* [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs [not found] <20200320140308.4FBBB18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> @ 2020-03-20 16:07 ` gtaylor 2020-03-20 20:33 ` mike.ab3ap 2020-03-21 3:53 ` dave 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: gtaylor @ 2020-03-20 16:07 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3929 bytes --] +COFF On 3/20/20 8:03 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Maybe I'm being clueless/over-asking, but to me it's appalling that > any college student (at least all who have _any_ math requirement at > all; not sure how many that is) doesn't know how an RPN calculator > works. I'm sure that there are some people, maybe not the corpus you mention, that have zero clue how an RPN calculator works. But I would expect anybody with a little gumption to be able to poke a few buttons and probably figure out the basic operation, or, ask if they are genuinely confused. > It's not exactly rocket science, and any reasonably intelligent > high-schooler should get it extremely quickly; just tell them it's > just a representational thing, number number operator instead of > number operator number. I agree that RPN is not rocket science. And for basic single operation equations, I think that it's largely interchangeable with infix notation. However, my experience is, as the number of operations goes up, RPN can become more difficult to use. This is likely a mental shortcoming on my part. But it is something that does take tractable mental effort for me to do. For example, let's start with Pythagorean Theorem a² + b² = c² This is relatively easy to enter in infix notation on a typical scientific calculator. However, I have to stop and think about how to enter this on an RPN calculator. I'll take a swing at this, but I might get it wrong, and I don't have anything handy to test at the moment. [a] [enter] [a] [enter] [multiply] [b] [enter] [b] [enter] [multiply] [add] [square root] # to solve for c (12 keys) Conversely infix notation for comparison. [a] [square] [plus] [b] [square] [square root] (6 keys) As I type this, I realize that I'm using higher order operations (square) in infix than I am in RPN. But that probably speaks to my ignorance of RPN. I also realize that this equation does a poor job at demonstrating what I'm trying to convey. — Or perhaps what I'm trying to convey is incorrect. — I had to arrange sub-different parts of the equation so that their results ended up together on the stack for them to be the targets of the operation. I believe this (re)arrangement of the equation is where most of my mental load / objection comes from with RPN. I feel like I have to process the equation before I can tell the calculator to compute the result for me. I don't feel like I have this burden with infix notation. Aside: I firmly believe that computers are supposed to do our bidding, not the other way around. s/computers/calculators/ > I know it's not a key intellectual skill, but it does seem to me to > be part of comon intellectual heritage that everyone should know, > like musical scales or poetry rhyming. Have you ever considered > taking two minutes (literally!) to cover it briefly, just 'someone > tried to borrow my RPN calculator, here's the basic idea of how they > work'? I'm confident that 80% of people, more of the corpus you describe, could use an RPN calculator to do simple equations. But I would not be surprised if many found that the re-arrangement of equations to being RPN friendly would simply forego the RPN calculator for simpler arithmetic operations. I think some of it is a mental question: Which has more mental load, doing the annoying arithmetic or re-arranging to use RPN. I believe that for the simpler of the arithmetic operations, RPN is going to be more difficult. All of this being said, I'd love to have someone lay out points and / or counterpoints to my understanding. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4013 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20200320/6c9c556f/attachment.bin> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs 2020-03-20 16:07 ` [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs gtaylor @ 2020-03-20 20:33 ` mike.ab3ap 2020-03-21 3:53 ` dave 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: mike.ab3ap @ 2020-03-20 20:33 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1247 bytes --] Hi Grant, On 3/20/20 12:07 PM, Grant Taylor via COFF wrote: > [a] [enter] > [a] [enter] > [multiply] > [b] [enter] > [b] [enter] > [multiply] > [add] > [square root] # to solve for c > > (12 keys) On an HP calc, it'd actually be: [a] [square] [b] [square] [add] [sqrt] but no win over infix. A noticeable win is that RPN uses no parentheses. Consider (1+2)*3 / ((4-5)/6)) + log(7/8). RPN: 1 2 + 3 * 4 5 - 6 / / 7 8 / log : 15 keystrokes Alg: counting chars above is 25 keystrokes, 26 with a final '='. I'm not so sure that minimized keystrokes are the real win, in any case. Using RPN trains me to quickly see the equation in its decomposed parts. In the end, it's really about what fits best in your head. The world seems to have spoken that infix is preferred - even if RPN users think they know better! :-) I worked with a now-retired engineer who believed everyone should learn first on a slide rule and that there is no better tool for learning sig figs and ballparking answers. He would lecture about it whenever someone put the decimal point in the wrong place and didn't realize it. As a result, next to my old calculators...yup, a few slide rules! Mike Markowski - correct order for Polish operator :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs 2020-03-20 16:07 ` [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs gtaylor 2020-03-20 20:33 ` mike.ab3ap @ 2020-03-21 3:53 ` dave 2020-03-21 4:11 ` paul 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: dave @ 2020-03-21 3:53 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 20 Mar 2020, Grant Taylor via COFF wrote: > However, I have to stop and think about how to enter this on an RPN > calculator. I'll take a swing at this, but I might get it wrong, and I > don't have anything handy to test at the moment. > > [a] [enter] > [a] [enter] > [multiply] > [b] [enter] > [b] [enter] > [multiply] > [add] > [square root] # to solve for c [a] [square] [enter] [b] [square] [+] [sqrt] (You don't need those extra "enter" keys, as the display is implicitly the top of the stack.) > (12 keys) 7. Well, "square" also needs the orange "shift" key, so that's really 9, but the number of keystrokes ain't exactly the point; it's not a race, but a method of thinking. > Conversely infix notation for comparison. > > [a] > [square] > [plus] > [b] > [square] > [square root] > > (6 keys) [...] Well, it really comes down to the calculation that you are trying to perform. Trivial example: 1 + 1 = -> 4 keys. 1 enter 1 add -> 4 keys. I don't have an algebraic calculator right to hand, but I'd imagine that solving a second-order polynomial (without a built-in program!) would involve fewer keys when using RPN because of the stack for intermediate results; a quick estimate is around 30 keys (with single-digit numbers) to get one of the roots, and you could probably save the result of most of it on the stack for re-use to get the other root (and the 42S groks complex numbers as a bonus[*], but that's hardly as a result of RPN). The 42S also has a handy "swap x/y" if the operands are the wrong way around, another one to rotate the stack, etc. You don't do Computer Science without being exposed to RPN, and I had to wait for a salary-in-lieu payout (long story) before I could afford the 42S that I'd been drooling over (and forget the overpriced IR printer[#]). [*] 1 +/- SQRT => "0.00 i1.00" (I have the display precision set to 2 because I use it for monetary stuff a lot; the internal precision is 15 digits). [#] A dream of mine is to reverse-engineer the printer protocol, then grab it using a laptop camera. Here endeth today's HP-42S lesson... -- Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs 2020-03-21 3:53 ` dave @ 2020-03-21 4:11 ` paul 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: paul @ 2020-03-21 4:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Dixit Dave Horsfall (2020-03-20 11:53 p.m.): > A dream of mine is to reverse-engineer the printer protocol, then grab it > using a laptop camera. You might find this interesting: http://www.mh-aerotools.de/hp/red-eye/HP-IR%20Receiver%20with%20Arduino.pdf Paul Guertin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
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* [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs [not found] ` <20200317145723.GF26660@mcvoy.com> @ 2020-03-17 15:41 ` clemc 2020-03-17 22:48 ` dave 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: clemc @ 2020-03-17 15:41 UTC (permalink / raw) Moving to COFF .... On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 10:58 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote: > As much as I don't care for Forth, man do I wish it had become the standard > for boot proms, it might not be my cup of tea but I could make it do what > I needed it to do. Amen bro... Sun did a nice job on that. Although the Alpha Boot ROMs were pretty good too. At least they were UNIX like and were extensible like the Sun boot ROMs. HP's were better than a PC BIOS, but they were pretty awful. > Can't say the same for UEFI, I disable that crap. > Well, it beats the crap out of IBM's BIOS, but that bar is very low. UEFI was sort of a 'camel' (a horse designed by committee) and too many people peed on it. Intel created EFI to try to fix BIOS and then people went nuts. Apple's version is the best of them, but as you say, they all suck if you have seen anything better. A big problem IMO is that EFI tried to be somewhat compatible. In the end, they were not, so you got the worst of both (new interfaces and legacy functionality). Server systems that support IPMT have Minux under the covers in coprocessor, which using a coprocessor is also how Apple runs UEFI. With IMPT, it is sort of sad more of it is not really exposed, but you need the added cost of the coprocessor. Plus it adds a new security domain, which many people complain about. I try to know as little about it as possible to get my work done, but exposing more of that interface might help. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20200317/5eba0a4e/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs 2020-03-17 15:41 ` clemc @ 2020-03-17 22:48 ` dave 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: dave @ 2020-03-17 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 894 bytes --] On Tue, 17 Mar 2020, Clem Cole wrote: > > Can't say the same for UEFI, I disable that crap. > > Well, it beats the crap out of IBM's BIOS, but that bar is very low. > UEFI was sort of a 'camel' (a horse designed by committee) and too > many people peed on it. Intel created EFI to try to fix BIOS and then > people went nuts. Apple's version is the best of them, but as you say, > they all suck if you have seen anything better. A big problem IMO is > that EFI tried to be somewhat compatible. In the end, they were not, so > you got the worst of both (new interfaces and legacy functionality). The first time I blundered into UEFI was when I tried to boot FreeBSD on a newish PC, and of course it was not an authorised CD, was it? Or something like that; anyway, I'm a great believer in allowing idiots to shoot themselves in the foot if they so desire. -- Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
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* [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs [not found] ` <c44be69f-846d-55f2-2709-8765f7f5fcc4@gmail.com> @ 2020-03-19 21:31 ` dave 2020-03-19 21:30 ` cym224 [not found] ` <6D9CA6C2-BDF2-4BCA-9503-0F8415C594C9@guertin.net> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: dave @ 2020-03-19 21:31 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, 19 Mar 2020, Mike Markowski wrote: >> I've been using my trusty HP-42S for so long that I can hardly remember >> how to use a "normal" calculator :-) > > When my classmate's calculator died during an engineering exam, he asked > if he could borrow my spare. I handed him my HP 32s and after a minute > he whispered, "Where's the equals key?" He gave my calculator back. > :-) I did that to a financial controller in a previous life; she was not amused... Hey, it was the only calculator that I had! I could see her helplessly looking for the "=" key, then I took pity on her. -- Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs 2020-03-19 21:31 ` dave @ 2020-03-19 21:30 ` cym224 2020-03-19 21:48 ` stewart 2020-03-21 2:49 ` dave [not found] ` <6D9CA6C2-BDF2-4BCA-9503-0F8415C594C9@guertin.net> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: cym224 @ 2020-03-19 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw) On 03/19/20 17:31, Dave Horsfall wrote: > On Thu, 19 Mar 2020, Mike Markowski wrote: >>> I've been using my trusty HP-42S for so long that I can hardly >>> remember how to use a "normal" calculator :-) >> When my classmate's calculator died during an engineering exam, he >> asked if he could borrow my spare. I handed him my HP 32s and after >> a minute he whispered, "Where's the equals key?" He gave my >> calculator back. :-) > I did that to a financial controller in a previous life; she was not > amused... Hey, it was the only calculator that I had! I could see > her helplessly looking for the "=" key, then I took pity on her. Hhmm, back in my early days, the 12C was highly coveted by financial types. Our mileage differed. By the way, HP will sell you an Android app'n that looks just like their venerable (and much missed) calculators. N. > > -- Dave > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs 2020-03-19 21:30 ` cym224 @ 2020-03-19 21:48 ` stewart 2020-03-21 2:49 ` dave 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: stewart @ 2020-03-19 21:48 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1324 bytes --] > On Mar 19, 2020, at 5:39 PM, Nemo Nusquam <cym224 at gmail.com> wrote: > > On 03/19/20 17:31, Dave Horsfall wrote: >> On Thu, 19 Mar 2020, Mike Markowski wrote: >>>> I've been using my trusty HP-42S for so long that I can hardly remember how to use a "normal" calculator :-) >>> When my classmate's calculator died during an engineering exam, he asked if he could borrow my spare. I handed him my HP 32s and after a minute he whispered, "Where's the equals key?" He gave my calculator back. :-) >> I did that to a financial controller in a previous life; she was not amused... Hey, it was the only calculator that I had! I could see her helplessly looking for the "=" key, then I took pity on her. > > Hhmm, back in my early days, the 12C was highly coveted by financial types. Our mileage differed. > > By the way, HP will sell you an Android app'n that looks just like their venerable (and much missed) calculators. > > N. >> >> -- Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> COFF mailing list >> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org >> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff The HP calculator apps run the original microcode... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs 2020-03-19 21:30 ` cym224 2020-03-19 21:48 ` stewart @ 2020-03-21 2:49 ` dave 2020-03-21 2:55 ` lm 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: dave @ 2020-03-21 2:49 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, 19 Mar 2020, Nemo Nusquam wrote: > Hhmm, back in my early days, the 12C was highly coveted by financial > types. Our mileage differed. I've never seen one (but I've heard of them). Hmmm... The blue "g" key rings a bell from somewhere. > By the way, HP will sell you an Android app'n that looks just like their > venerable (and much missed) calculators. Sell? I downloaded "Free42" for the Mac for free :-) -- Dave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs 2020-03-21 2:49 ` dave @ 2020-03-21 2:55 ` lm 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: lm @ 2020-03-21 2:55 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 01:49:27PM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote: > On Thu, 19 Mar 2020, Nemo Nusquam wrote: > > >Hhmm, back in my early days, the 12C was highly coveted by financial > >types. Our mileage differed. > > I've never seen one (but I've heard of them). Hmmm... The blue "g" key > rings a bell from somewhere. > > >By the way, HP will sell you an Android app'n that looks just like their > >venerable (and much missed) calculators. > > Sell? I downloaded "Free42" for the Mac for free :-) An app will never give you that feelng of touching quality when you pushed the keys. Those were really well made tools. I'm a tool guy, I've got a full on wood working shop (with a ton of old and new hand planes, the new guys are making some good stuff), pretty decent metal working, Logan lathe, stick, mig, plasma, and a full on mechanic shop, up to 3/4" impacts, I do tractors and big trucks. I love tools and an app is not a replacement for putting your fingers on an old HP calc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
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* [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs [not found] ` <6D9CA6C2-BDF2-4BCA-9503-0F8415C594C9@guertin.net> @ 2020-03-20 15:40 ` gtaylor [not found] ` <202003201640.02KGerlG470796@darkstar.fourwinds.com> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: gtaylor @ 2020-03-20 15:40 UTC (permalink / raw) Aside: I'm sending this reply to TUHS where the message that I'm replying to came from. But i suspect that it should migrate to COFF, which I'm CCing. On 3/20/20 5:48 AM, paul at guertin.net wrote: > I teach math in college, and I use an RPN calculator as well (it's > just easier). Would you please elaborate on "it's just easier"? I'm asking from a point of genuine curiosity. I've heard many say that RPN is easier, or that it takes fewer keys, or otherwise superior to infix notation. But many of the conversations end up somewhat devolving into religious like comments about preferences, despite starting with honest open-minded intentions. (I hope this one doesn't similarly devolve.) I've heard that there are fewer keys to press for RPN, but the example equations presented have been effectively he same. I've heard that RPN is mentally easier. But I apparently don't know enough RPN to be able to think in RPN natively to evaluate myself. I dabble with RPN, including keeping my main calculator app on my smart phone in RPN mode. So I am genuinely interested in understanding why you say that RPN is just easier. > Sometimes, during an exam, a student who forgot to bring their > calculator will ask if they can borrow mine. I always say "sure, but > you'll regret it" and hand them the calculator. After wasting one or > two minutes, they give it back. ~chuckle~ > (Note that I always make sure no calculator is needed for my exams, > but it's department policy to authorise non programmable calculators, > and it seems to reassure students to have the calculator on the desk, > so I don't mind.) > ACK -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4013 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20200320/732f1cdc/attachment.bin> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
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* [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs [not found] ` <0b0d0ba3-7eae-a844-cc9a-ae542edb302b@tnetconsulting.net> @ 2020-03-20 19:11 ` clemc 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: clemc @ 2020-03-20 19:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Moving to COFF ... On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 1:24 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org> wrote: > Would you humor me with an example of what you mean by "thinking on the > fly"? Either I'm not understanding you or we think differently. > I'll take a stab at it in a minute. But first, I never cared either way. In college, I had an SR50 and my GF had an HP45. I would say, between my EE friends we were probably split 50/50 between TI and HP. Generally, it was the RPN centric crew were fiercely loyal as in the editor wars but would grab whichever was near me when we all were working a problem set; but I knew a couple of folks that hated RPN too. It's possible, because of my undiagnosed dyslexia at the time, but I would grab the closest calculator, pause to see which is was and then start entering things as needed. But like Jon -- if I had the TI in my hands, I found myself copying the equation. I was trying to pay attention to what button I was pressing to check for any keystroke entry errors. Both types had all of the same math functions so there was little difference in the number of strokes, other than not needing parentheses on HP and how you entered the calculation. With the HP, I was more aware of that equation I was calculating because I was having to make sure I entered it in the proper order so I could get the right answer. In my case, I was probably a tad more careful because I was being forced to thinking in terms of precedence - but I was thinking about the equation. Whereas with the TI I was just hitting the button per the equation on the paper. I typed a tad faster on the TI than the HP because I was not thinking as much but ... I probably made more typing errors there because I thought less about what I was doing. Clem -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20200320/b8cbbba6/attachment-0001.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2020-03-21 4:11 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <20200320140308.4FBBB18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> 2020-03-20 16:07 ` [COFF] [TUHS] The most surprising Unix programs gtaylor 2020-03-20 20:33 ` mike.ab3ap 2020-03-21 3:53 ` dave 2020-03-21 4:11 ` paul [not found] <202003132331.02DNVaxN061501@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> [not found] ` <7ec47fd97b1a3d383ffed428f21f5287@firemail.cc> [not found] ` <CALMnNGjuQybT8_g_g498dOuV9OV67JEOn7Mz34vG1TeO9WrkYw@mail.gmail.com> [not found] ` <cdef128a21d3ed60c79dc5253d761652@firemail.cc> [not found] ` <20200317145723.GF26660@mcvoy.com> 2020-03-17 15:41 ` clemc 2020-03-17 22:48 ` dave [not found] ` <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.2003180908300.10777@aneurin.horsfall.org> [not found] ` <c44be69f-846d-55f2-2709-8765f7f5fcc4@gmail.com> 2020-03-19 21:31 ` dave 2020-03-19 21:30 ` cym224 2020-03-19 21:48 ` stewart 2020-03-21 2:49 ` dave 2020-03-21 2:55 ` lm [not found] ` <6D9CA6C2-BDF2-4BCA-9503-0F8415C594C9@guertin.net> 2020-03-20 15:40 ` gtaylor [not found] ` <202003201640.02KGerlG470796@darkstar.fourwinds.com> [not found] ` <0b0d0ba3-7eae-a844-cc9a-ae542edb302b@tnetconsulting.net> 2020-03-20 19:11 ` clemc
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