying them up stairs to the computer room was not fun. The platter size
> may have been reduced. But the weight!!!
>
>
>
> Tim
>
> *From:* Simh [mailto:simh-bounces at trailing-edge.com] *On Behalf Of *Clem
> Cole
> *Sent:* 01 July 2019 14:08
> *To:* Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org>
> *Cc:* SIMH <simh at trailing-edge.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose
>
>
>
> I can not say why it followed that naming convention, but it did.   The
> drives of that day were referred to as 19" technology since that's how they
> mounted.   FWIW:   Most manufacturers at the time used the same platter
> size as the original IBM 1311 (which as you pointed out was 14"), but not
> everyone, for instance, the Fujitsu Eagle used 10.5-inch platter.   FWIW:
> I answered a bunch of this in:
> https://www.quora.com/How-do-hard-drives-get-smaller-and-smaller-in-size-bigger-and-bigger-in-capacity-every-year-when-the-fundamental-physical-processes-behind-them-do-not-change/answer/Clem-Cole
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 8:52 AM Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 7:32 AM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
> 19” form factor for the disks drive fir the space in the 19” relay rack.
> You’re right the platters themselves were smaller.  The disks were referred
> too by the mechanical FF.  19, 8, 5.25 etc.
>
>
>
> But, 8" hard drives have 8" platters, and 5.25" hard drives have 5.25"
> platters. The casing on a the 5.25" drive in front of me is almost 6" wide.
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Virus-free.
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>
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[COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose

[lm]

On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 09:49:42AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
>  An Eagle or Eagle-II was a whole lot lighter (and physically smaller) than
> an RP06 or RP07 (or an RM series drive for that matter). It is interesting
> to hear you had problems with the Eagles.   They were generally considered
> the best/most reliable of the day.   The SI controller on the Vax was less
> so, although many of us in the UNIX community used them.

We ran Eagles on the Masscomps we had at Geophysics.  Nothing but good
things to say about those drives.

[COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose

[jpl.jpl]

There were eagles, and then there were super-eagles. Our experience with
eagles was great, and we were eager to try the (larger) super-eagles. We
soaked them for a month or so, then put them into production use.
Whereupon, they started dropping like flies. It turns out the glue they
used to attach the platters to the spindle slowly crept out over time,
eventually coming to grief with a read/write head. This experience was
wide-spread, and seriously damaged Fujitsu's reputation.

On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:11 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 09:49:42AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> >  An Eagle or Eagle-II was a whole lot lighter (and physically smaller)
> than
> > an RP06 or RP07 (or an RM series drive for that matter). It is
> interesting
> > to hear you had problems with the Eagles.   They were generally
> considered
> > the best/most reliable of the day.   The SI controller on the Vax was
> less
> > so, although many of us in the UNIX community used them.
>
> We ran Eagles on the Masscomps we had at Geophysics.  Nothing but good
> things to say about those drives.
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
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[COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose

[clemc]

Yeah - although we discovered that the better the controller microcode was
at handling errors, the better life was for the user, disk vendor, and
system manufacturer.   On the VAX, the SI controller was not extremely
forgiving and I had left that world. I wonder if some of the super eagle's
issues were that the controller did not gracefully handle drive errors.
IIRC Emulex's SMI and Unibus controllers tended to be smarter than SI's.
 FWIW: Once Xylogic did the 45x series for the Multibus/later VME with *the
microcode solid* and Unix drivers got written to handle the errors
returned, my experiences were ( as Larry said ) we had few problems with
any of the SMD disks, even the Ampex, at either Masscomp or Stellar.

Truth is by then we had started to concentrate on ESDI 5.25" FF disks from
the 19" and 8" SMD technologies (using a cheap SCSI to ESDI controller).
But it was a little of "you get what you pay for" problem.   The new
controllers for the smaller disks cost a lot less  (Xylogic VME/Multibus
*vs.* SMS SCSI); so we were starting over with the SMS folks to educate
them.  Apollo had been SMS's primary partner (did you ever wonder why they
supported at 1056 byte block as one of their native block sizes), but to
the SMS's folks credit they picked up the ideas of good error recovery
reasonable fast.

Clem

PS The thing I fear lost to history was PC's code for the Masscomp
formatter/tester/exerciser for the 45x Series. It was an amazing piece of
work.  I think we still have the OS sources kicking around, but the
diagnostic system was of less interest I fear.

On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 7:47 AM John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl at gmail.com> wrote:

> There were eagles, and then there were super-eagles. Our experience with
> eagles was great, and we were eager to try the (larger) super-eagles. We
> soaked them for a month or so, then put them into production use.
> Whereupon, they started dropping like flies. It turns out the glue they
> used to attach the platters to the spindle slowly crept out over time,
> eventually coming to grief with a read/write head. This experience was
> wide-spread, and seriously damaged Fujitsu's reputation.
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:11 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 09:49:42AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
>> >  An Eagle or Eagle-II was a whole lot lighter (and physically smaller)
>> than
>> > an RP06 or RP07 (or an RM series drive for that matter). It is
>> interesting
>> > to hear you had problems with the Eagles.   They were generally
>> considered
>> > the best/most reliable of the day.   The SI controller on the Vax was
>> less
>> > so, although many of us in the UNIX community used them.
>>
>> We ran Eagles on the Masscomps we had at Geophysics.  Nothing but good
>> things to say about those drives.
>> _______________________________________________
>> COFF mailing list
>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>>
>
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[COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose

[tjw]

 

Interesting that it was the platter bonding. The explanation SI gave us (They sold us the super Eagles along with their controller) was that it was a lubricant. So I had assumed a bearing seal fail.

 

Anyway after about 4 swap outs and a lot of lifting they lasted a further 15 years until we knocked down the office with the original 750 and its big brother an 8810 still in the computer room as all the resellers wanted certificates of continuing maintenance that would have cost more than they were willing to pay for those vaxs.

 

From: John P. Linderman [mailto:jpl.jpl at gmail.com] 
Sent: 02 July 2019 12:47
To: Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
Cc: Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>; Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org>; COFF <coff at minnie.tuhs.org>; Tim Wilkinson <tjw at twsoft.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose

 

There were eagles, and then there were super-eagles. Our experience with eagles was great, and we were eager to try the (larger) super-eagles. We soaked them for a month or so, then put them into production use. Whereupon, they started dropping like flies. It turns out the glue they used to attach the platters to the spindle slowly crept out over time, eventually coming to grief with a read/write head. This experience was wide-spread, and seriously damaged Fujitsu's reputation.

 

On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:11 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com <mailto:lm at mcvoy.com> > wrote:

On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 09:49:42AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
>  An Eagle or Eagle-II was a whole lot lighter (and physically smaller) than
> an RP06 or RP07 (or an RM series drive for that matter). It is interesting
> to hear you had problems with the Eagles.   They were generally considered
> the best/most reliable of the day.   The SI controller on the Vax was less
> so, although many of us in the UNIX community used them.

We ran Eagles on the Masscomps we had at Geophysics.  Nothing but good
things to say about those drives.
_______________________________________________
COFF mailing list
COFF at minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:COFF at minnie.tuhs.org> 
https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff



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[COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose

[jpl.jpl]

I don't have authoritative info on the cause, I'm just repeating what I
heard. A highly viscous substance like glue would explain why it took so
long to fail. In any event, it was nasty. Worked perfectly long enough to
build confidence, then failed spectacularly. It was widespread. I entered a
"Sysadmin Horror Story" contest at a USENIX (San Diego?), and won with a
"short story" entry: *Supereagles*. I still have the shark's tooth trophy.

On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 9:41 AM Tim Wilkinson <tjw at twsoft.co.uk> wrote:

>
>
> Interesting that it was the platter bonding. The explanation SI gave us
> (They sold us the super Eagles along with their controller) was that it was
> a lubricant. So I had assumed a bearing seal fail.
>
>
>
> Anyway after about 4 swap outs and a lot of lifting they lasted a further
> 15 years until we knocked down the office with the original 750 and its big
> brother an 8810 still in the computer room as all the resellers wanted
> certificates of continuing maintenance that would have cost more than they
> were willing to pay for those vaxs.
>
>
>
> *From:* John P. Linderman [mailto:jpl.jpl at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 02 July 2019 12:47
> *To:* Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
> *Cc:* Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>; Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org>;
> COFF <coff at minnie.tuhs.org>; Tim Wilkinson <tjw at twsoft.co.uk>
> *Subject:* Re: [COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose
>
>
>
> There were eagles, and then there were super-eagles. Our experience with
> eagles was great, and we were eager to try the (larger) super-eagles. We
> soaked them for a month or so, then put them into production use.
> Whereupon, they started dropping like flies. It turns out the glue they
> used to attach the platters to the spindle slowly crept out over time,
> eventually coming to grief with a read/write head. This experience was
> wide-spread, and seriously damaged Fujitsu's reputation.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:11 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 09:49:42AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> >  An Eagle or Eagle-II was a whole lot lighter (and physically smaller)
> than
> > an RP06 or RP07 (or an RM series drive for that matter). It is
> interesting
> > to hear you had problems with the Eagles.   They were generally
> considered
> > the best/most reliable of the day.   The SI controller on the Vax was
> less
> > so, although many of us in the UNIX community used them.
>
> We ran Eagles on the Masscomps we had at Geophysics.  Nothing but good
> things to say about those drives.
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
> <#m_-7814325232288781299_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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[COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose

[rp]

if you still have that story, I'd love to hear it. A quick search didn't
turn up anything except that Super Eagles is a Nigerian football team.


On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 12:59 PM John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't have authoritative info on the cause, I'm just repeating what I
> heard. A highly viscous substance like glue would explain why it took so
> long to fail. In any event, it was nasty. Worked perfectly long enough to
> build confidence, then failed spectacularly. It was widespread. I entered a
> "Sysadmin Horror Story" contest at a USENIX (San Diego?), and won with a
> "short story" entry: *Supereagles*. I still have the shark's tooth trophy.
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 9:41 AM Tim Wilkinson <tjw at twsoft.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Interesting that it was the platter bonding. The explanation SI gave us
>> (They sold us the super Eagles along with their controller) was that it was
>> a lubricant. So I had assumed a bearing seal fail.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway after about 4 swap outs and a lot of lifting they lasted a further
>> 15 years until we knocked down the office with the original 750 and its big
>> brother an 8810 still in the computer room as all the resellers wanted
>> certificates of continuing maintenance that would have cost more than they
>> were willing to pay for those vaxs.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* John P. Linderman [mailto:jpl.jpl at gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* 02 July 2019 12:47
>> *To:* Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
>> *Cc:* Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>; Patrick Finnegan <
>> pat at computer-refuge.org>; COFF <coff at minnie.tuhs.org>; Tim Wilkinson <
>> tjw at twsoft.co.uk>
>> *Subject:* Re: [COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose
>>
>>
>>
>> There were eagles, and then there were super-eagles. Our experience with
>> eagles was great, and we were eager to try the (larger) super-eagles. We
>> soaked them for a month or so, then put them into production use.
>> Whereupon, they started dropping like flies. It turns out the glue they
>> used to attach the platters to the spindle slowly crept out over time,
>> eventually coming to grief with a read/write head. This experience was
>> wide-spread, and seriously damaged Fujitsu's reputation.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:11 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 09:49:42AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
>> >  An Eagle or Eagle-II was a whole lot lighter (and physically smaller)
>> than
>> > an RP06 or RP07 (or an RM series drive for that matter). It is
>> interesting
>> > to hear you had problems with the Eagles.   They were generally
>> considered
>> > the best/most reliable of the day.   The SI controller on the Vax was
>> less
>> > so, although many of us in the UNIX community used them.
>>
>> We ran Eagles on the Masscomps we had at Geophysics.  Nothing but good
>> things to say about those drives.
>> _______________________________________________
>> COFF mailing list
>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>>
>>
>>
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Virus-free.
>> www.avast.com
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>> <#m_-5102461650516400670_m_-7814325232288781299_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
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[COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose

[jpl.jpl]

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The best I could find googling *fujitsu super eagle "glue"* was

Introduction to redundant arrays of inexpensive disks ... - IEEE Xplore
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel2/231/7454/00301912.pdf
<https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel2/231/7454/00301912.pdf>
by DA Patterson - ‎1989 - ‎Cited by 324
<https://scholar.google.com/scholar?biw=1544&bih=764&um=1&ie=UTF-8&lr&cites=11507519054000724161>
-
‎Related articles
<https://scholar.google.com/scholar?biw=1544&bih=764&um=1&ie=UTF-8&lr&q=related:wZjAM5zrsp8u3M:scholar.google.com/>
computers, the Fujitsu M2361A "Super Eagle" disk for minicomputers, .....
assembly, with this gluedissolving after the disks had been in the field
for 18 months.

Tantalizing, but I couldn't dig further, perhaps because I'm not a member
of IEEE.

On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 5:34 PM Rico Pajarola <rp at servium.ch> wrote:

> if you still have that story, I'd love to hear it. A quick search didn't
> turn up anything except that Super Eagles is a Nigerian football team.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 12:59 PM John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I don't have authoritative info on the cause, I'm just repeating what I
>> heard. A highly viscous substance like glue would explain why it took so
>> long to fail. In any event, it was nasty. Worked perfectly long enough to
>> build confidence, then failed spectacularly. It was widespread. I entered a
>> "Sysadmin Horror Story" contest at a USENIX (San Diego?), and won with a
>> "short story" entry: *Supereagles*. I still have the shark's tooth
>> trophy.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 9:41 AM Tim Wilkinson <tjw at twsoft.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting that it was the platter bonding. The explanation SI gave us
>>> (They sold us the super Eagles along with their controller) was that it was
>>> a lubricant. So I had assumed a bearing seal fail.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyway after about 4 swap outs and a lot of lifting they lasted a
>>> further 15 years until we knocked down the office with the original 750 and
>>> its big brother an 8810 still in the computer room as all the resellers
>>> wanted certificates of continuing maintenance that would have cost more
>>> than they were willing to pay for those vaxs.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* John P. Linderman [mailto:jpl.jpl at gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* 02 July 2019 12:47
>>> *To:* Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
>>> *Cc:* Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>; Patrick Finnegan <
>>> pat at computer-refuge.org>; COFF <coff at minnie.tuhs.org>; Tim Wilkinson <
>>> tjw at twsoft.co.uk>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There were eagles, and then there were super-eagles. Our experience with
>>> eagles was great, and we were eager to try the (larger) super-eagles. We
>>> soaked them for a month or so, then put them into production use.
>>> Whereupon, they started dropping like flies. It turns out the glue they
>>> used to attach the platters to the spindle slowly crept out over time,
>>> eventually coming to grief with a read/write head. This experience was
>>> wide-spread, and seriously damaged Fujitsu's reputation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:11 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 09:49:42AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
>>> >  An Eagle or Eagle-II was a whole lot lighter (and physically smaller)
>>> than
>>> > an RP06 or RP07 (or an RM series drive for that matter). It is
>>> interesting
>>> > to hear you had problems with the Eagles.   They were generally
>>> considered
>>> > the best/most reliable of the day.   The SI controller on the Vax was
>>> less
>>> > so, although many of us in the UNIX community used them.
>>>
>>> We ran Eagles on the Masscomps we had at Geophysics.  Nothing but good
>>> things to say about those drives.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> COFF mailing list
>>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Virus-free.
>>> www.avast.com
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>>> <#m_1751084755802734138_m_-5102461650516400670_m_-7814325232288781299_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> COFF mailing list
>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>>
>
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[COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose

[clemc]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
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John - not much there:

Introduction to redundant arrays of inexpensive disks (RAID)
From Page 112, Bottom of 1st column continued to the top of second the text
is:

While the magnetic disk industry has made little progress in improving
speed of disks, it has significantly reduced the size of disks. The
personal computer industry has created a market for 5.25 and 3.5 inch
drives, reducing the cost per disk system as well as the traditional
lowering of cost per megabyte. Table I below compares the top-of-the-line
IBM 3380 model AK4 mainframe disk, Fujitsu M2361A "Super Eagle"
minicomputer disk, Impress/CDC Wren-IV workstation disk, and the
Conner Peripherals
CP 3100 personal computer disk.

From Page 116, Second column the text is;

One problem that several magnetic disk manufacturers have mentioned is what
we would call the "Pinto Effect;" a mistake is made in manufacturing
process that is so disastrous that the disk manufacturer will recall all
affected disks and replace them. The common theme is that the mistake is
uncovered after the disks have been in the field for several months and the
disks all fail within a short time of one another. One example was a
manufacturer who glued together the two halves of an head-disk assembly,
with this glue dissolving after the disks had been in the field for 18
months. Another example was that a new bateriacide used in an air filter
interacted with the disk surface so that many failures occurred six months
later. A common cause of the Pinto Effect is that a supplier will change
some component as a cost cutting measure without notifying the disk
manufacturer, and disastrous consequences occur due to unforeseen
interactions.

Although we desperately need real data on disk failures, we are performing
studies of using models to estimate the impact of the Pinto Effect on RAID
reliability.

On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 2:02 PM John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl at gmail.com> wrote:

> The best I could find googling *fujitsu super eagle "glue"* was
>
> Introduction to redundant arrays of inexpensive disks ... - IEEE Xplore
> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel2/231/7454/00301912.pdf
> <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel2/231/7454/00301912.pdf>
> by DA Patterson - ‎1989 - ‎Cited by 324
> <https://scholar.google.com/scholar?biw=1544&bih=764&um=1&ie=UTF-8&lr&cites=11507519054000724161> -
> ‎Related articles
> <https://scholar.google.com/scholar?biw=1544&bih=764&um=1&ie=UTF-8&lr&q=related:wZjAM5zrsp8u3M:scholar.google.com/>
> computers, the Fujitsu M2361A "Super Eagle" disk for minicomputers, .....
> assembly, with this gluedissolving after the disks had been in the field
> for 18 months.
>
> Tantalizing, but I couldn't dig further, perhaps because I'm not a member
> of IEEE.
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 5:34 PM Rico Pajarola <rp at servium.ch> wrote:
>
>> if you still have that story, I'd love to hear it. A quick search didn't
>> turn up anything except that Super Eagles is a Nigerian football team.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 12:59 PM John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't have authoritative info on the cause, I'm just repeating what I
>>> heard. A highly viscous substance like glue would explain why it took so
>>> long to fail. In any event, it was nasty. Worked perfectly long enough to
>>> build confidence, then failed spectacularly. It was widespread. I entered a
>>> "Sysadmin Horror Story" contest at a USENIX (San Diego?), and won with a
>>> "short story" entry: *Supereagles*. I still have the shark's tooth
>>> trophy.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 9:41 AM Tim Wilkinson <tjw at twsoft.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interesting that it was the platter bonding. The explanation SI gave us
>>>> (They sold us the super Eagles along with their controller) was that it was
>>>> a lubricant. So I had assumed a bearing seal fail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anyway after about 4 swap outs and a lot of lifting they lasted a
>>>> further 15 years until we knocked down the office with the original 750 and
>>>> its big brother an 8810 still in the computer room as all the resellers
>>>> wanted certificates of continuing maintenance that would have cost more
>>>> than they were willing to pay for those vaxs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* John P. Linderman [mailto:jpl.jpl at gmail.com]
>>>> *Sent:* 02 July 2019 12:47
>>>> *To:* Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
>>>> *Cc:* Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>; Patrick Finnegan <
>>>> pat at computer-refuge.org>; COFF <coff at minnie.tuhs.org>; Tim Wilkinson <
>>>> tjw at twsoft.co.uk>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There were eagles, and then there were super-eagles. Our experience
>>>> with eagles was great, and we were eager to try the (larger) super-eagles.
>>>> We soaked them for a month or so, then put them into production use.
>>>> Whereupon, they started dropping like flies. It turns out the glue they
>>>> used to attach the platters to the spindle slowly crept out over time,
>>>> eventually coming to grief with a read/write head. This experience was
>>>> wide-spread, and seriously damaged Fujitsu's reputation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:11 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 09:49:42AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
>>>> >  An Eagle or Eagle-II was a whole lot lighter (and physically
>>>> smaller) than
>>>> > an RP06 or RP07 (or an RM series drive for that matter). It is
>>>> interesting
>>>> > to hear you had problems with the Eagles.   They were generally
>>>> considered
>>>> > the best/most reliable of the day.   The SI controller on the Vax was
>>>> less
>>>> > so, although many of us in the UNIX community used them.
>>>>
>>>> We ran Eagles on the Masscomps we had at Geophysics.  Nothing but good
>>>> things to say about those drives.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> COFF mailing list
>>>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Virus-free.
>>>> www.avast.com
>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>>>> <#m_2142356106908993712_m_1751084755802734138_m_-5102461650516400670_m_-7814325232288781299_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> COFF mailing list
>>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
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[COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to choose

[clemc]

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BTW:   for those not around in the 1970's Dave's reference to the 'Pinto'
here it is:
Ford Pinto issues
THE *FORD PINTO* CASE: The cases involving the explosion of *Ford Pinto's* due
to a defective fuel system design led to the debate of many *issues*, most
centering around the use by *Ford* of a cost-benefit analysis and the
ethics surrounding its decision not to upgrade the fuel system based on
this analysis.
THE FORD PINTO CASE:
https://users.wfu.edu/palmitar/Law&Valuation/Papers/1999/Leggett-pinto.html
<https://users.wfu.edu/palmitar/Law&Valuation/Papers/1999/Leggett-pinto.html>

[When I was in college, another student at CMU painted a large Bull's Eye
on the back of him Pinto]

On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 2:38 PM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> John - not much there:
>
> Introduction to redundant arrays of inexpensive disks (RAID)
> From Page 112, Bottom of 1st column continued to the top of second the
> text is:
>
> While the magnetic disk industry has made little progress in improving
> speed of disks, it has significantly reduced the size of disks. The
> personal computer industry has created a market for 5.25 and 3.5 inch
> drives, reducing the cost per disk system as well as the traditional
> lowering of cost per megabyte. Table I below compares the top-of-the-line
> IBM 3380 model AK4 mainframe disk, Fujitsu M2361A "Super Eagle"
> minicomputer disk, Impress/CDC Wren-IV workstation disk, and the Conner Peripherals
> CP 3100 personal computer disk.
>
> From Page 116, Second column the text is;
>
> One problem that several magnetic disk manufacturers have mentioned is
> what we would call the "Pinto Effect;" a mistake is made in manufacturing
> process that is so disastrous that the disk manufacturer will recall all
> affected disks and replace them. The common theme is that the mistake is
> uncovered after the disks have been in the field for several months and the
> disks all fail within a short time of one another. One example was a
> manufacturer who glued together the two halves of an head-disk assembly,
> with this glue dissolving after the disks had been in the field for 18
> months. Another example was that a new bateriacide used in an air filter
> interacted with the disk surface so that many failures occurred six months
> later. A common cause of the Pinto Effect is that a supplier will change
> some component as a cost cutting measure without notifying the disk
> manufacturer, and disastrous consequences occur due to unforeseen
> interactions.
>
> Although we desperately need real data on disk failures, we are performing
> studies of using models to estimate the impact of the Pinto Effect on RAID
> reliability.
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 2:02 PM John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The best I could find googling *fujitsu super eagle "glue"* was
>>
>> Introduction to redundant arrays of inexpensive disks ... - IEEE Xplore
>> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel2/231/7454/00301912.pdf
>> <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel2/231/7454/00301912.pdf>
>> by DA Patterson - ‎1989 - ‎Cited by 324
>> <https://scholar.google.com/scholar?biw=1544&bih=764&um=1&ie=UTF-8&lr&cites=11507519054000724161> -
>> ‎Related articles
>> <https://scholar.google.com/scholar?biw=1544&bih=764&um=1&ie=UTF-8&lr&q=related:wZjAM5zrsp8u3M:scholar.google.com/>
>> computers, the Fujitsu M2361A "Super Eagle" disk for minicomputers,
>> ..... assembly, with this gluedissolving after the disks had been in the
>> field for 18 months.
>>
>> Tantalizing, but I couldn't dig further, perhaps because I'm not a member
>> of IEEE.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 5:34 PM Rico Pajarola <rp at servium.ch> wrote:
>>
>>> if you still have that story, I'd love to hear it. A quick search didn't
>>> turn up anything except that Super Eagles is a Nigerian football team.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 12:59 PM John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't have authoritative info on the cause, I'm just repeating what I
>>>> heard. A highly viscous substance like glue would explain why it took so
>>>> long to fail. In any event, it was nasty. Worked perfectly long enough to
>>>> build confidence, then failed spectacularly. It was widespread. I entered a
>>>> "Sysadmin Horror Story" contest at a USENIX (San Diego?), and won with a
>>>> "short story" entry: *Supereagles*. I still have the shark's tooth
>>>> trophy.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 9:41 AM Tim Wilkinson <tjw at twsoft.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting that it was the platter bonding. The explanation SI gave
>>>>> us (They sold us the super Eagles along with their controller) was that it
>>>>> was a lubricant. So I had assumed a bearing seal fail.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway after about 4 swap outs and a lot of lifting they lasted a
>>>>> further 15 years until we knocked down the office with the original 750 and
>>>>> its big brother an 8810 still in the computer room as all the resellers
>>>>> wanted certificates of continuing maintenance that would have cost more
>>>>> than they were willing to pay for those vaxs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* John P. Linderman [mailto:jpl.jpl at gmail.com]
>>>>> *Sent:* 02 July 2019 12:47
>>>>> *To:* Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
>>>>> *Cc:* Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>; Patrick Finnegan <
>>>>> pat at computer-refuge.org>; COFF <coff at minnie.tuhs.org>; Tim Wilkinson <
>>>>> tjw at twsoft.co.uk>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [COFF] Disk Technology was [Simh] Which PDP-11 to
>>>>> choose
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There were eagles, and then there were super-eagles. Our experience
>>>>> with eagles was great, and we were eager to try the (larger) super-eagles.
>>>>> We soaked them for a month or so, then put them into production use.
>>>>> Whereupon, they started dropping like flies. It turns out the glue they
>>>>> used to attach the platters to the spindle slowly crept out over time,
>>>>> eventually coming to grief with a read/write head. This experience was
>>>>> wide-spread, and seriously damaged Fujitsu's reputation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:11 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 09:49:42AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
>>>>> >  An Eagle or Eagle-II was a whole lot lighter (and physically
>>>>> smaller) than
>>>>> > an RP06 or RP07 (or an RM series drive for that matter). It is
>>>>> interesting
>>>>> > to hear you had problems with the Eagles.   They were generally
>>>>> considered
>>>>> > the best/most reliable of the day.   The SI controller on the Vax
>>>>> was less
>>>>> > so, although many of us in the UNIX community used them.
>>>>>
>>>>> We ran Eagles on the Masscomps we had at Geophysics.  Nothing but good
>>>>> things to say about those drives.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> COFF mailing list
>>>>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>>>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Virus-free.
>>>>> www.avast.com
>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>>>>> <#m_-5891018402996361374_m_2142356106908993712_m_1751084755802734138_m_-5102461650516400670_m_-7814325232288781299_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> COFF mailing list
>>>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> COFF mailing list
>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>>
>
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