Gmane and mail-followup-to

Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

After trying this unsuccessfully several times, I hope someone here can
help me.

How do I tell Gnus that when reading mailing lists as Gmane newsgroups,
followups to my posts should always go to the list and never to me?  I
want to set reply-to, mail-followup-to, mail-copies-to, and whatever
else it takes to convince the world I don't need an extra copy of their
e-mails.  I don't know the full list of things I need to change and when
I've tried it in the past, it always ends up disrespected by some people
and not others...
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/67258 is a good
starting point.

The problem is that Gmane newsgroups don't advertise the list address.
So I'd have to build a static list, which is a pain, to use the existing
message.el facilities, plus those don't address all the issues above.
Is there an easier way?

Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Julien Danjou]

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On Fri, May 27 2011, Ted Zlatanov wrote:

> How do I tell Gnus that when reading mailing lists as Gmane newsgroups,
> followups to my posts should always go to the list and never to me?  I
> want to set reply-to, mail-followup-to, mail-copies-to, and whatever
> else it takes to convince the world I don't need an extra copy of their
> e-mails.  I don't know the full list of things I need to change and when
> I've tried it in the past, it always ends up disrespected by some people
> and not others...
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/67258 is a good
> starting point.

You need to set Mail-Followup-To to the list.
This is done by setting message-subscribed-* variables. When sending a
message to such an address, message-mode wille set the MFU header
correctly.

I rarely¹ had problem with MFU. There's still a chance some MUA does not
respect it when doing reply-to-all or such an action, but in practice,
it worked quite well for me so far (a decade or so).

¹  I can't remember I had one actually.

-- 
Julien Danjou
❱ http://julien.danjou.info

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Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Sat, 28 May 2011 12:41:35 +0200 Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> wrote: 

JD> On Fri, May 27 2011, Ted Zlatanov wrote:
>> How do I tell Gnus that when reading mailing lists as Gmane newsgroups,
>> followups to my posts should always go to the list and never to me?  I
>> want to set reply-to, mail-followup-to, mail-copies-to, and whatever
>> else it takes to convince the world I don't need an extra copy of their
>> e-mails.  I don't know the full list of things I need to change and when
>> I've tried it in the past, it always ends up disrespected by some people
>> and not others...
>> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/67258 is a good
>> starting point.

JD> You need to set Mail-Followup-To to the list.
JD> This is done by setting message-subscribed-* variables. When sending a
JD> message to such an address, message-mode wille set the MFU header
JD> correctly.

I don't know the list address from a Gmane newsgroup so I can't set the
message-* variables appropriately.  Do you mean there's a way without
knowing the list address?

Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Julien Danjou]

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On Sat, May 28 2011, Ted Zlatanov wrote:

> I don't know the list address from a Gmane newsgroup so I can't set the
> message-* variables appropriately.  Do you mean there's a way without
> knowing the list address?

Oh yeah. I see the problem.

I'm sorry, but I think you're screwed in that case.

The only solution I can think of if that GMane should do it for you.
For example, you'd set:

    Followup-To: name.of.the.newsgroup

And GMane would be smart and replace it with:

    Mail-Followup-To: listaddress@example.com

in your message when sending it to the list. Maybe you should propose or
discuss this with GMane admins. Maybe it is even already there?! :)

-- 
Julien Danjou
❱ http://julien.danjou.info

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Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Sun, 29 May 2011 14:02:16 +0200 Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> wrote: 

JD> The only solution I can think of if that GMane should do it for you.
JD> For example, you'd set:

JD>     Followup-To: name.of.the.newsgroup

JD> And GMane would be smart and replace it with:

JD>     Mail-Followup-To: listaddress@example.com

JD> in your message when sending it to the list. Maybe you should propose or
JD> discuss this with GMane admins. Maybe it is even already there?! :)

Let's try that.  This article has Followup-To set.

Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Julien Danjou]

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On Mon, May 30 2011, Ted Zlatanov wrote:

> Let's try that.  This article has Followup-To set.

I received it by mail and there's the FT set:

  Followup-To: gmane.emacs.gnus.general

Too bad, it seems GMane does not convert it. :(

-- 
Julien Danjou
❱ http://julien.danjou.info

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Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Sun, 29 May 2011 14:02:16 +0200 Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> wrote: 

JD> The only solution I can think of if that GMane should do it for you.
JD> For example, you'd set:

JD>     Followup-To: name.of.the.newsgroup

JD> And GMane would be smart and replace it with:

JD>     Mail-Followup-To: listaddress@example.com

JD> in your message when sending it to the list. Maybe you should propose or
JD> discuss this with GMane admins. Maybe it is even already there?! :)

On gmane.discuss Lars mentioned (in 2003)
`gnus-mailing-list-followup-to' but that returns nil on
gmane.emacs.gnus.general articles so I don't think it's ideal.

Let's try the Mail-Copies-To header set to "never" as well.  This
article has it.

Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Robert Pluim]

Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> writes:

> On Sat, May 28 2011, Ted Zlatanov wrote:
>
>> I don't know the list address from a Gmane newsgroup so I can't set the
>> message-* variables appropriately.  Do you mean there's a way without
>> knowing the list address?
>
> Oh yeah. I see the problem.
>
> I'm sorry, but I think you're screwed in that case.
>
> The only solution I can think of if that GMane should do it for you.
> For example, you'd set:
>
>     Followup-To: name.of.the.newsgroup
>
> And GMane would be smart and replace it with:
>
>     Mail-Followup-To: listaddress@example.com
>
> in your message when sending it to the list. Maybe you should propose or
> discuss this with GMane admins. Maybe it is even already there?! :)

List-ID ? You'd need to replace the first '.' with '@', but that's
trivial ;)

Robert

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Julien Danjou]

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On Mon, May 30 2011, Robert Pluim wrote:

> List-ID ? You'd need to replace the first '.' with '@', but that's
> trivial ;)

I don't understand what you're saying, but you seem to post via GMane
and have a correct MFU, so maybe you can help Ted. :-D

-- 
Julien Danjou
❱ http://julien.danjou.info

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Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Mon, 30 May 2011 14:31:40 +0200 Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> wrote: 

JD> On Mon, May 30 2011, Robert Pluim wrote:
>> List-ID ? You'd need to replace the first '.' with '@', but that's
>> trivial ;)

JD> I don't understand what you're saying, but you seem to post via GMane
JD> and have a correct MFU, so maybe you can help Ted. :-D

He was saying to use Gmane's List-ID header, which is a rewritten
version of the list address.

But the right approach is to use Mail-Copies-To: never

Gmane will rewrite that to make the Mail-Followup-To point to only the
list.  On the Gnus side nothing is needed except adding that header.

Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Robert Pluim]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> On Mon, 30 May 2011 14:31:40 +0200 Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> wrote: 
>
> JD> On Mon, May 30 2011, Robert Pluim wrote:
>>> List-ID ? You'd need to replace the first '.' with '@', but that's
>>> trivial ;)
>
> JD> I don't understand what you're saying, but you seem to post via GMane
> JD> and have a correct MFU, so maybe you can help Ted. :-D
>
> He was saying to use Gmane's List-ID header, which is a rewritten
> version of the list address.
>
> But the right approach is to use Mail-Copies-To: never
>
> Gmane will rewrite that to make the Mail-Followup-To point to only the
> list.  On the Gnus side nothing is needed except adding that header.

For what it's worth, I've had Mail-Copies-To: never for my Gmane
postings basically forever, and people have still managed to reply to
the 'From' (I suspect they weren't using Gnus though).

Robert

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Mon, 30 May 2011 15:05:38 +0200 Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> wrote: 

RP> For what it's worth, I've had Mail-Copies-To: never for my Gmane
RP> postings basically forever, and people have still managed to reply to
RP> the 'From' (I suspect they weren't using Gnus though).

Some clients only respect Reply-To, so I asked on gmane.discuss that it
also be set when the Mail-Followup-To header is set.  Let's see if Lars
is feeling energetic this week :)

Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>:

> Some clients only respect Reply-To, so I asked on gmane.discuss that
> it also be set when the Mail-Followup-To header is set.  Let's see if
> Lars is feeling energetic this week :)

Note that the combination of reply-to and mailing lists, is a somewhat
religious discussion...

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Mon, 30 May 2011 16:58:01 +0200 Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> wrote: 

SB> Note that the combination of reply-to and mailing lists, is a somewhat
SB> religious discussion...

That's fine, but if I decide I want to set it to <address>, Gmane
should let me (as we discussed, Gmane doesn't tell me the address so I
can't set it myself).

Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Robert Pluim]

Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> writes:

> On Mon, May 30 2011, Robert Pluim wrote:
>
>> List-ID ? You'd need to replace the first '.' with '@', but that's
>> trivial ;)
>
> I don't understand what you're saying, but you seem to post via GMane
> and have a correct MFU, so maybe you can help Ted. :-D

When I read via gmane, the messages have:

List-ID: <ding.gnus.org>

in the headers.  As you noted, I post via Gmane, using nntp, but I've
never set any variables related to MFU, so the fact that mine is correct
is something being done by Gmane.

Robert

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Mon, 30 May 2011 14:22:59 +0200 Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> wrote: 

RP> List-ID ? You'd need to replace the first '.' with '@', but that's
RP> trivial ;)

(also setting Mail-Copies-To to never in this followup)

Yeah, I'll do that if Mail-Copies-To: never doesn't work.  I already
know Followup-To doesn't work.  The problems with List-ID are: it's not
an explicit contract with Gmane, so it could stop working some day; and
it requires some computation on the client side, so only programmable
clients like Gnus could do it easily.

Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Richard Riley]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> On Mon, 30 May 2011 14:22:59 +0200 Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> wrote: 
>
> RP> List-ID ? You'd need to replace the first '.' with '@', but that's
> RP> trivial ;)
>
> (also setting Mail-Copies-To to never in this followup)
>
> Yeah, I'll do that if Mail-Copies-To: never doesn't work.  I already
> know Followup-To doesn't work.  The problems with List-ID are: it's not
> an explicit contract with Gmane, so it could stop working some day; and
> it requires some computation on the client side, so only programmable
> clients like Gnus could do it easily.
>
> Ted
>


How does one set up gnus to reply to only ding@nognus when using the
mailing list? Is it totally dependant on how the op author set their
followup etc? 

I prefer to use the mailing list : simply set up gmail filters (server
side) to apply a label to all posts from certain mailing lists and
archive the original then I have an emacs-gnus imap folder for the gnus
mailing list.
 

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com>:

> How does one set up gnus to reply to only ding@nognus when using the
> mailing list? Is it totally dependant on how the op author set their
> followup etc?

If you filter group traffic to a mail backend folder, you can set the
address of the mailing list, in the group parameters, so that it will be
used if you do a followup to an article.

Is it something like this you are looking for?

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Richard Riley]

Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:

>>>>>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com>:
>
>> How does one set up gnus to reply to only ding@nognus when using the
>> mailing list? Is it totally dependant on how the op author set their
>> followup etc?
>
> If you filter group traffic to a mail backend folder, you can set the
> address of the mailing list, in the group parameters, so that it will be
> used if you do a followup to an article.
>
> Is it something like this you are looking for?
>

Oh of course. I use posting-styles too so should have thought about
that!
 Thanks.

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com>:

> Steinar Bang <sb@dod.no> writes:
>>>>>>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com>:

>> If you filter group traffic to a mail backend folder, you can set the
>> address of the mailing list, in the group parameters, so that it will be
>> used if you do a followup to an article.

>> Is it something like this you are looking for?

> Oh of course. I use posting-styles too so should have thought about
> that!

Didn't have the time to find the correct parameter to set, but now I've
looked in my own nnimap folders for mailing lists, and I'm using the
to-address group parameter.

If you customize group parameters with `G c' on top of the group, in the
group buffer, the to-address parameter is the first setting,... or at
least it was, when I tried...

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Jason L Tibbitts III]

>>>>> "RR" == Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

RR> How does one set up gnus to reply to only ding@nognus when using the
RR> mailing list?

You folks do know that you can ask the mailing list software to provide
messages to you with a Reply-To: header, right?  It's a religious issue
so it's left up to the preferences of each user.  The default is merely
to not have one.

Send "set replyto" in the body of a message to
ding-requests@lists.math.uh.edu if you want one to be added to your
messages.

You can ask for "[ding]" to appear in the subject header as well with
"set prefix".

And also note that the list messages always have a List-ID: header; it
doesn't come from gmane.

 - J<

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Mon, 30 May 2011 11:34:52 -0500 "Jason L Tibbitts III" <tibbs@math.uh.edu> wrote: 

JLT> You folks do know that you can ask the mailing list software to provide
JLT> messages to you with a Reply-To: header, right?  It's a religious issue
JLT> so it's left up to the preferences of each user.  The default is merely
JLT> to not have one.

JLT> Send "set replyto" in the body of a message to
JLT> ding-requests@lists.math.uh.edu if you want one to be added to your
JLT> messages.

My question was how to do it through Gmane, when I don't know the
address of the list.  Since the posting account is not me (but the From
header is), would "set replyto" work anyhow?

Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> My question was how to do it through Gmane, when I don't know the
> address of the list.  Since the posting account is not me (but the From
> header is), would "set replyto" work anyhow?

If you put

Mail-Copies-To: never

in your message, the Gmane news-to-mail script will add a

Mail-Followup-To: <list address>

to the message it sends to the mailing list.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 31 May 2011 21:09:01 +0200 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote: 

LMI> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:
>> My question was how to do it through Gmane, when I don't know the
>> address of the list.  Since the posting account is not me (but the From
>> header is), would "set replyto" work anyhow?

LMI> If you put

LMI> Mail-Copies-To: never

LMI> in your message, the Gmane news-to-mail script will add a

LMI> Mail-Followup-To: <list address>

LMI> to the message it sends to the mailing list.

I also want a way to set the Reply-To header.  Could you add something
or is this not to your liking?

Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> I also want a way to set the Reply-To header.  Could you add something
> or is this not to your liking?

Gmane doesn't touch the Reply-To header you're adding.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> I also want a way to set the Reply-To header.  Could you add something
> or is this not to your liking?

Oh, you meant a Reply-To header pointing at the mailing list?  Uhm...
I'm not sure I like that idea...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Oh, you meant a Reply-To header pointing at the mailing list?  Uhm...
> I'm not sure I like that idea...

On the other hand, I'm not sure I dislike it either.

I could just add a new header, like,

Gmane-Reply-To-List: yes

that would make the news-to-mail scripts rewrite that to point to the
list? 

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 31 May 2011 22:34:15 +0200 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote: 

LMI> I could just add a new header, like,

LMI> Gmane-Reply-To-List: yes

LMI> that would make the news-to-mail scripts rewrite that to point to the
LMI> list? 

That would work.  Let me be anti-social, is all I'm saying.

Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> That would work.  Let me be anti-social, is all I'm saying.

I've now added this.  But not checked whether it works.  :-)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 31 May 2011 22:47:51 +0200 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote: 

LMI> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:
>> That would work.  Let me be anti-social, is all I'm saying.

LMI> I've now added this.  But not checked whether it works.  :-)

Consider this a test.

Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Tue, 31 May 2011 19:23:02 -0500 Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> wrote: 

TZ> On Tue, 31 May 2011 22:47:51 +0200 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote: 
LMI> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:
>>> That would work.  Let me be anti-social, is all I'm saying.

LMI> I've now added this.  But not checked whether it works.  :-)

TZ> Consider this a test.

Tested:

(setq gnus-posting-styles 
      '(
...
        ("gmane"
         (Gmane-Reply-To-List "yes")
         (Mail-Copies-To "never"))))

That sets the Reply-To to the list.  Cross-posted to gmane.discuss since
we had this discussion there too.

Thank you
Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Mon, 30 May 2011 07:34:55 -0500 Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> wrote: 

TZ> On Mon, 30 May 2011 14:22:59 +0200 Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> wrote: 
RP> List-ID ? You'd need to replace the first '.' with '@', but that's
RP> trivial ;)

TZ> (also setting Mail-Copies-To to never in this followup)

TZ> Yeah, I'll do that if Mail-Copies-To: never doesn't work.  I already
TZ> know Followup-To doesn't work.  The problems with List-ID are: it's not
TZ> an explicit contract with Gmane, so it could stop working some day; and
TZ> it requires some computation on the client side, so only programmable
TZ> clients like Gnus could do it easily.

And here's the proper Gnus solution, assuming only Gmane groups have the
word "gmane":

#+begin_src lisp
(setq gnus-posting-styles '(
;;; other things omitted
                            ("gmane"
                             (Mail-Copies-To "never"))))

#+end_src

Thanks for all the help :)
Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Ted Zlatanov]

Another try of the Mail-Copies-To header since the previous attempt was
stalled by Gmane.

Ted

Re: Gmane and mail-followup-to

[Julien Danjou]

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On Mon, May 30 2011, Ted Zlatanov wrote:

> Another try of the Mail-Copies-To header since the previous attempt was
> stalled by Gmane.

Mail-Followup-To: ding@gnus.org
Mail-Copies-To: never

Looks good to me.

-- 
Julien Danjou
❱ http://julien.danjou.info

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