[COFF] Re: [TUHS] Interview question

[segaloco via COFF <coff@tuhs.org>]

I do like the conversation that has spun up here and I think a good takeaway is that different projects require different workmanship.  Different goals hinge on different ideas of what a team should look like and how work is delegated.

The question on what one would do upon seeing a coworker some random place out in public is quite an interesting one these days what with remote work and all.  Admittedly there are a few coworkers I've done on-site assignments with in the past that I'd be encouraged to know were around and bump into every now and then, but by and large it would feel uncomfortable and awkward just by default.  As grateful as I am to have the sort of flexibility this work style allows, there's a part of me that feels hobbled by not having a big table to gather the team around and a white board at the end of the room to scribble all sorts of ideas on.  Oh for the day that I could find a local software job...

As for the sweeping, I'll echo other sentiments that it depends on whether it's a genuine need or an exercise in authority.  The former, of course, I care about the cleanliness of my space and would be one of the first to grab a mop when there's a problem.  On the flip side though, I've never sat well with completely arbitrary authority, and so if I see a legitimate reason to not do something, I most certainly will say so.  Granted, I've been of the persuasion for a while that the mindless drone direction is not the key to success and that sometimes you just have to exercise the expertise you've been trusted with, even if that means telling the boss something they don't want to hear.  They pay you to be the best at what you do (hopefully) so should hopefully expect dissent when it is warranted.  This was an area that took some adjusting to in my early working days, that a good supervisor is encouraging of criticism or alternative suggestions when those come from a place of sound reasoning, and that only a fool would dictate over any and all concerns voiced by those who will be doing the work.

- Matt G.

------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, January 4th, 2023 at 8:06 AM, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:


> I think people are bike shedding this so I'm gonna let it go. What
> worked for me might not work for you, so be it. You guys have fun.
> 
> On Wed, Jan 04, 2023 at 10:42:03AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 10:06 PM Larry McVoy lm@mcvoy.com wrote:
> > 
> > > Bakul gets it. "Entirely by you" does not mean "go get some sand
> > > because you need to make some silicon ..."
> > > 
> > > "Entirely by you" means given a set of tools, show me what you did.
> > > Just you. Not your team, just you.
> > 
> > Hmm. I've worked on projects where all code had to be reviewed prior
> > to submission into a shared repository (though there was a carve-out
> > for a little experimental area). In that context, how does one define
> > "just you"?
> > 
> > > It's not an arbitrary question, Warner, it's giving people have done
> > > it a chance to say so. And weeding out the people who haven't.
> > > 
> > > Which is not a great way to sort people in general, it was a great
> > > way to sort people for my 12 person company. We needed people who
> > > could do that, we were too small for people who couldn't.
> > 
> > It seems to me that the outcome is more important than the specifics
> > of this exercise. Reading between the lines, it sounds like you were
> > using this as a proxy for whether someone can come in and start
> > contributing largely unguided and without a lot of handholding, and
> > drive something to completion without a lot of external help. That's
> > all well and good, but I don't know if this is the best way to assess
> > that; as worded, it sounds mostly like you're asking if someone has
> > built some tool explicitly used by (at least?) a few other people, but
> > some people make much bigger contributions with much higher impact in
> > very complex systems without ever doing that.
> > 
> > I think Warner's point is sound: you're building something within a
> > framework/system/design/whatever that's been shaped by many others
> > before you; what is the meaning of an individual contribution in that
> > sense? In some sense, I've written software used by billions of
> > people, but they would never know that. I remember when my late mother
> > called me once and said, "I saw that Google was in the news for doing
> > <something>, was that you?" and I replied, "mom, if you ever hear
> > about anything that I did at Google in the news, then I messed up very
> > badly and I'm really in a lot of trouble and probably looking for a
> > new job." "Oh," my crestfallen mother said, "I told my friends you
> > worked on that." "Sorry, ma." Internally, I might have built something
> > or changed something used by tens of thousands of engineers,
> > well-documented, etc, but again, most wouldn't think about it that
> > way; most of them wouldn't even know. Warner's example of working
> > inside the FreeBSD kernel similarly: that's used in all kinds of
> > places by many, many people, but most don't give a second thought to
> > wondering how it works.
> > 
> > > And Bakul, yes, I asked a lot of other questions. The only other one that
> > > came up repeatedly was the "Safeway question". What's that? If you saw
> > > a coworker at the store, do you go talk to them or do you hide in another
> > > aisle and hope they don't see you? There is your hire/don't hire answer.
> > 
> > Ha! Which is the right answer? :-)
> > 
> > Seriously, though, this seems highly contextually dependent: I see
> > folks I now around town not infrequently, and I generally smile and
> > nod or say hello if I catch their eye, but if they look like they're
> > in a rush or are shepherding a couple of screaming kids, I'm not going
> > to bother them.
> > 
> > > Bill Moore's question was "If we need you to, will you sweep the floors?"
> > 
> > This better be well contextualized. Does this mean, "we're a small
> > organization and everyone needs to be willing to pitch in as needed?"
> > or does it mean, "are you willing to prostrate yourself before the
> > altar of this organization in order to prove yourself?" If the former,
> > sure. If the latter, then no: sorry, I've done my time in more ways
> > than one, including literally sweeping and mopping the floors (and
> > cleaning the head) in the Marines. There's a tendency in technology to
> > basically haze the friendly new guy; I'm done with that.
> > 
> > - Dan C.
> 
> 
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat