archive of sent messages: how to get to appear in Group buffer?

archive of sent messages: how to get to appear in Group buffer?

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

Hello,

I'm using gnus v.10.5.7 in Emacs 21.4.1 on an Intel Pentium III
running GNU/Linux Debian Sarge kernel 2.4.27-2.

After several attempts to improve mail reading in gnus, I have things
almost exactly where I want them (still GnuPG to set up). I am having
trouble with subscribing to the groups where I am archiving my own
messages though. I read the gnus manual section on sending mail, and
also looked on the web (where similar examples abound).

Below then is the code in my .gnus.el file where I ask the program to
store my written mails and news postings:

*---*

;; Save mail into a folder called sent-mail:

(setq gnus-message-archive-method
      '(nnfolder "sent-mail"
                (nnfolder-directory   "~/Mail/sent-mail")
                (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/sent-mail/active")
                (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil)
                (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t)))

;; decide where under sent-mail to store messages depending on which
;; group I am in:

(setq gnus-message-archive-group 
      '(("^rec.martial" "sent-to-martial-arts")
	("^rec.models" "sent-to-models")
	("^sci.military.naval" "sent-to-naval")
	(".*" "sent-to-misc")))

*---*

I expect to get an nnfolder in my Group buffer called sent-mail, whose
physical location is in the directory ~/Mail/sent-mail. This is the
first time I am using nnfolder, so I am not clear as to whether
nnfolder "sent-mail" is a top-level folder directory, or one single
nnfolder. Going on the the next bit of the code, in this directory I
expect to see the nnfolders sent-to-martial-arts,
sent-to-models,sent-to-naval, and sent-to-misc, where the actual
messages will be stored in nnfolder format.

When I use command-line tools to look at the messages, they are indeed
located in the places indicated:

gernot@hase:~/Mail/sent-mail$ ls -al
total 36
drwxr-xr-x   2 gernot gernot 4096 2005-06-08 02:20 .
drwxr-xr-x  76 gernot gernot 4096 2005-06-08 01:57 ..
-rw-r--r--   1 gernot gernot   66 2005-06-08 02:20 active
-rw-r--r--   1 gernot gernot 2542 2005-06-08 02:08 sent-to-martial-arts
-rw-------   1 gernot gernot  187 2005-06-08 02:08 sent-to-martial-arts.nov
-rw-r--r--   1 gernot gernot    0 2005-06-08 02:08 sent-to-martial-arts~
-rw-r--r--   1 gernot gernot 2285 2005-06-08 02:20 sent-to-misc
-rw-------   1 gernot gernot  232 2005-06-08 02:20 sent-to-misc.nov
-rw-r--r--   1 gernot gernot    0 2005-06-08 02:20 sent-to-misc~
-rw-r--r--   1 gernot gernot 1862 2005-06-08 01:43 sent-to-naval
-rw-------   1 gernot gernot  578 2005-06-08 01:43 sent-to-naval.nov
-rw-r--r--   1 gernot gernot    0 2005-06-08 01:43 sent-to-naval~

OK, so far excellent, at least I know the messages are being stored
safely. However, I cannot seem to be able to subscribe to my own
groups in an editable manner. I.e., although I can use G D or G d to
access them in read-only mode, I cannot get gnus to list them as
editable mail or news groups from the Group buffer. I have tried F,
and have tried various foreign group subscription methods.

So, I thought, if nnfolder is a mail group, then maybe I have to tell
Gnus to fetch mail there, exactly like my other mail sources. In that
case, I need to put, in addition to the code above, requisite mail
source code into my .gnus.el. However, I did not see this in any of
the many example .gnus files I have looked at on the web. Can anyone
clarify for me what is going on here, or point me to some more
documentation? I am especially confused still by the meaning of
nnfolder "sent-mail" in relation to gnus-message-archive-group.

Any help would be very much appreciated. Thank you in advance.
Gratefully,
        Gernot Hassenpflug
-- 
G Hassenpflug RASC, Kyoto University
<myfirstname><at>rish.kyoto-u.ac.jp

Re: archive of sent messages: how to get to appear in Group buffer?

[Sébastien Kirche]

Le 8 Jun 2005 à 02:06, Gernot Hassenpflug a formulé :

> OK, so far excellent, at least I know the messages are being stored
> safely. However, I cannot seem to be able to subscribe to my own
> groups in an editable manner. I.e., although I can use G D or G d to
> access them in read-only mode, I cannot get gnus to list them as
> editable mail or news groups from the Group buffer. I have tried F,
> and have tried various foreign group subscription methods.

Did you tried  to enter in nnfolder from the server  buffer (^ key while
in the group buffer) ?

As you defined  sent-mail as the archive method, it  should have added a
nnfolder:sent-mail server and you  could subscribe to you archive groups
with RET on the server followed by u on each group.

> So, I thought, if nnfolder is a mail group, then maybe I have to tell
> Gnus to fetch mail there, exactly like my other mail sources. In that
> case, I need to put, in addition to the code above, requisite mail
> source code into my .gnus.el. However, I did not see this in any of
> the many example .gnus files I have looked at on the web. Can anyone
> clarify for me what is going on here, or point me to some more
> documentation? I am especially confused still by the meaning of
> nnfolder "sent-mail" in relation to gnus-message-archive-group.

If  it can  help,  maybe you  can  look at  my  own configuration  files
 at http://sebastien.kirche.free.fr/emacs_stuff/en.html 

I just set up some things to  use mail and news archiving, except that I
defined an nnml group and unset the archive method as i had some trouble
with it. 

By  doing  that  i  have  now  an nnml:archives  server  and  an  unused
nnfolder:archive. Maybe i am wrong ?

-- 
Sébastien Kirche

Re: archive of sent messages: how to get to appear in Group buffer?

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

>>>>> "Sébastien" == Sébastien Kirche <sebastien.kirche.no@spam.free.fr.invalid> writes:

    Sébastien> Le 8 Jun 2005 à 02:06, Gernot Hassenpflug a formulé :
    >> OK, so far excellent, at least I know the messages are being
    >> stored safely. However, I cannot seem to be able to subscribe
    >> to my own groups in an editable manner. I.e., although I can
    >> use G D or G d to access them in read-only mode, I cannot get
    >> gnus to list them as editable mail or news groups from the
    >> Group buffer. I have tried F, and have tried various foreign
    >> group subscription methods.

    Sébastien> Did you tried to enter in nnfolder from the server
    Sébastien> buffer (^ key while in the group buffer) ?

    Sébastien> As you defined sent-mail as the archive method, it
    Sébastien> should have added a nnfolder:sent-mail server and you
    Sébastien> could subscribe to you archive groups with RET on the
    Sébastien> server followed by u on each group.

Hello again Sébastien,

Brilliant! I did not know I had created a server with these commands,
I thought I had created a group (or set of groups) on localhost (as
server, although I did not think that far) and they would
auto-magically appear. You are absolutely right, doing ^ shows me

     {nnfolder:archive} (opened)
     {nndoc:gnus-help} (opened)
     {nnfolder:} (opened)
     {nndir:edu} (denied)
     {nnfolder:sent-mail} (opened)
     {nnml:} (opened)
     {nntp:news.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp} (opened) (agent)

which includes a couple of erroneous servers from previous
attempts. The nnfolder:sent-mail 'server' contains:

K      1: sent-to-martial-arts
K      3: sent-to-misc
K      1: sent-to-naval

which I promptly subscribed too. I will have to edit .newsrc.eld as
you advised in your reply to my other query, to remove the erroneous
entries. The whole process appears a bit opaque to me still, where to
look for things I created is easier though now, thanks to your advice.

    Sébastien> If it can help, maybe you can look at my own
    Sébastien> configuration files at
    Sébastien> http://sebastien.kirche.free.fr/emacs_stuff/en.html

    Sébastien> I just set up some things to use mail and news
    Sébastien> archiving, except that I defined an nnml group and
    Sébastien> unset the archive method as i had some trouble with it.

    Sébastien> By doing that i have now an nnml:archives server and an
    Sébastien> unused nnfolder:archive. Maybe i am wrong ?

Nice work, I learnt a lot looking at your .gnus file. Looks like you
decided not to define archive method, but specify nnml groups
directly. So gnus generates these for you when yo need them? And then
in your secondary sources you specify these archives as being part of
server nnml:archives (if I have the idea and terminology correct). You
also need to enter the server buffer to subscribe to these new groups?

As for nnfolder:archive, I think maybe this does not exist, if you did
not define archive method...

Thank you very much, your files are a study in progress for me now!

-- 
G Hassenpflug RASC, Kyoto University

Re: archive of sent messages: how to get to appear in Group buffer?

[Sébastien Kirche]

At 15:06 on Jun 8 2005, Gernot Hassenpflug said :

> Brilliant! I did not know I had created a server with these commands,
> I thought I had created a group (or set of groups) on localhost (as
> server, although I did not think that far) and they would
> auto-magically appear. You are absolutely right, doing ^ shows me
> 
> {nnfolder:archive} (opened)
> {nndoc:gnus-help} (opened)
> {nnfolder:} (opened)
> {nndir:edu} (denied)
> {nnfolder:sent-mail} (opened)
> {nnml:} (opened)
> {nntp:news.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp} (opened) (agent)
> 
> which includes a couple of erroneous servers from previous
> attempts. The nnfolder:sent-mail 'server' contains:
> 
> K      1: sent-to-martial-arts
> K      3: sent-to-misc
> K      1: sent-to-naval
> 
> which I promptly subscribed too. 

You can also directly add a new server (eg. nntp or nnimap backends) and
subscribe several  groups in  it directly instead  of adding  each group
separately from the group buffer with G m

It will add the groups in mass  with the group buffer, and you can after
reorder them with transpose (C-x C-t) or killing/yanking.

> I will  have to edit  .newsrc.eld as you  advised in your reply  to my
> other  query,  to remove  the  erroneous  entries.  The whole  process
> appears a bit  opaque to me still, where to look  for things I created
> is easier though now, thanks to your advice.

Actually the  normal way  of deleting a  server is  to go to  the server
buffer  and to use  the k  key to  kill the  server. But  sometimes gnus
complains that  it cannot  suppress it. Not  sure of the  actual reason,
maybe if there are some subscribed groups ?

> Nice work, I learnt a lot looking at your .gnus file. 

Beware of the  fact it is kind  of work in progress and  that some parts
are experimental :)
My Emacs/Gnus  configuration is still in  a long tuning  process since I
started to use them 2-3 years ago. Dunno if there will be an end :)

> Looks like you decided not  to define archive method, but specify nnml
> groups directly. So gnus generates these for you when yo need them?

Yes,  i have  several existing  Mail-sent/200x-xx  and News-sent/200x-xx
folders including 2005-06,  and on the first time i will  send a mail or
an  article in  July, it  will create  the corresponding  2005-07 folder
(without asking).

Also  if you  try  eg. to  copy an  article  to a  non-existing nnml  or
nnfolder, lets say nnml+some_stuff:a_group, gnus will ask about creating
it.

> And then in your secondary sources you specify these archives as being
> part  of server  nnml:archives (if  I  have the  idea and  terminology
> correct). You  also need  to enter the  server buffer to  subscribe to
> these new groups?

No, until now, it automagicaly subscribes to the newly created groups at
the top of the list, and I manually move them to the right topic.

> As for nnfolder:archive, I think maybe this does not exist, if you did
> not define archive method...

It  appeared during  my attempts  that if  you don't  define  an archive
method at all,  gnus do adds an nnfolder:archive server.  Not sure if it
is unconditionally or only while archiving the first message.

I tried several ways for having an nnml archive backend at a given place
and with a given  name instead of an nnfolder one in  the Mail folder (I
plan to  configure Remembrance Agent for  indexing my sent  mails thus I
need a one-file-per-message backend) and the working method i found is

- creating the  nnml  server in  the gnus-secondary-select-methods  and
  specifying the nnml-directory

-  unseting the  gnus-message-archive-method  (it make  gnus creating  a
  nnfolder:archive)

-  defining   the  gnus-message-archive-group  to   split  the  archives
  following the date

Maybe it  is not the  best method, but  several gnus concepts  about the
cache, the active files, nnml and nnfolder backend that were unclear for
me as i tried to configure it.

Now I am more familiar about how  to create a nnml folder, how to import
some foreign mails or how to  reindex nnfolders and rebuild content of a
server. 

Just don't  know why  some server sometime  automagicaly appear  and why
gnus cannot delete them and makes me editing the .newsrc.eld file.

> Thank you very much, your files are a study in progress for me now!

Glad to be able to help someone :)

Emacs/Gnus deserve sharing of the knowledge.

-- 
Sébastien Kirche