emacs, Gnus, sendmail ?

emacs, Gnus, sendmail ?

[news]

Re. Gnus, I read in the FAQ:-----  extract ------
   I  just installed Gnus, started it via M-x gnus but it only says "nntp
   (news) open error", what to do?
   
   You've  got  to  tell  Gnus  where  to  fetch  the news from. Read the
   documentation for information on how to do this. As a first start, put
   those lines in ~/.gnus.el:
(setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.yourprovider.net"))
(setq user-mail-address "you@yourprovider.net")
(setq user-full-name "Your Name")
------------ end of extract-----

I'm logged in as root [since I need freedom to setup the various 
parameters], but I've got no /root/.gnus.el file; so I created one 
containing the recommended:
   '(setq gnus....'(nntp " ....").
But still I only see the 'can't contect to server' error.

Also emacs apparently uses sendmail to send mail.
But the 'return-path/from' fields are not configured.
And sendmail.cf is a 57K monster !
How is THIS problem to be fixed ?

And what fascinates me, is that after all the labour invested, 
the bleeding-edge-boys say  "you must keep updated".
I.e install the latest version and re-do all the re-configuration ?!

Any advice on how to fix-it appreciated.

== Chris Glur.

Re: emacs, Gnus, sendmail ?

[Hadron]

news@absamail.co.za writes:

> Re. Gnus, I read in the FAQ:-----  extract ------
>    I  just installed Gnus, started it via M-x gnus but it only says "nntp
>    (news) open error", what to do?
>    
>    You've  got  to  tell  Gnus  where  to  fetch  the news from. Read the
>    documentation for information on how to do this. As a first start, put
>    those lines in ~/.gnus.el:
> (setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.yourprovider.net"))
> (setq user-mail-address "you@yourprovider.net")
> (setq user-full-name "Your Name")
> ------------ end of extract-----
>
> I'm logged in as root [since I need freedom to setup the various 
> parameters], but I've got no /root/.gnus.el file; so I created one 
> containing the recommended:
>    '(setq gnus....'(nntp " ....").
> But still I only see the 'can't contect to server' error.

Do not log in as root to set this up.

Which linux/unix are you using?

If you create a root/.emacs and root/.gnus.el then how do you expect
your usual login to see these files?

You need /home/youruser/.gnus.el

where /home/youruser is your home directory.

And in it you will have something like

(setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "newshost"))

When you say "I only see "cant contact server"", where you logged in as
your normal user? if so, thats what I would expect because your normal
user doesnt have a .gnus.el - you set it up for root instead.

Learn sudo or whatever the equivalent is on your OS. Use google. But you
will only need that for configuring leafnode or something similar for
creating a localhost nntp server reading from a locally buffered cache.

>
> Also emacs apparently uses sendmail to send mail.
> But the 'return-path/from' fields are not configured.
> And sendmail.cf is a 57K monster !
> How is THIS problem to be fixed ?
>
> And what fascinates me, is that after all the labour invested, 
> the bleeding-edge-boys say  "you must keep updated".
> I.e install the latest version and re-do all the re-configuration ?!

No they dont. That is total rubbish. Emacs crowd are the most
conservative ever!

>
> Any advice on how to fix-it appreciated.
>
> == Chris Glur.
>
>

-- 

Re: emacs, Gnus, sendmail ?

[Dan Espen]

news@absamail.co.za writes:

> Re. Gnus, I read in the FAQ:-----  extract ------
>    I  just installed Gnus, started it via M-x gnus but it only says "nntp
>    (news) open error", what to do?
>    
>    You've  got  to  tell  Gnus  where  to  fetch  the news from. Read the
>    documentation for information on how to do this. As a first start, put
>    those lines in ~/.gnus.el:
> (setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.yourprovider.net"))
> (setq user-mail-address "you@yourprovider.net")
> (setq user-full-name "Your Name")
> ------------ end of extract-----
>
> I'm logged in as root [since I need freedom to setup the various 
> parameters], but I've got no /root/.gnus.el file; so I created one 
> containing the recommended:
>    '(setq gnus....'(nntp " ....").
> But still I only see the 'can't contect to server' error.

>From my ~/.gnus:

(setq gnus-select-method 
      '(nntp "news"))
(setq nntp-authinfo-user "username@servername"
      nntp-authinfo-password "xxxxx"
      gnus-nntp-server "newsgroups.servername")
(add-hook 'nntp-server-opened-hook 'nntp-send-authinfo t)

> And what fascinates me, is that after all the labour invested, 
> the bleeding-edge-boys say  "you must keep updated".
> I.e install the latest version and re-do all the re-configuration ?!

Please stop whining.  Fun to keep updated, you get nice new stuff.
I don't have to do any re-configuration.
If you don't want to keep updated, don't.

Re: emacs, Gnus, sendmail ?

[Joel J. Adamson]

news@absamail.co.za writes:

> I'm logged in as root [since I need freedom to setup the various 
> parameters], but I've got no /root/.gnus.el file; so I created one 
> containing the recommended:
>    '(setq gnus....'(nntp " ....").
> But still I only see the 'can't contect to server' error.

You don't need to set up anything for Emacs as root.  You absolutely
have to set stuff up for Emacs as a user (all the configurations are
read from your home directory).  Besides the security issues (i.e.,
you might delete your entire filesystem), nothing will work if you set
it up as root (as you've discovered).

> Also emacs apparently uses sendmail to send mail.

It only uses sendmail if you've set up sendmail (the Unix program).
Otherwise it uses sendmail.el (`slocate sendmail.el`)

> But the 'return-path/from' fields are not configured.
> And sendmail.cf is a 57K monster !

You're talking about sendmail the system program; Emacs has its own
sendmail functions (see above).

> How is THIS problem to be fixed ?

Configure -> play around -> configure -> play around -> configure ->
testing (this used to be called playing around but now you've found a
systematic way to do it)

Or, the alternative:

configure -> play around -> throw hands up -> configure -> lose
mail -> configure -> throw hands way up -> lose more mail -> use Thunderbird.

> And what fascinates me, is that after all the labour invested, 
> the bleeding-edge-boys say  "you must keep updated".

Well, don't pay attention to the bleeding edge boys -- they have time
to play around and lose data.  Emacs 22.1 is out now and it's plenty
updated -- it's friggin' fantastic -- and it's so damn stable that
things work now that never worked before in previously "stable"
versions (like AucTeX suddenly does whatever I ask, weird ;))

> I.e install the latest version and re-do all the re-configuration ?!

Besides that you DON'T lose your configuration if you do it as a user:
it's all saved as .files (e.g., .emacs, .gnus, .vm, .your-face,
.gtkrc-2.0).  I upgraded first from XEmacs 21.4.19 to Emacs 21.4
(believe me, that WAS an upgrade) and then from Emacs 21.4 to Emacs
22.1 and in the second upgrade, I only had to fix three pieces of
.emacs.  On top of that I decided that now I like the scrollbars,
toolbars and menubar, since they're GTK.  This is not the bleeding
edge: it's pretty damn stable.

> Any advice on how to fix-it appreciated.

My advice: I know you're frustrated, but you will be better off for
your frustration if you read the manuals, get into Emacs lisp (how the
program really works) and HUMBLY ask for help, instead of trying to
piss off the people who can help you.

Joel

-- 
Joel J. Adamson
Biostatistician
Pediatric Psychopharmacology Research Unit
Massachusetts General Hospital
Boston, MA  02114
(617) 643-1432
(303) 880-3109

Re: emacs, Gnus, sendmail ?

[Reiner Steib]

On Thu, Jun 07 2007, Joel J. Adamson wrote:

> news@absamail.co.za writes:
>> Also emacs apparently uses sendmail to send mail.
>
> It only uses sendmail if you've set up sendmail (the Unix program).
> Otherwise it uses sendmail.el (`slocate sendmail.el`)

,----
| ;; Useful to set in site-init.el
| ;;;###autoload
| (defcustom send-mail-function
|   (if (and window-system (memq system-type '(darwin windows-nt)))
|       'mailclient-send-it
|     'sendmail-send-it)
`----

I.e. on Mac OS X and Windows, the default is to pass the mail to "the
system's mail client".  Otherwise it is the sendmail program.

>> But the 'return-path/from' fields are not configured.
>> And sendmail.cf is a 57K monster !

Even when using the traditional sendmail.(com|org) program, you don't
need to edit the sendmail.cf file directly.

> Configure -> play around -> configure -> play around -> configure ->
> testing (this used to be called playing around but now you've found a
> systematic way to do it)
>
> Or, the alternative:
>
> configure -> play around -> throw hands up -> configure -> lose
> mail -> configure -> throw hands way up -> lose more mail -> use Thunderbird.

Are you trying to say that you lost mail using Gnus?

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: emacs, Gnus, sendmail ?

[Tim X]

>> news@absamail.co.za writes:
>>> Also emacs apparently uses sendmail to send mail.
>>
>> It only uses sendmail if you've set up sendmail (the Unix program).
>> Otherwise it uses sendmail.el (`slocate sendmail.el`)
>
>
>>> But the 'return-path/from' fields are not configured.
>>> And sendmail.cf is a 57K monster !
>
> Even when using the traditional sendmail.(com|org) program, you don't
> need to edit the sendmail.cf file directly.
>
>> Configure -> play around -> configure -> play around -> configure ->
>> testing (this used to be called playing around but now you've found a
>> systematic way to do it)
>>
>> Or, the alternative:
>>
>> configure -> play around -> throw hands up -> configure -> lose
>> mail -> configure -> throw hands way up -> lose more mail -> use Thunderbird.

This all sounds like the all too common frustration experienced when people try
to cut corners and setup a system without first having done their homework.
While there are a lot of things that will work with only minor tweaks 'out of
the box' and while these systems can eliminate the need to read docs and
understand, often things only appear to be working properly - weird behavior
can be lurking just under the surface which is easily overlooked. 

>From some of the comments, I'd suggest a bit more research and yo will save
hours of frustration. some points that may help -

- Be careful about how the term 'sendmail' is used. As the software 'sendmail'
  was one of the earliest mail transport agents, it has sort of become the
  defacto name used in many contexts to refer to the MTA (mail transport
  agent). For example, you will find many other MTAs have a compatibility
  layer/program called sendmail (i.e. postfix, qmail etc), which allows the MTA
  to be invoked as if it was sendmail. This is largely because back when
  sendmail was pretty much the default MTA on Unix systems, many scripts used
  calls to the sendmail binary to dispatch mail. Having compatibility layers
  meant that you could drop in a new MTA without breaking all those scripts
  etc. 

- Nobody configures sendmail by hand unless they are doing it for an exercise
  or to gain increased knowledge of the system. Sendmail is configured using m4
  macros. If you read the documentation, you will find that all you need to do
  is set a handful of config lines in an input file, run the m4 stuff and you
  get a customized sendmail.cfg. The trick is to actually read the installation
  docs for sendmail. However, few people run sendmail anymore and unless you
  need to, don't! There are many other MTAs out there. If you just need a
  system for your Linux box and it is a single user box, I'd suggest looking at
  something like Exim. For larger numbers of users, postfix or qmail are quite
  popular (I personally never liked qmail though). However, my recommendation
  to most (especially Linux users) is to use your ISPs mail server or the mail
  server used at work by everyone else. For a typical single user Linux box, it
  is unnecessary to run a mail server at all or you can do a minimal
  'smarthost' config, which involves setting up your local MTA to just relay
  mail to another server that does all the work (i.e. ISP or works server).
  Maintenance and administration of any network based access to a computer
  should not be done by anyone who doesn't know what they are doing or doesn't
  have the time or want to spend the time maintaining it as this is a common
  source of security problems or a source for spammers to use etc. 

- If all you need is to be able to send mail from within emacs, I would
  recommend looking at something like smtp.el (or one of the other similar
  elisp packages). Using this approach, I have configured my system with about
  7 lines in my .emacs file and two environment variables. This provides
  everything I need to send mail or post to newsgroups. 

- You don't need to run an MTA daemon unless you are going to recieve mail
  directly to that host. In many cases, its far simpler to use something like
  fetchmail or getmail. 

- Actually configuring a stand alone MTA can be useful if you have multiple
  applications you like to use to send mail as you often won't need to
  individually configure each application. Likewise, if you have multiple
  users. However, if you just use a couple of apps, like emacs and maybe
  thunderbird, I'd avoid the hassle and additional maintenance overhead.

- There are a number of environment variables that can be used to set things
  like default reply address. For example, Emacs 22 will honor the EMAIL and
  ORGANIZATION environment variables for setting specific mail headers, such as
  the from and x-organization headers. I beleive there is also a REPLY_TO env
  variable used by many apps. See the emacs manual for full details.

Tim


-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: emacs, Gnus, sendmail ?

[Dick Hoogendijk]

Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> writes:

> However, few people run sendmail anymore and unless you need to,
> don't! There are many other MTAs out there.

I think your story in general is a very good one. I saved it for
future reference ;-) However, don't start a MTA war by saying using
sendmail is 'not done' It's OK to use the MTA you like, but sendmail
is as good as any other. There's nothing wrong with using it.
I know lots of linux distros have abandoned it, but FreeBSD and
solaris -to name a few- still have it as their default MTA.

-- 
Dick Hoogendijk -- PGP/GnuPG key: F86289CE
++ http://nagual.nl/ + Solaris 11 02/07 ++

Re: emacs, Gnus, sendmail ?

[Reiner Steib]

On Fri, Jun 08 2007, Tim X wrote:

> - If all you need is to be able to send mail from within emacs, I would
>   recommend looking at something like smtp.el (or one of the other similar
>   elisp packages). Using this approach, I have configured my system with about
>   7 lines in my .emacs file and two environment variables. This provides
>   everything I need to send mail or post to newsgroups. 

Did you mean `lisp/mail/smtpmail.el'?

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: emacs, Gnus, sendmail ?

[Joel J. Adamson]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

> On Thu, Jun 07 2007, Joel J. Adamson wrote:

>> Configure -> play around -> configure -> play around -> configure ->
>> testing (this used to be called playing around but now you've found a
>> systematic way to do it)
>>
>> Or, the alternative:
>>
>> configure -> play around -> throw hands up -> configure -> lose
>> mail -> configure -> throw hands way up -> lose more mail -> use Thunderbird.
>
> Are you trying to say that you lost mail using Gnus?

No no no no no: I didn't lose it, I just didn't know where it was.

Joel

-- 
Joel J. Adamson
Biostatistician
Pediatric Psychopharmacology Research Unit
Massachusetts General Hospital
Boston, MA  02114
(617) 643-1432
(303) 880-3109

Re: emacs, Gnus, sendmail ?

[Tim X]

Dick Hoogendijk <dick@nagual.nl> writes:

> Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> writes:
>
>> However, few people run sendmail anymore and unless you need to,
>> don't! There are many other MTAs out there.
>
> I think your story in general is a very good one. I saved it for
> future reference ;-) However, don't start a MTA war by saying using
> sendmail is 'not done' It's OK to use the MTA you like, but sendmail
> is as good as any other. There's nothing wrong with using it.
> I know lots of linux distros have abandoned it, but FreeBSD and
> solaris -to name a few- still have it as their default MTA.
>
Actually I didn't mean to imply that sendmail wasn't any good. In fact, its
still my favorite MTA - its the one I feel I understand best. However, unless
you have pretty demanding requirements, I don't think most people require its
power and flexibility - all of which comes at a cost, which is generally
additional learning at a level that exceeds what many users require. 

I've actually had a number of arguments with people who incorrectly believe
that sendmail is insecure and/or old/out of date. Often, this is with people
who recommend qmail, an MTA which I have had to administer and never felt
comfortable with because I never felt I really understood how all the bits
worked/integrated. Sendmail was a program, which although potentially complex,
has a model I find easy to understand and once you know about m4, is as easy to
setup as any other MTA I've had to configure. The security criticisms of
sendmail, I bleieve are out of date and misleading. If anything, sendmail is
one of the most secure simply because it is so widely used and has been
'tested' so thoroughly. People forget that the security holes found in sendmail
occured at a time when security of such protocols was just beginning to become
an issue and overlook the fact that the initial system was devleoped back when
security was not the issue it is now (the good old days when you could trust
the majority of users to do the right thing!). The point is that havinig to
address those issues combined with the number of sites using it and its obvious
appeal to those wanting to circumvent security means that it probably is more
secure than less used systems that really haven't had their security
challenged. 

The main point I wanted to make in my original post was that in many cases, you
simply don't need to bother with a local MTA - use your ISPs and let them take
care of the admin or use a more light weight MTA, such as exim etc. There is
far too much really interesting things out there to get bogged down managing a
mail server if you don't need to. 

tim

> -- 
-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: emacs, Gnus, sendmail ?

[Tim X]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

> On Fri, Jun 08 2007, Tim X wrote:
>
>> - If all you need is to be able to send mail from within emacs, I would
>>   recommend looking at something like smtp.el (or one of the other similar
>>   elisp packages). Using this approach, I have configured my system with about
>>   7 lines in my .emacs file and two environment variables. This provides
>>   everything I need to send mail or post to newsgroups. 
>
> Did you mean `lisp/mail/smtpmail.el'?
>

Yes, I did. Its been so long since I set things up and haven't looked at it
since, I got the package name wrong (I guess this is a testimony to how great
this emacs stuff is!).

Tim


-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au