gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

[Harry Putnam]

I've been running this code for some time but lately I've been
noticing it doesn't seem to behave uniformly:

;;;**** extra header stuff *****
     (setq gnus-extra-headers
           '(To Newsgroups  Keywords))
     (setq nnmail-extra-headers gnus-extra-headers)
          (setq gnus-ignored-from-addresses
           "Harry Putnam")
;;;***** end extra header ******

I'm only concerned here with the last two lines, but wasn't sure if
the others may have bearing.

Some messages I see my `From' header suppressed and some not.

On this group alone I see several both ways:
Message:

  From: Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>
  Subject: small agent irritation
  To: ding@gnus.org
  Date: 16 Sep 2000 13:22:06 -0700
  Message-ID: <m2lmwsxf2p.fsf@gnus-5.8.8-cvs.now.playing>

Shows up in my summary buffer as:

7!  16-Sep+[  27: -> ding@gnus.org    ] small agent irritation
This is the desired output.

Where as

  From: Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>
  Subject: Re: small agent irritation
  To: ding@gnus.org
  Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 14:35:11 -0700
  Message-ID: <20000916143511.A7522@reader.ptw.com>

Shows up as:
 5!  16-Sep+        [  41: Harry Putnam        ] 


The part that is supposed to be ignored looks identicle in either
post.  I can see they were posted with different apps.  The first
being gnus, the second being mutt. So is gnus looking at something
else besides the `From' header to determine what to ignore?

Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

[ShengHuo ZHU]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

> The part that is supposed to be ignored looks identicle in either
> post.  I can see they were posted with different apps.  The first
> being gnus, the second being mutt. So is gnus looking at something
> else besides the `From' header to determine what to ignore?

What do you mean "being mutt"?

If you use nnml as the backend, the To header should be in the
.overview file. If not, use M-x nnml-generate-nov-databases.

ShengHuo

Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

[Lloyd Zusman]

ShengHuo ZHU <zsh@cs.rochester.edu> writes:

> Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:
> 
> > The part that is supposed to be ignored looks identicle in either
> > post.  I can see they were posted with different apps.  The first
> > being gnus, the second being mutt. So is gnus looking at something
> > else besides the `From' header to determine what to ignore?
> 
> What do you mean "being mutt"?

He means that one message was posted from Gnus, and the other message
was posted from an application called `mutt', which is a popular
public domain mailer program.


> [ ... ]

-- 
 Lloyd Zusman
 ljz@asfast.com

Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

[ShengHuo ZHU]

Lloyd Zusman <ljz@asfast.com> writes:

> ShengHuo ZHU <zsh@cs.rochester.edu> writes:
> 
> > Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:
> > 
> > > The part that is supposed to be ignored looks identicle in either
> > > post.  I can see they were posted with different apps.  The first
> > > being gnus, the second being mutt. So is gnus looking at something
> > > else besides the `From' header to determine what to ignore?
> > 
> > What do you mean "being mutt"?
> 
> He means that one message was posted from Gnus, and the other message
> was posted from an application called `mutt', which is a popular
> public domain mailer program.

I know it is a mailer.  Which program saves the second copy? How?
To which backend is it saved?

ShengHuo

Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

[Harry Putnam]

On Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 10:57:35PM -0400, ShengHuo ZHU wrote:

[...]

> 
> What do you mean "being mutt"?
> 
> If you use nnml as the backend, the To header should be in the
> .overview file. If not, use M-x nnml-generate-nov-databases.

Cool... that cleared it up nicely

ShengHuo ZHU <zsh@cs.rochester.edu> writes:


[...]

> > > > The part that is supposed to be ignored looks identicle in either
> > > > post.  I can see they were posted with different apps.  The first
> > > > being gnus, the second being mutt. So is gnus looking at something
> > > > else besides the `From' header to determine what to ignore?
> > > 
> > > What do you mean "being mutt"?
> > 
> > He means that one message was posted from Gnus, and the other message
> > was posted from an application called `mutt', which is a popular
> > public domain mailer program.
> 
> I know it is a mailer.  Which program saves the second copy? How?
> To which backend is it saved?

Sorry about the lack of clarity:  The two posts I mentioned were
posted with different applications but they were retrieved by
fetchmail and sorted/saved by gnus in nnml backend.  So the same
applications handled them on the incoming side.  And gnus was the only
application involved in splitting and saving to nnml groups.

Regenerating the data base in my ding group cleaned it up.  But still
curious why that would happen, since as mentioned, gnus was the only
app involved in saving.

I've posted this with mutt to see if gnus will show the header
differently again when I download the message resent by  ding list and
incorporate it into my gnus setup. (with gnus)

Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

[ShengHuo ZHU]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

> Sorry about the lack of clarity:  The two posts I mentioned were
> posted with different applications but they were retrieved by
> fetchmail and sorted/saved by gnus in nnml backend.  So the same
> applications handled them on the incoming side.  And gnus was the only
> application involved in splitting and saving to nnml groups.

Weird. 

> Regenerating the data base in my ding group cleaned it up.  But still
> curious why that would happen, since as mentioned, gnus was the only
> app involved in saving.
> 
> I've posted this with mutt to see if gnus will show the header
> differently again when I download the message resent by  ding list and
> incorporate it into my gnus setup. (with gnus)

Does it show the different header again?

ShengHuo

Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

[Harry Putnam]

ShengHuo ZHU <zsh@cs.rochester.edu> writes:

> > I've posted this with mutt to see if gnus will show the header
> > differently again when I download the message resent by  ding list and
> > incorporate it into my gnus setup. (with gnus)
> 
> Does it show the different header again?

Yes it does.  Here are the two [partial] headers:

Posted with mutt:
   From: Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>
   Subject: Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler
   To: ding@gnus.org
   Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 03:52:57 -0700
   Message-ID: <20001003035257.A9495@reader.ptw.com>

Posted with gnus

   From: Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>
   Subject: Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler
   To: ding@gnus.org
   Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 03:52:57 -0700
   Message-ID: <20001003035257.A9495@reader.ptw.com>


Gnus has got to be looking at something bysides "From: " to determine
what to ignore.  Do you know what else gnus looks at?

Summary buffer view (in gnus)  of most recent message posted with
mutt.

 2R  03-Oct+                [  46: Harry Putnam        ] 

Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

[ShengHuo ZHU]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

> ShengHuo ZHU <zsh@cs.rochester.edu> writes:
> 
> > > I've posted this with mutt to see if gnus will show the header
> > > differently again when I download the message resent by  ding list and
> > > incorporate it into my gnus setup. (with gnus)
> > 
> > Does it show the different header again?
> 
> Yes it does.  Here are the two [partial] headers:
> 
> Posted with mutt:
>    From: Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>
>    Subject: Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler
>    To: ding@gnus.org
>    Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 03:52:57 -0700
>    Message-ID: <20001003035257.A9495@reader.ptw.com>
> 
> Posted with gnus
> 
>    From: Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>
>    Subject: Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler
>    To: ding@gnus.org
>    Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 03:52:57 -0700
>    Message-ID: <20001003035257.A9495@reader.ptw.com>

They are the exact same.  Are you sure you copy them from different
messages?

> Gnus has got to be looking at something bysides "From: " to determine
> what to ignore.  Do you know what else gnus looks at?

Actually, Gnus is also looking for the extra header "To".  So if the
.overview doesn't contain it, Gnus will still show "From".  Could you
check the .overview to see if "To: ding@gnus.org" exists in the entry?

ShengHuo

Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

[Harry Putnam]

ShengHuo ZHU <zsh@cs.rochester.edu> writes:

> Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:
> 
> > ShengHuo ZHU <zsh@cs.rochester.edu> writes:
> > 
> > > > I've posted this with mutt to see if gnus will show the header
> > > > differently again when I download the message resent by  ding list and
> > > > incorporate it into my gnus setup. (with gnus)
> > > 
> > > Does it show the different header again?
> > 
> > Yes it does.  Here are the two [partial] headers:
> > 
> > Posted with mutt:
> >    From: Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>
> >    Subject: Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler
> >    To: ding@gnus.org
> >    Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 03:52:57 -0700
> >    Message-ID: <20001003035257.A9495@reader.ptw.com>
> > 
> > Posted with gnus
> > 
> >    From: Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>
> >    Subject: Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler
> >    To: ding@gnus.org
> >    Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 03:52:57 -0700
> >    Message-ID: <20001003035257.A9495@reader.ptw.com>
> 
> They are the exact same.  Are you sure you copy them from different
> messages?

Whoops ... so much for my killring skills... Here is the correct first
one:

  From: Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>
  Subject: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler
  To: ding@gnus.org
  Date: 02 Oct 2000 18:29:23 -0700
  Message-ID: <m2vgva1zm4.fsf@pgnus-5.8.8-cvs.now.playing>

> 
> > Gnus has got to be looking at something bysides "From: " to determine
> > what to ignore.  Do you know what else gnus looks at?
> 
> Actually, Gnus is also looking for the extra header "To".  So if the
> .overview doesn't contain it, Gnus will still show "From".  Could you
> check the .overview to see if "To: ding@gnus.org" exists in the entry?
> 
> ShengHuo

OK,, This is getting a little confusing, with me making mistakes on
this end.  Now for clarity:  My most recent post was posted with gnus
and it too shows the the From header 

Message-ID: <m2em1y15cs.fsf@pgnus-5.8.8-cvs.now.playing>

The overview file entry broken into lines for clarity:
  3723	Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler	
  Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>	
  03 Oct 2000 05:22:59 -0700	
  <m2em1y15cs.fsf@pgnus-5.8.8-cvs.now.playing>	
  <m2vgva1zm4.fsf@pgnus-5.8.8-cvs.now.playing> 
  <200010030241.e932fGp02918@zsh.2y.net> 
  <ltbsx2y796.fsf@asfast.com> 
  <200010030257.e932vZ602990@zsh.2y.net> 
  <20001003035257.A9495@reader.ptw.com> 
  <200010031213.e93CDBR05256@zsh.2y.net>	1050	34	
  Xref: reader.ptw.com ding2:3723	

No "To" header


Now running nnml-regenerate-nov-databases-1 on the ding group I get:

     3723	Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler	
     Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>	
     03 Oct 2000 05:22:59 -0700	
     <m2em1y15cs.fsf@pgnus-5.8.8-cvs.now.playing>	
     <m2vgva1zm4.fsf@pgnus-5.8.8-cvs.now.playing> 
     <200010030241.e932fGp02918@zsh.2y.net> 
     <ltbsx2y796.fsf@asfast.com> 
     <200010030257.e932vZ602990@zsh.2y.net> 
     <20001003035257.A9495@reader.ptw.com> 
     <200010031213.e93CDBR05256@zsh.2y.net>	1050	34	
     Xref: reader.ptw.com ding2:3723	To: ding@gnus.org	

Still no "To" header yet the message now appears as I expect in
summary buffer:

 2!  03-Oct+                        [  34: -> ding@gnus.org    ] 
 1!  03-Oct                             [  39: ShengHuo ZHU   


I am now leaving for work so will not be able to reply to this thread
until this evening.  Thanks for your help thus far.

Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

[Kai Großjohann]

On 02 Oct 2000, Harry Putnam wrote:

>   Date: 16 Sep 2000 13:22:06 -0700
>   Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 14:35:11 -0700

The date header is different.  Not sure whether this is the problem,
but you can easily check by inserting a Mutt-style Date header into a
Gnus posting and by inserting a Gnus-style Date header into a Mutt
posting.

I think you also want to delete Date from message-deletable-headers
(temporarily) for testing.

But ShengHuo is right: you sent both posts via mail, I presume, but
how did the copy arrive in your Gnus group that you are looking at?
Are you looking at the copy that's being sent to you via the mailing
list?  Or are you maybe looking at a Gcc'd or Bcc'd or Fcc'd copy?

kai
-- 
I like BOTH kinds of music.

Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

[Harry Putnam]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> On 02 Oct 2000, Harry Putnam wrote:
> 
> >   Date: 16 Sep 2000 13:22:06 -0700
> >   Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 14:35:11 -0700
> 
> The date header is different.  Not sure whether this is the problem,

I think I've found the source of the problem.  And not related to date
or to which app I'm posting from.

[...]

> 
> But ShengHuo is right: you sent both posts via mail, I presume, but
> how did the copy arrive in your Gnus group that you are looking at?
> Are you looking at the copy that's being sent to you via the mailing
> list?  Or are you maybe looking at a Gcc'd or Bcc'd or Fcc'd copy?

My post explaining in detail that I'm viewing incoming mail from ding
list server was probably not on your server when you posted but once
more for clarity:

I'm sending from two different apps but viewing only in gnus after
fetching incoming mail form ding list server.  Not gcc or some other
method of viewing an archive or outbox type setup.

I think I've `outwitted myself' or `shot myself in the foot' which
ever is the better metaphor .... Here's how:

I often do batch fetch/send from the command line while running an
unplugged gnus ( a trick learned from larsi). But occasionally will
incorporate mail into a plugged gnus with `g'.  But when batching,
over time, I'd noticed the batch commands loading lots of exotic
unecessary stuff that isn't needed for fetching and sending but is in
.gnus so gets loaded when .gnus is loaded.  Things like loading nnir,
bbdb, mailcrypt, a customization file.  None needed for a command line
interface to fetch/send sort mail.

One day I happened to remember the old rule.  If a ~/.gnus.el is present
it will be loaded in preference to a ~/.gnus.  A light bulb went on
and a half-assed hacker went to work.

I hacked up a wrapper script that called the batch commands after
first stripping certain needed lines from `~/.gnus' and compiling them
into a temporary `~/.gnus.el' that lives only as long as the batch
fetch/send runs.  Compiled by running sed against ~/.gnus which has
certain lines marked with `;;-b' (b for batch) at the end.  These
lines are stipped by sed and plopped into ~/.gnus.el just before the
batch script is run.  The batch command reads only from ~/.gnus.el and
removes it  when it ends.

You may guess that I neglected to include the code about which header
to ignore in summary buffer and which extra headers to put in
.overview, in the lines marked with `;;-b'.  So the `.gnus.el' that was
used for batch commands didn't contain the necessary code.

Only today did I realize that the batch commands put stuff into the
.overview file in the same way that a running gnus does.  ... duh.

What finally woke me up was when ShengHuo asked me to check the
.overview file (this morning here) and I found some messages had the
`To' header and some didn't.  Still didn't completely click until
returning home form work I ran a batch fetch which stalled because I
still had the .overview file in a buffer.  The batch script complained
that a buffer was visiting an .overview file.  Suddenly I was forced
to see what I had been doing.  Writing to the .overview files with two
different sets of orders.

Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

[Kai Großjohann]

I wonder: does the variable noninteractive have suitable values when
running Gnus normally or via the batch thing?  You might be able to
use that, so you don't have to use two .gnus files.

Like so:

(unless noninteractive
  ..for.interactive.use.only..)

(when noninteractive
  ..for.batch.use.only..)

kai
-- 
I like BOTH kinds of music.

Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

[Harry Putnam]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> I wonder: does the variable noninteractive have suitable values when
> running Gnus normally or via the batch thing?  You might be able to
> use that, so you don't have to use two .gnus files.
> 
> Like so:
> 
> (unless noninteractive
>   ..for.interactive.use.only..)
> 
> (when noninteractive
>   ..for.batch.use.only..)

Looks like it could work too.  But actually looks  like more work
than just appending a `;;-b' to the appropriate lines. 

It wasn't really the fact that I used two files that caused the
trouble, so much as that I overlooked some critcal lines.  Could have
done that with the above technique too.

Re: gnus-ignored-from-addresses puzzler

[Kai Großjohann]

On 04 Oct 2000, Harry Putnam wrote:

> It wasn't really the fact that I used two files that caused the
> trouble, so much as that I overlooked some critcal lines.  Could
> have done that with the above technique too.

Of course.  Silly me.

kai
-- 
I like BOTH kinds of music.