setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Sean Neakums]

Most of the time, I operate with message-use-mail-followup-to set to
nil.  I now need to have it set to `use' for a certain group only.
Setting the variable in the group parameters doesn't seem to work,
probably because it is made local to the summary buffer, and can't
been seen by `message'.

I'm thinking of writing a message-setup-hook, or similar, but I don't
want to have to write a function that goes off and finds out the group
I'm in, when Gnus already knows that.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

-- 
 ////////////////  |                  | The spark of a pin
<bastard@zork.net> |   left blank.    | dropping, falling feather-like.
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\  |                  | There is too much noise.

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Kai Großjohann]

Sean Neakums <bastard@zork.net> writes:

> Most of the time, I operate with message-use-mail-followup-to set to
> nil.  I now need to have it set to `use' for a certain group only.
> Setting the variable in the group parameters doesn't seem to work,
> probably because it is made local to the summary buffer, and can't
> been seen by `message'.

See the variable gnus-newsgroup-variables.  Does that help?

kai
-- 
I like BOTH kinds of music.

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Sean Neakums]

begin  Kai Grossjohann quotation:

> Sean Neakums <bastard@zork.net> writes:
>> Most of the time, I operate with message-use-mail-followup-to set to
>> nil.  I now need to have it set to `use' for a certain group only.
>> Setting the variable in the group parameters doesn't seem to work,
>> probably because it is made local to the summary buffer, and can't
>> been seen by `message'.
> 
> See the variable gnus-newsgroup-variables.  Does that help?

It seems like it should, but it doesn't.  Or else I'm setting it
incorrectly.  What I did was add "(message-use-followup-to 'use)" to
the group parameters, and set gnus-newsgroup-variables as follows:

(setq gnus-newsgroup-variables '(message-use-followup-to))

In the summary buffer, message-use-followup-to has the local value
`use', but when I hit `f', Mail-Followup-To is not honoured, and the
message-use-followup-to variable is nil in the followup buffer.

-- 
 ////////////////  |                  | And if I had a home
<bastard@zork.net> |  spirit ditch.   | you know it'd be
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\  |                  | in a slide trombone

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Paul Jarc]

Sean Neakums <bastard@zork.net> wrote:
> begin  Kai Grossjohann quotation:
>> Sean Neakums <bastard@zork.net> writes:
>>> Most of the time, I operate with message-use-mail-followup-to set to
>>> nil.

Why?  Just curious.

> What I did was add "(message-use-followup-to 'use)" to
> the group parameters,

That's a different variable.


paul

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Sean Neakums]

begin  Paul Jarc quotation:

>> What I did was add "(message-use-followup-to 'use)" to the group
>> parameters,
> 
> That's a different variable.

It's also a typo; sorry.  The variable I set in the parameters was
message-use-mail-followup-to.

-- 
 /////////////////  |                  | The spark of a pin
<sneakums@zork.net> |  (require 'gnu)  | dropping, falling feather-like.
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\  |                  | There is too much noise.

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Sean Neakums]

begin  Sean Neakums quotation:

> begin  Paul Jarc quotation:
>>> What I did was add "(message-use-followup-to 'use)" to the group
>>> parameters,
>> That's a different variable.
> 
> It's also a typo; sorry.  The variable I set in the parameters was
> message-use-mail-followup-to.

Aha!  My stupidity *DOES* know no bounds.  Not only did I mistype
message-use-mail-followup-to as message-use-followup-to twice in my
post, I also mistyped it when I was setting gnus-newsgroup-variables.
I fixed that, and it works beautifully.

Thanks!

-- 
 /////////////////  |                  | The spark of a pin
<sneakums@zork.net> |  (require 'gnu)  | dropping, falling feather-like.
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\  |                  | There is too much noise.

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Kai Großjohann]

Sean Neakums <bastard@zork.net> writes:

> It seems like it should, but it doesn't.  Or else I'm setting it
> incorrectly.  What I did was add "(message-use-followup-to 'use)" to
> the group parameters, and set gnus-newsgroup-variables as follows:
>
> (setq gnus-newsgroup-variables '(message-use-followup-to))
>
> In the summary buffer, message-use-followup-to has the local value
> `use', but when I hit `f', Mail-Followup-To is not honoured, and the
> message-use-followup-to variable is nil in the followup buffer.

Maybe Gnus has a bug?

kai
-- 
I like BOTH kinds of music.

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Sean Neakums]

begin  Kai Grossjohann quotation:

> Sean Neakums <bastard@zork.net> writes:
>> It seems like it should, but it doesn't.  Or else I'm setting it
>> incorrectly.  What I did was add "(message-use-followup-to 'use)" to
>> the group parameters, and set gnus-newsgroup-variables as follows:
>> 
>> (setq gnus-newsgroup-variables '(message-use-followup-to))
>> 
>> In the summary buffer, message-use-followup-to has the local value
>> `use', but when I hit `f', Mail-Followup-To is not honoured, and the
>> message-use-followup-to variable is nil in the followup buffer.
> 
> Maybe Gnus has a bug?

As it turns out, the bug was internal to Neakums.  (See my
self-followup).

However, gnus-newsgroup-variables could probably do with having a
documentation string.  Some thing along the lines of:

  gnus-newsgroup-variables: A list of summary-buffer-local variables
  that should be made global while the summary buffer exists.  This
  variable can be used to set variables in the group parameters while
  still allowing them to affect operations done in other buffers.

Probably needs better wording, but I think that's the gist of it.

-- 
 /////////////////  |                  | The spark of a pin
<sneakums@zork.net> |  (require 'gnu)  | dropping, falling feather-like.
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\  |                  | There is too much noise.

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[ShengHuo ZHU]

Sean Neakums <sneakums@zork.net> writes:

[...]

> However, gnus-newsgroup-variables could probably do with having a
> documentation string.  Some thing along the lines of:
>
>   gnus-newsgroup-variables: A list of summary-buffer-local variables
>   that should be made global while the summary buffer exists.  This
>   variable can be used to set variables in the group parameters while
>   still allowing them to affect operations done in other buffers.
>
> Probably needs better wording, but I think that's the gist of it.

Fixed.

ShengHuo

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Matt Armstrong]

Sean Neakums <bastard@zork.net> writes:

> Most of the time, I operate with message-use-mail-followup-to set to
> nil.  I now need to have it set to `use' for a certain group only.

Hey Sean, I'm curious why you'd want to not use the Mail-Followup-To:
header when the sender bothered to include it.

-- 
matt

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Kai Großjohann]

Sean Neakums <sneakums@zork.net> writes:

> However, gnus-newsgroup-variables could probably do with having a
> documentation string.

You don't like the current docstring?

/----
| gnus-newsgroup-variables's value is nil
| 
| Documentation:
| Variables that have separate values in the newsgroups.
| 
| Defined in `gnus-sum'.
| 
| [back]
\----


kai
-- 
I like BOTH kinds of music.

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Sean Neakums]

begin  Matt Armstrong quotation:

> Sean Neakums <bastard@zork.net> writes:
>> Most of the time, I operate with message-use-mail-followup-to set
>> to nil.  I now need to have it set to `use' for a certain group
>> only.
> 
> Hey Sean, I'm curious why you'd want to not use the Mail-Followup-To:
> header when the sender bothered to include it.

Because they are rarely set correctly.  

-- 
 /////////////////  |                  | The spark of a pin
<sneakums@zork.net> |  (require 'gnu)  | dropping, falling feather-like.
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\  |                  | There is too much noise.

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Matt Armstrong]

Sean Neakums <sneakums@zork.net> writes:

> begin  Matt Armstrong quotation:
>
>> Sean Neakums <bastard@zork.net> writes:
>>> Most of the time, I operate with message-use-mail-followup-to set
>>> to nil.  I now need to have it set to `use' for a certain group
>>> only.
>> 
>> Hey Sean, I'm curious why you'd want to not use the Mail-Followup-To:
>> header when the sender bothered to include it.
>
> Because they are rarely set correctly.  

Interesting -- I haven't found that to be true, but maybe you frequent
different lists than I do.  ;-)

-- 
matt

  Piki, you handsome cat, rest in peace  http://www.lickey.com/piki/

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Josh Huber]

"Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1008518709.100add@lickey.com> writes:

>> Because they are rarely set correctly.  
>
> Interesting -- I haven't found that to be true, but maybe you frequent
> different lists than I do.  ;-)

Yes, it's been my experience that people who do set the
Mail-Followup-To header set it correctly, unless they're in the
process of trying to figure out the subscribe command in mutt...

What MUAs generate the MFT header?  I know mutt does, and now oort
does.  I believe that qmail can generate the header for you
automatically as well.

If someone's MFT header is wrong, perhaps you should tell them since
they're configuration is probably broken.

Another thing to note is this:  how do you know if it's broken?
Perhaps the person who set it wanted it that way?

ttyl,
-- 
Josh Huber

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Paul Jarc]

Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> wrote:
> Another thing to note is this:  how do you know if it's broken?
> Perhaps the person who set it wanted it that way?

One common way it can be set badly: A sends a message to the list with
no MFT.  B sends a followup and doesn't bother removing A's address.
B's mailer generates MFT pointing to A and the list.  This will become
less common as more mailers support MFT in outgoing messages.


paul

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Josh Huber]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> One common way it can be set badly: A sends a message to the list
> with no MFT.  B sends a followup and doesn't bother removing A's
> address.  B's mailer generates MFT pointing to A and the list.  This
> will become less common as more mailers support MFT in outgoing
> messages.

True, this is relatively common.  Most of the lists I'm on I guess are
full of people using mutt or Gnus. :)

ttyl,

-- 
Josh Huber

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Matt Armstrong]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> wrote:
>> Another thing to note is this:  how do you know if it's broken?
>> Perhaps the person who set it wanted it that way?
>
> One common way it can be set badly: A sends a message to the list
> with no MFT.  B sends a followup and doesn't bother removing A's
> address.  B's mailer generates MFT pointing to A and the list.  This
> will become less common as more mailers support MFT in outgoing
> messages.

Is worth noting that for lists that allow posts from anyone (such as
ding@gnus.org), B is actually doing the right thing here.  Who is to
say that A is even subscribed?

-- 
matt

  Piki, you handsome cat, rest in peace  http://www.lickey.com/piki/

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Paul Jarc]

"Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1008538001.92c6db@lickey.com> wrote:
> prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>> One common way it can be set badly: A sends a message to the list
>> with no MFT.  B sends a followup and doesn't bother removing A's
>> address.  B's mailer generates MFT pointing to A and the list.  This
>> will become less common as more mailers support MFT in outgoing
>> messages.
>
> Is worth noting that for lists that allow posts from anyone (such as
> ding@gnus.org), B is actually doing the right thing here.

Well, B's mailer is doing the right thing.  B could be said to be
doing the right thing if ey don't know whether A is subscribed, or the
wrong thing if ey knows that A is subscribed.  The lack of MFT could
mean that the sender wants a copy, or just that the sender doesn't
know about MFT.  So some human intelligence is appropriate where
available.


paul

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Matt Armstrong]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1008538001.92c6db@lickey.com> wrote:
>> prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>>> One common way it can be set badly: A sends a message to the list
>>> with no MFT.  B sends a followup and doesn't bother removing A's
>>> address.  B's mailer generates MFT pointing to A and the list.  This
>>> will become less common as more mailers support MFT in outgoing
>>> messages.
>>
>> Is worth noting that for lists that allow posts from anyone (such as
>> ding@gnus.org), B is actually doing the right thing here.
>
> Well, B's mailer is doing the right thing.  B could be said to be
> doing the right thing if ey don't know whether A is subscribed, or
> the wrong thing if ey knows that A is subscribed.  The lack of MFT
> could mean that the sender wants a copy, or just that the sender
> doesn't know about MFT.  So some human intelligence is appropriate
> where available.

I see what you're saying.  I'll point out that if you want to be nice,
you're probably already using this human intelligence to cull known
list members from the To: and Cc: headers of your replies anyway.
This has the nice side effect of removing them from the MFT headers
your MUA subsequently generates.

As a side note, I vaguely recall that majordomo 2 is smart enough to
cull known list members from the To: and Cc: lists of list mail.  It
could do the same for MFT.

-- 
matt

  Piki, you handsome cat, rest in peace  http://www.lickey.com/piki/

Re: setting message-use-mail-followup-to for some groups only

[Paul Jarc]

"Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1008547021.9df102@lickey.com> wrote:
> As a side note, I vaguely recall that majordomo 2 is smart enough to
> cull known list members from the To: and Cc: lists of list mail.  It
> could do the same for MFT.

That would only be useful as a workaround for the current lack of
widespread adoption of MFT.  I can imagine it might trigger another
round of "this header field is for posters to set, not MLMs, so keep
your hands off, really, this time".


paul