* [COFF] [TUHS] screen editors
[not found] ` <202001090423.0094NooZ379407@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
@ 2020-01-09 15:54 ` clemc
[not found] ` <20200109190219.bdHOi%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 2+ messages in thread
From: clemc @ 2020-01-09 15:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
Answering, but CCing COFF if folks want to continue. This is less about
UNIX and more about how we all got to where we are.
On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 11:24 PM Jon Steinhart <jon at fourwinds.com> wrote:
> Clem, this seems like an unusual position for you to take. vim is
> backwards
> compatible with vi (and also ed), so it added to an existing ecosystem.
>
No, really unusually when you think about it. vim is backward compatible
except when it's not (as Bakul points out) - which is my complaint. It's
*almost* compatible and those small differences are really annoying when
you expect one thing and get something else (*i.e.* the least astonishment
principle).
The key point here is for *some people*, those few differences are not an
issue and are not astonished by them. But for *some of the rest of us*
(probably people like me that have used the program since PDP-11 days) that
only really care about the original parts, the new stuff is of little value
and so the small differences are astonishing. Which comes back to the
question of good and best. It all depends on one what you value/where you
put the high order bit. I'm not willing to "pay" for the it; as it gives
me little value.
Doug started this thread with his observation that ex/vi was huge compared
to other editors. * i.e.* value: small simple easy to understand (Rob's old
"*cat -v considered harmful*" argument if you will). The BSD argument had
always been: "the new stuff is handy." The emacs crew tends to take a
similar stand. I probably don't go quite as far as Rob, but I certainly
lean in that direction. I generally would rather something small and new
that solves a different (set of) problem(s), then adding yet another wart
on to an older program, *particularly when you change the base
functionality *- which is my vi *vs. *vim complaint*.* [i.e. 'partial
credit' does not cut it].
To me, another good example is 'more', 'less' and 'pg'. Eric Schienbrood
wrote the original more(ucb) to try to duplicate the ITS functionality (he
wrote it for the PDP-11/70 in Cory Hall BTW - Ernie did not exist and
4.1BSD was a few years in the future - so small an simple of a huge
value). It went out in the BSD tapes, people loved it and were happy. It
solved a problem as we had it. Life was good. Frankly, other than NIH,
I'm not sure why the folks at AT&T decided to create pg a few years later
since more was already in the wild, but at least it was a different program
(Mary Ann's story of vi *vs*. se if probably in the same vein). But
because of that behavior, if someone like me came to an AT&T based system
with only pg installed, so those of us that liked/were used to more(ucb)
could install it and life was good. Note pg was/is different in
functionality, it's similar, but not finger compatible.
But other folks seem to have thought neither was 'good enough' -- thus
later less(gnu) was created adding a ton of new functionality to Eric's
program. The facts are clear, some (ney many) people >>love<< that new
functionality, like going backward. I >>personally<< rarely care/need for
it, Eric's program was (is) good enough for me. Like Doug's observation
of ed *vs.* ex/vi; less is huge compared to the original more (or pg for
that matter). But if you value the new features, I suspect you might
think that's not an issue. Thanks to Moore's law, the size in this case
probably does not matter too much (other than introducing new bugs). At
least, when folks wrote did Gnu's less, the basic more(ucb) behavior was
left along and if you set PAGER=more less(gnu) pretty much works as I
expect it too. So I now don't bring Eric's program with me, the same way
Bakul describes installing nvi on new systems (an activiity I also do).
Back to vi *vs.* nvi *vs.* vim *et. al.* Frankly, in my own case, I do
>>occaisonally<< use split screens, but frankly, I can get most of the same
from having a window manager, different iterm2 windows and cut/paste. So
even that extension to nvi, is of limited value to me. vim just keeps
adding more and more cruft and its even bigger. I personally don't care
for the new functionality, and the size of it all is worrisome. What am I
buying? That said, if the new features do not hurt me, then I don't really
care. I might even use some of the new functionality - hey I run mac OS
not v7 or BSD 4.x for my day to day work and I do use the mac window
manager, the browser *et al*, but as I type this message I have 6 other
iterm2 windows open with work I am doing in other areas.
Let me take a look at this issue in a different way. I have long been a
'car guy' and like many of those times in my youth spent time and money
playing/racing etc. I've always thought electric was a great idea/but there
has been nothing for me. Note: As many of you know my work in computers has
been in HPC, and I've been lucky to spend a lot of time with my customers,
in the auto and aerospace industry (*i.e.* the current Audi A6 was designed
on one of my supercomputer systems). The key point is have tended to
follow technology in their area and tend to "in-tune" with a lot of
developments. The result, except for my wife's minivan (that she preferred
in the years when our kids were small), I've always been a
die-hard German-engineered/performance car person. But when Elon announced
the Model 3 (like 1/2 the techie world), I put down a deposit and waited.
Well why I was waiting, my techie daughter (who also loves cars), got a
chance to drive one. She predicted I would hate it!!! So when my ticket
finally came up, I went to drive them. She was right!!! With the Model 3,
you get a cool car, but it's about the size of a Corrolla. Coming from
Germans cars for the last 35 years, the concept of spending $60K US in
practice for a Corrolla just did not do it for me. I ended up ordering the
current Unixmobile, my beloved Tesla Model S/P100D.
The truth is, I paid a lot of money for it but I *value *what I got for my
money. A number of people don't think it's worth it. I get that, but I'm
still happy with what I have. Will there someday be a $20K electric car
like my Model S? While I think electric cars will get there (I point out
the same price curve on technology such microwave ovens from the 1970so
today), but I actually doubt that there will be a $20K electric vehicle
like my Model S.
The reason is that to sell this car because it as to be expensive for
technology-based reasons, so Tesla had to add a lot of 'luxury' features
like other cars in the class, other sports cars, Mercedes, *et al*. As
they removed them (*i.e.* the Model 3) you still get a cool car, but it's
not at all the same as the Model S. So the point is, if I wanted an
electric car, I had to choose between a performance/luxury *vs*.
size/functionality. I realized I valued the former (and still do), but I
understand not everyone does or will.
Coming back to our topic, I really don't think this is a 'get my lawn'
issue as much, as asking someone what they really value/what they really
need. If you place a high-value you something, you will argue that its
best; if it has little value you will not.
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