From: Ulrik Buchholtz <ulrikbu...@gmail.com>
To: Homotopy Type Theory <HomotopyT...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [HoTT] Identity versus equality
Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 05:53:21 -0700 (PDT) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <e47e6263-d0eb-4882-ab07-e31483095bd4@googlegroups.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <8C57894C7413F04A98DDF5629FEC90B1652F563A@Pli.gst.uqam.ca>
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3176 bytes --]
Dear André,
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 10:18:11 PM UTC+2, joyal wrote:
> But I find it frustrating that I cant do my everyday mathematics with it.
>
> For example, I cannot say
>
> (1) Let X:\Delta^{op}---->Type be a simplicial type;
>
Let me remind everyone that we don't have a proof that it's impossible to
define simplicial types in book HoTT! As long as we haven't settled this
question either way, the predicament we're in (and I agree it's a
predicament) is more an indictment of type theorists than of type theory.
(And I include myself as a type theorist here.)
Anyway, from your phrasing of (1), it looks like you're after a directed
type theory. Several groups are working on type theories where your (1) is
valid syntax, but you have to write Space (or Anima or ...) to indicate the
covariant universe of homotopy types and maps, rather than the full
universe.
(2) Let G be a type equipped with a group structure;
>
(3) Let BG be the classifying space of a group G;
> (4) Let Gr be the category of groups;
>
Again, let me remind everyone, that groups are precisely one of the few
structures we know how to handle (along with grouplike E_n-types, and
connective/general spectra): To equip a type G with a group structure is to
give a pointed connected type BG and an equivalence of G with the loop type
of BG. The type of objects of Gr is the universe of pointed, connected
types.
When you replace groups by monoids, it gets more embarrassing.
Earlier (on May 7) you wrote:
> At some level, all mathematics is based on some kind of set theory.
> Is it not obvious?
> We cannot escape Cantor's paradise!
>
That is exactly the question, isn't it?
What HoTT/UF offers us is another axis of foundational variation, besides
the old classical/constructive, impredicative/predicative,
infinitist/finitist, namely: everything is based on sets/general homotopy
types are not reducible to sets.
I don't know of catchy names for these positions, but I think that working
with HoTT has a tendency of making the latter position more plausible: Why
should there for any type be a set that surjects onto it?
A question: Recall that if we assume the axiom of choice (AC) for sets,
then there is a surjection from a set onto Set, namely the map that takes a
cardinal (or ordinal) to the set of ordinals below it.
Is there (with AC for sets) also a surjection from a set to the type of
1-types? To the full universe?
The 2-level type theories can be viewed as another way of making a type
theory that is faithful to the idea that everything is based on sets. I
like to think of the outer layer as an exoskeleton for type theory, giving
it a bit of extra strength while we don't know how to use its own powers
fully, or whether indeed it is strong enough to effect constructions like
that of simplicial types. Every type (which for me is a fibrant type, since
that's the mathematically meaningful ones) has a corresponding exotype
(indeed an exoset), but there are more exotypes, such as the exonatural
numbers, which are sometimes useful.
Best wishes,
Ulrik
[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 3944 bytes --]
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-05-10 12:53 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 61+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-05-05 8:47 Ansten Mørch Klev
2020-05-06 16:02 ` [HoTT] " Joyal, André
2020-05-06 19:01 ` Steve Awodey
2020-05-06 19:18 ` Michael Shulman
2020-05-06 19:31 ` Steve Awodey
2020-05-06 20:30 ` Joyal, André
2020-05-06 22:52 ` Thorsten Altenkirch
2020-05-06 22:54 ` Thorsten Altenkirch
2020-05-06 23:29 ` Joyal, André
2020-05-07 6:11 ` Egbert Rijke
2020-05-07 6:58 ` Thorsten Altenkirch
2020-05-07 9:04 ` Ansten Mørch Klev
2020-05-07 10:09 ` Thomas Streicher
2020-05-07 16:13 ` Joyal, André
2020-05-07 21:41 ` David Roberts
2020-05-07 23:43 ` Joyal, André
2020-05-07 23:56 ` David Roberts
2020-05-08 6:40 ` Thomas Streicher
2020-05-08 21:06 ` Joyal, André
2020-05-08 23:44 ` Steve Awodey
2020-05-09 2:46 ` Joyal, André
2020-05-09 3:09 ` Jon Sterling
[not found] ` <CADZEZBY+3z6nrRwsx9p-HqYuTxAnwMUHv7JasHy8aoy1oaGPcw@mail.gmail.com>
2020-05-09 2:50 ` Steve Awodey
2020-05-09 8:28 ` Thomas Streicher
2020-05-09 15:53 ` Joyal, André
2020-05-09 18:43 ` Thomas Streicher
2020-05-09 20:18 ` Joyal, André
2020-05-09 21:27 ` Jon Sterling
2020-05-10 2:19 ` Joyal, André
2020-05-10 3:04 ` Jon Sterling
2020-05-10 9:09 ` Thomas Streicher
2020-05-10 11:59 ` Thorsten Altenkirch
2020-05-10 11:46 ` Thorsten Altenkirch
2020-05-10 14:01 ` Michael Shulman
2020-05-10 14:20 ` Nicolai Kraus
2020-05-10 14:34 ` Michael Shulman
2020-05-10 14:52 ` Nicolai Kraus
2020-05-10 15:16 ` Michael Shulman
2020-05-10 15:23 ` Nicolai Kraus
2020-05-10 16:13 ` Nicolai Kraus
2020-05-10 16:28 ` Michael Shulman
2020-05-10 18:18 ` Nicolai Kraus
2020-05-10 19:15 ` Thorsten Altenkirch
2020-05-10 19:20 ` Thorsten Altenkirch
2020-05-10 12:53 ` Ulrik Buchholtz [this message]
2020-05-10 14:01 ` Michael Shulman
2020-05-10 14:27 ` Nicolai Kraus
2020-05-10 15:35 ` Ulrik Buchholtz
2020-05-10 16:30 ` Michael Shulman
2020-05-10 18:56 ` Nicolai Kraus
2020-05-10 18:04 ` Joyal, André
2020-05-11 7:33 ` Thomas Streicher
2020-05-11 14:54 ` Joyal, André
2020-05-11 16:37 ` stre...
2020-05-11 16:42 ` Michael Shulman
2020-05-11 17:27 ` Thomas Streicher
2020-05-10 16:51 ` Nicolai Kraus
2020-05-10 18:57 ` Michael Shulman
2020-05-10 19:18 ` Nicolai Kraus
2020-05-10 20:22 ` Michael Shulman
2020-05-10 22:08 ` Joyal, André
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=e47e6263-d0eb-4882-ab07-e31483095bd4@googlegroups.com \
--to="ulrikbu..."@gmail.com \
--cc="HomotopyT..."@googlegroups.com \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).