A paper manual

A paper manual

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

I'm sitting here flipping through the illustrated Gnus manual, and I
was thinking it might be nice to have it in a, eh, more permanent
format.  Like -- bound properly and stuff.

Now, I'm not saying I'm going to publish a bound version of the
manual, but I wonder whether there's any interest in having something
like that.  In one way, it's somewhat impractical -- infomation on
dead, flat trees get outdated after a millisecond, and people can
always print the thing out themselves.  And it will probably be heavy
-- the one I have is 1kg.  But -- if I were to do something like that,
would any one of you like to buy one if the price was not
unreasonable? 

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: A paper manual

[Kai Haberzettl]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

[...]
> But -- if I were to do something like that,
> would any one of you like to buy one if the price was not
> unreasonable? 

I would probably buy it.

Kai
-- 
The other day I was playing poker with Tarot cards. 
I got a full house and four people died.   --Steven Wright

Re: A paper manual

[Jes Sorensen]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

Lars> I'm sitting here flipping through the illustrated Gnus manual,
Lars> and I was thinking it might be nice to have it in a, eh, more
Lars> permanent format.  Like -- bound properly and stuff.

Lars> Now, I'm not saying I'm going to publish a bound version of the
Lars> manual, but I wonder whether there's any interest in having
Lars> something like that.  In one way, it's somewhat impractical --
Lars> infomation on dead, flat trees get outdated after a millisecond,
Lars> and people can always print the thing out themselves.  And it
Lars> will probably be heavy -- the one I have is 1kg.  But -- if I
Lars> were to do something like that, would any one of you like to buy
Lars> one if the price was not unreasonable?

Yes

Jes
.

Re: A paper manual

[Norman Walsh]

| Now, I'm not saying I'm going to publish a bound version of the
| manual, but I wonder whether there's any interest in having something

Hmmm.  Leather bound, on fine paper, set by hand.  Nah. I'm
looking for a letterpress project, but I don't think that's it ;-)

                                        Cheers,
                                          norm
-- 
Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>      | "Bother", said Pooh, as he deleted
http://nwalsh.com/                 | his root directory.

Re: A paper manual

[William M. Perry]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

> I'm sitting here flipping through the illustrated Gnus manual, and I
> was thinking it might be nice to have it in a, eh, more permanent
> format.  Like -- bound properly and stuff.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying I'm going to publish a bound version of the manual,
> but I wonder whether there's any interest in having something like that.
> In one way, it's somewhat impractical -- infomation on dead, flat trees
> get outdated after a millisecond, and people can always print the thing
> out themselves.  And it will probably be heavy -- the one I have is 1kg.
> But -- if I were to do something like that, would any one of you like to
> buy one if the price was not unreasonable?

  Will the proceeds go to fund the world tour?  I'd buy one.  You'll have
to come up with some spiffy cover art though. :)

  I used to work at a small printshop back in the dark ages, so could
probably get a deal on printing them.  We could do dual runs or something,
and I could take care of shipping to people in the united states, unless
postage is REAL cheap from overseas.

  To get a hardbound copy, you'd probably have to go to a 'vanity press',
and I'm not sure how expensive that is.  We did some hardbound yearbooks or 
something one year that turned out nice, but I don't remember how much we
charged.

-Bill P.

Re: A paper manual

[Karel Sprenger]

Hi,

At 12:52 9-10-98 +0200, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:
>I'm sitting here flipping through the illustrated Gnus manual, and I
>was thinking it might be nice to have it in a, eh, more permanent
>format.  Like -- bound properly and stuff.
>
>Now, I'm not saying I'm going to publish a bound version of the
>manual, but I wonder whether there's any interest in having something
>like that.  In one way, it's somewhat impractical -- infomation on
>dead, flat trees get outdated after a millisecond, and people can
>always print the thing out themselves.  And it will probably be heavy
>-- the one I have is 1kg.  But -- if I were to do something like that,
>would any one of you like to buy one if the price was not
>unreasonable? 
>

I'd buy one if it were less heavy than the single-sided printed manual :-)
It certainly deserves a proper book!  Wouldn't O'Reilly be interested?  Or
is that not a "proper" organization?

Cheers,
Karel Sprenger <ks@ic.uva.nl>               | phone: +31-20-525 2302
Informatiseringscentrum                     |        +31-20-525 2741
Universiteit van Amsterdam                  | fax  : +31-20-525 2084
Turfdraagsterpad 9, NL-1012 XT  AMSTERDAM   | home : +31-20-670 0942
*** PGP Public Key available on servers *** | email: <cjas@xs4all.nl>

Re: A paper manual

[Alan Shutko]

>>>>> "K" == Karel Sprenger <ks@ic.uva.nl> writes:

K> I'd buy one if it were less heavy than the single-sided printed
K> manual :-) It certainly deserves a proper book!  Wouldn't O'Reilly
K> be interested?  Or is that not a "proper" organization?

I seem to recall that O'Reilly said that sales of GPLed books really
weren't that much last time they tried it, and they weren't
interested.  But the FSF does have printing connections for their
various printerd manuals.. maybe check with whoever's in charge of
those?

-- 
Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> - By consent of the corrupted
Weekend, where are you?

Re: A paper manual

[Harry Putnam]

Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> writes:

> >>>>> "K" == Karel Sprenger <ks@ic.uva.nl> writes:
> 
> K> I'd buy one if it were less heavy than the single-sided printed
> K> manual :-) It certainly deserves a proper book!  Wouldn't O'Reilly
> K> be interested?  Or is that not a "proper" organization?
> 
> I seem to recall that O'Reilly said that sales of GPLed books really
> weren't that much last time they tried it, and they weren't
> interested.  But the FSF does have printing connections for their
> various printerd manuals.. maybe check with whoever's in charge of
> those?

Count me in, even if it gets out of date pretty fast. (esp. with all
the miming  going on) Still many things remain the same or similar. I
still use a refcard based on 5.4.56.  an antique, but more is still in
use than not in use, by a good margin.

-- 
Harry Putnam reader@newsguy.com  
Running Redhat Linux-5.1

Re: A paper manual

[Jeremy D. Zawodny]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

> But -- if I were to do something like that, would any one of you
> like to buy one if the price was not unreasonable?

Certainly.

The changes usually are THAT drastic from version to version... I've
already printed and punched holes in the manuals for elisp, gnus, and
various other tools. It's rather labor intensive, and I'd rather avoid
it in some cases...

Jeremy
-- 
Jeremy D. Zawodny                Web Geek, Perl Hacker, etc.
http://www.wcnet.org/~jzawodn/   jzawodn@wcnet.org

LOAD "LINUX",8,1

Re: A paper manual

[Jeremy D. Zawodny]

jzawodn@wcnet.org (Jeremy D. Zawodny) writes:

> The changes usually are THAT drastic from version to version...

Ugh. Make that "AREN'T"... To bad ispell doesn't catch that. :-(

Jeremy
-- 
Jeremy D. Zawodny                Web Geek, Perl Hacker, etc.
http://www.wcnet.org/~jzawodn/   jzawodn@wcnet.org

LOAD "LINUX",8,1

Re: A paper manual

[David Hedbor]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

> -- the one I have is 1kg.  But -- if I were to do something like that,
> would any one of you like to buy one if the price was not
> unreasonable? 

I would buy one. Although you lack the search capabilities, I find
that reading a lot of text is easier from books.

-- 
[ Below is a random fortune, which is unrelated to the above message. ]
Function reject.

Re: A paper manual

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

wmperry@aventail.com (William M. Perry) writes:

>   I used to work at a small printshop back in the dark ages, so could
> probably get a deal on printing them.  We could do dual runs or something,
> and I could take care of shipping to people in the united states, unless
> postage is REAL cheap from overseas.

Air mail for a k of paper over the water is expen$ive, so a dual run
would be interesting.

>   To get a hardbound copy, you'd probably have to go to a 'vanity press',
> and I'm not sure how expensive that is.  We did some hardbound yearbooks or 
> something one year that turned out nice, but I don't remember how much we
> charged.

Er...  could you check?  There's no hurry or anything, though; I'll
have to futz around quite a bit on my end before anything like this is
going to happen.  (If it is.  :-)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: A paper manual

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> writes:

> I seem to recall that O'Reilly said that sales of GPLed books really
> weren't that much last time they tried it, and they weren't
> interested.

I don't really see a huge marked for Gnus manuals.  :-)

> But the FSF does have printing connections for their various
> printerd manuals.. maybe check with whoever's in charge of those?

That's definitely an idea.  

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: A paper manual

[Per Abrahamsen]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> writes:
> 
> > I seem to recall that O'Reilly said that sales of GPLed books really
> > weren't that much last time they tried it, and they weren't
> > interested.
> 
> I don't really see a huge marked for Gnus manuals.  :-)

For the #8 newsreader?  Don't be too sure of that.

For comparison, see the latest series of O'Reilly manuals:

	<URL: http://magic.hurrah.com/~ryan/ora.html>

Re: A paper manual

[SL Baur]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes in ding@gnus.org:

> I'm sitting here flipping through the illustrated Gnus manual, and I
> was thinking it might be nice to have it in a, eh, more permanent
> format.  Like -- bound properly and stuff.

> Now, I'm not saying I'm going to publish a bound version of the
> manual, but I wonder whether there's any interest in having something
> like that.

Yes, especially if such a volume were done after native MIME has
stabilized.

Re: A paper manual

[Chris Tessone]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

    Lars> have is 1kg.  But -- if I were to do something like that,
    Lars> would any one of you like to buy one if the price was not
    Lars> unreasonable?

For me, with access to a nice fast laser printer and lots of paper?
Hell no. But I'm willing to bet others might.

Chris

-- 
Chris Tessone         tessone@fnal.gov         tessone@imsa.edu
PH/sendmail SNPC        System Administration        Perl/Shell
All you need is Perl, love. Perl is all you need.
http://www.imsa.edu/~tessone/

Re: A paper manual

[William Perry]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> wmperry@aventail.com (William M. Perry) writes:
> 
> >   I used to work at a small printshop back in the dark ages, so could
> > probably get a deal on printing them.  We could do dual runs or something,
> > and I could take care of shipping to people in the united states, unless
> > postage is REAL cheap from overseas.
> 
> Air mail for a k of paper over the water is expen$ive, so a dual run
> would be interesting.

  Plus I'd get one faster!  :)

> >   To get a hardbound copy, you'd probably have to go to a 'vanity
> > press', and I'm not sure how expensive that is.  We did some hardbound
> > yearbooks or something one year that turned out nice, but I don't
> > remember how much we charged.
> 
> Er...  could you check?  There's no hurry or anything, though; I'll
> have to futz around quite a bit on my end before anything like this is
> going to happen.  (If it is.  :-)

  I need to talk to them about saving me some boxes and stuff for my
imminent move (last one for a while thank the gods), so I will ask them
then.  About how big is the LaTeX'd version of the manual, page wise?  I
don't have LaTeX on any of my systems right now, so can't check.  If
someone can give me the general page count, I can start the ball rolling.

  Would we want _real_ hardcover, or should I get a range of quotes?

-Bill P.

Re: A paper manual

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

William Perry <wmperry@aventail.com> writes:

>   I need to talk to them about saving me some boxes and stuff for my
> imminent move (last one for a while thank the gods), so I will ask them
> then.  About how big is the LaTeX'd version of the manual, page
> wise?

Well, I understand that one can use smaller point sizes if one use
better paper and stuff, but the manual at the moment is ~300 pages.

>   Would we want _real_ hardcover, or should I get a range of quotes?

Ooh.  A range of quotes would be nice.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: A paper manual

[William M. Perry]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> William Perry <wmperry@aventail.com> writes:
> 
> >   I need to talk to them about saving me some boxes and stuff for my
> > imminent move (last one for a while thank the gods), so I will ask them
> > then.  About how big is the LaTeX'd version of the manual, page
> > wise?
> 
> Well, I understand that one can use smaller point sizes if one use
> better paper and stuff, but the manual at the moment is ~300 pages.
> 
> >   Would we want _real_ hardcover, or should I get a range of quotes?
> 
> Ooh.  A range of quotes would be nice.

  Well, I talked to them yesterday, and they said for anything under ~500
copies, the price would be prohibitive.  For a book that large, they'd have 
to do it on a big press (print 4 8.5x11 sheets on one large one and
trim/fold, etc), which still means 75 separate plates for the press, and
they cost ~$10 apiece.  That would be a one-time charge, but a biggie.
Then you have minimum charges for press time (setup & cleanup are pretty
static, and runs of 100-200 are hardly worth doing).

  Suggested kinkos. :(

-Bill P.

Re: A paper manual

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

wmperry@aventail.com (William M. Perry) writes:

>   Well, I talked to them yesterday, and they said for anything under ~500
> copies, the price would be prohibitive.  For a book that large, they'd have 
> to do it on a big press (print 4 8.5x11 sheets on one large one and
> trim/fold, etc), which still means 75 separate plates for the press, and
> they cost ~$10 apiece.  That would be a one-time charge, but a biggie.
> Then you have minimum charges for press time (setup & cleanup are pretty
> static, and runs of 100-200 are hardly worth doing).

Right.  I was afraid one would have to do Serious Print Runs to get
anything resembling a reasonable price...

Oh, well.  Perhaps the FSF will do one.  :-)

Thanks for investigating.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen