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* [musl] Locale support considered harmful noise
@ 2020-02-18 19:38 Jacob Welsh
  2020-02-18 21:42 ` A. Wilcox
  2020-02-19  3:36 ` Rich Felker
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Jacob Welsh @ 2020-02-18 19:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: musl

Hello,

In TMSR we've made extensive use of musl, due to the very welcome dose of clear and concise code it provides as compared to the competition [1]. For example we have a static Ada compiler [2], the Bitcoin reference implementation [3], a reproducible and self-contained Gentoo system [4], and not least of all my own distribution [5] used in my consulting business [6].

However, the apparent goal of aggressive expansion of Unicode and localization "features" in musl sets off alarms; for instance, on the roadmap [7] I see:

> Unicode 12.1 update and related character handling work

> Locale support overhaul.

> Hostname resolver support for non-ASCII domains (IDN)

> LC_COLLATE support for collation orders other than simple codepoint order

> Support for LC_MONETARY and LC_NUMERIC properties.

> Message translation support for dynamic linker

> Locale data and libc message translations

We think this is such a bad idea that it threatens to undermine musl's otherwise substantial virtues. This kind of bloat imposes real costs on the users that matter - namely the literate ones, who value predictable, stable and bug-free code - in exchange for entirely unclear benefits.

Especially considering the rate at which bugs are still turning up, there is no justification for this added complexity. In any event we will not be using "upgrades" that import additional nonsense into this critical system component.

I'll be happy to discuss further here, in my blog comments or on irc [8].

Yours,
J. Welsh

[1] http://trinque.org/2019/12/29/a-republican-os-part-2/
[2] http://ave1.org/2018/building-gnat-on-musl/
[3] http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-July/000133.html
[4] http://trinque.org/2018/11/27/cuntoo-bootstrapper/
[5] http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2019/introducing-gales-linux
[6] http://dorion-mode.com/2019/11/jwrd-computing
[7] https://wiki.musl-libc.org/roadmap.html
[8] #ossasepia or #trilema on freenode; PM me (jfw) or someone talking to ask for voice.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [musl] Locale support considered harmful noise
  2020-02-18 19:38 [musl] Locale support considered harmful noise Jacob Welsh
@ 2020-02-18 21:42 ` A. Wilcox
  2020-02-18 22:23   ` Hadrien Lacour
  2020-02-19 21:28   ` [musl] Locale support considered harmful noise Jacob Welsh
  2020-02-19  3:36 ` Rich Felker
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: A. Wilcox @ 2020-02-18 21:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: musl

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On 18/02/2020 13:38, Jacob Welsh wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> In TMSR we've made extensive use of musl, due to the very welcome dose
> of clear and concise code it provides as compared to the competition
> [1]. For example we have a static Ada compiler [2], the Bitcoin
> reference implementation [3], a reproducible and self-contained Gentoo
> system [4], and not least of all my own distribution [5] used in my
> consulting business [6].
> 
> However, the apparent goal of aggressive expansion of Unicode and
> localization "features" in musl sets off alarms; for instance, on the
> roadmap [7] I see:


Why do you not believe that musl could provide any of these features
using clear and concise code?


>> Unicode 12.1 update and related character handling work


This is necessary for actual real-world users that need to use the
symbols added since the last Unicode update.

For example, Unicode 12.1 added the symbol for the new Japanese era,
Reiwa Era.  You will be unable to represent current dates in the
Japanese calendar without this update.


>> Locale support overhaul.


Also very important for real-world users that wish to use languages
besides English to communicate with their computer.


>> Hostname resolver support for non-ASCII domains (IDN)


IDN domains are gaining significant traction, especially in Asia and the
Middle East.


>> LC_COLLATE support for collation orders other than simple codepoint order


I have been personally impacted by the lack of LC_COLLATE support.


>> Support for LC_MONETARY and LC_NUMERIC properties.


This is necessary for a better desktop experience; especially LC_NUMERIC
is egregious since many cultures/countries utilise , as the decimal
separator.


>> Message translation support for dynamic linker


This will allow non-English speakers the ability to understand the
errors that are happening on the computers they own.


>> Locale data and libc message translations


This is somewhat already possible with
https://github.com/rilian-la-te/musl-locales - it would basically just
be upstreaming the translation files into musl proper (to ensure they
are kept up-to-date) and adding messages that are not already translated.


> We think this is such a bad idea that it threatens to undermine musl's
> otherwise substantial virtues. This kind of bloat imposes real costs on
> the users that matter - namely the literate ones, who value predictable,
> stable and bug-free code - in exchange for entirely unclear benefits.


No one user matters more than another.  musl's own self-description is:

"musl is lightweight, fast, simple, free, and strives to be correct in
the sense of standards-conformance and safety."

Locale support can be lightweight, fast, simple, free, and correct.  In
fact, musl is *not* conformant to the POSIX standard *because* it does
not implement the requisite locale support.

The benefits are the ability for people in non-English speaking cultures
and countries to be able to use systems based on musl instead of being
stuck with inferior alternatives.

Anglocentrism has no place in Libre software.


> Especially considering the rate at which bugs are still turning up,
> there is no justification for this added complexity. In any event we
> will not be using "upgrades" that import additional nonsense into this
> critical system component.

There is absolutely justification for these features: Wolfram Alpha[1]
quotes the number of English speakers to be approximately 11% of the
world population.

That means 89% of living people on Earth cannot currently fully utilise
musl-based systems the way they could if it was possible to support
non-English languages.  Adding better locale support will fix this.


--arw


[1]: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=number+of+english+speakers

-- 
A. Wilcox (awilfox)
Project Lead, Adélie Linux
https://www.adelielinux.org


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [musl] Locale support considered harmful noise
  2020-02-18 21:42 ` A. Wilcox
@ 2020-02-18 22:23   ` Hadrien Lacour
  2020-02-18 23:29     ` [musl] race condition in sem_wait Sebastian Gottschall
  2020-02-19 21:28   ` [musl] Locale support considered harmful noise Jacob Welsh
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Hadrien Lacour @ 2020-02-18 22:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: musl

>No one user matters more than another.
Except the ones actually doing the work.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [musl] race condition in sem_wait
  2020-02-18 22:23   ` Hadrien Lacour
@ 2020-02-18 23:29     ` Sebastian Gottschall
  2020-02-19  0:46       ` Sebastian Gottschall
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Gottschall @ 2020-02-18 23:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: musl

Hello

i discovered recently a race condition while playing with threads and 
sem_wait/sem_post
sem_wait may fail with errno set EAGAIN which is not valid since only 
sem_trywait is able to set that errno code.
this was causing a bug with a later select() and accept() which failed 
since accept does not work if errno is set to EAGAIN.
from my point of view the bug is in sem_timedwait.c

         if (!sem_trywait(sem)) return 0;

         int spins = 100;
         while (spins-- && sem->__val[0] <= 0 && !sem->__val[1]) a_spin();

         while (sem_trywait(sem)) {


the fist sem_trywait will fail with -1 and sets EAGAIN. but the second 
sem_trywait will not fail and does return 0. the problem now is that 
errno is still present and not reset.
this may cause if sem_post is called from a second thread on the same 
semaphore.
of course the same bug affects sem_timedwait itself.
so i assume sem_wait is not thread safe which is bad and is not follow 
the posix specification

or am i wrong here?


Sebastian



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [musl] race condition in sem_wait
  2020-02-18 23:29     ` [musl] race condition in sem_wait Sebastian Gottschall
@ 2020-02-19  0:46       ` Sebastian Gottschall
  2020-02-19  3:39         ` Rich Felker
  2020-02-19  4:07         ` Bobby Bingham
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Gottschall @ 2020-02-19  0:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: musl

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Hello

i discovered recently a race condition while playing with threads and 
sem_wait/sem_post
sem_wait may fail with errno set EAGAIN which is not valid since only 
sem_trywait is able to set that errno code.
this was causing a bug with a later select() and accept() which failed 
since accept does not work if errno is set to EAGAIN.
from my point of view the bug is in sem_timedwait.c

         if (!sem_trywait(sem)) return 0;

         int spins = 100;
         while (spins-- && sem->__val[0] <= 0 && !sem->__val[1]) a_spin();

         while (sem_trywait(sem)) {


the fist sem_trywait will fail with -1 and sets EAGAIN. but the second 
sem_trywait will not fail and does return 0. the problem now is that 
errno is still present and not reset.
this may cause if sem_post is called from a second thread on the same 
semaphore.
of course the same bug affects sem_timedwait itself.
so i assume sem_wait is not thread safe which is bad and is not follow 
the posix specification

or am i wrong here?


Sebastian



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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [musl] Locale support considered harmful noise
  2020-02-18 19:38 [musl] Locale support considered harmful noise Jacob Welsh
  2020-02-18 21:42 ` A. Wilcox
@ 2020-02-19  3:36 ` Rich Felker
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Rich Felker @ 2020-02-19  3:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: musl

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 07:38:29PM +0000, Jacob Welsh wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> In TMSR we've made extensive use of musl, due to the very welcome
> dose of clear and concise code it provides as compared to the
> competition [1]. For example we have a static Ada compiler [2], the
> Bitcoin reference implementation [3], a reproducible and
> self-contained Gentoo system [4], and not least of all my own
> distribution [5] used in my consulting business [6].
> 
> However, the apparent goal of aggressive expansion of Unicode and
> localization "features" in musl sets off alarms; for instance, on
> the roadmap [7] I see:

I think you're rather under-informed on this topic. Basically none of
the following add any complexity:

> >Unicode 12.1 update and related character handling work

This was (1) an update of existing tables and (2) throwing out
hand-written case mapping code that made lots of fragile assumptions
and had to be updated by hand with every addition of new case
mappings, and that got slower with each addition, and replacing it
with a table-based approach I'd designed a year or so ago that's more
like the rest of the character tables and admits automatic generation.

> >Locale support overhaul.

This is not adding anything new but fixing bugs where the code that's
already there doesn't work as intended.

> >Hostname resolver support for non-ASCII domains (IDN)
> 
> >LC_COLLATE support for collation orders other than simple codepoint order

These have been serious missing functionality since the beginning.
There is no change here. If you missed them being on the roadmap for
the past 6+ years, you weren't looking very closely.

> >Support for LC_MONETARY and LC_NUMERIC properties.

This is the only item that's controversial, but you don't seem to be
coming from a good position to have input on it.

> >Message translation support for dynamic linker

This has also been on the agenda for a long time. It's the only place
in musl where format strings containing natural-language text are
used, and format strings are not candidates for translation because
it's unsafe (data can replace format specifiers with incompatible
ones), making it inconsistent with the rest of musl which does have
message translation support.

> >Locale data and libc message translations

This is purely a matter of creating data to be used with functionality
that already exists.

> We think this is such a bad idea that it threatens to undermine
> musl's otherwise substantial virtues. This kind of bloat imposes
> real costs on the users that matter - namely the literate ones, who
> value predictable, stable and bug-free code - in exchange for
> entirely unclear benefits.

If you think the above imply bloat, musl must already be bloated.

You should probably be aware that first-class support for all
characters in Unicode (vs glibc's bloated gconv-plugin layer for UTF-8
which originally made GNU grep over 100x slower than in 8-bit codepage
locales) was _THE_ original motivation for what became musl. None of
this is new. Not treating users like they're "illiterate" if they want
to be able to write their own name has always been the most important
core value of the project, and your attitude towards the matter here
does not make me interested in going out of my way to cater to you. I
suspect others in this community feel similarly.

> Especially considering the rate at which bugs are still turning up,
> there is no justification for this added complexity. In any event we
> will not be using "upgrades" that import additional nonsense into
> this critical system component.

If you want to stick with old versions and maintain them yourself or
pay someone else to do so, that's your choice.

Rich

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [musl] race condition in sem_wait
  2020-02-19  0:46       ` Sebastian Gottschall
@ 2020-02-19  3:39         ` Rich Felker
  2020-02-19  8:26           ` Sebastian Gottschall
  2020-02-19  4:07         ` Bobby Bingham
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Rich Felker @ 2020-02-19  3:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: musl

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 01:46:34AM +0100, Sebastian Gottschall wrote:
> Hello
> 
> i discovered recently a race condition while playing with threads
> and sem_wait/sem_post
> sem_wait may fail with errno set EAGAIN which is not valid since
> only sem_trywait is able to set that errno code.
> this was causing a bug with a later select() and accept() which
> failed since accept does not work if errno is set to EAGAIN.
> from my point of view the bug is in sem_timedwait.c
> 
>         if (!sem_trywait(sem)) return 0;
> 
>         int spins = 100;
>         while (spins-- && sem->__val[0] <= 0 && !sem->__val[1]) a_spin();
> 
>         while (sem_trywait(sem)) {
> 
> 
> the fist sem_trywait will fail with -1 and sets EAGAIN. but the
> second sem_trywait will not fail and does return 0. the problem now
> is that errno is still present and not reset.
> this may cause if sem_post is called from a second thread on the
> same semaphore.
> of course the same bug affects sem_timedwait itself.
> so i assume sem_wait is not thread safe which is bad and is not
> follow the posix specification
> 
> or am i wrong here?

errno is only meaningful on failure; unless specified otherwise (a few
functions are special because you can't [easily] distinguish success
from failure for them without examining errno), any standard function
may have changed the value of errno when it returns with success. The
only thing it's not allowed to do is clear it (set it to 0).

Rich

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [musl] race condition in sem_wait
  2020-02-19  0:46       ` Sebastian Gottschall
  2020-02-19  3:39         ` Rich Felker
@ 2020-02-19  4:07         ` Bobby Bingham
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Bobby Bingham @ 2020-02-19  4:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: musl

Sebastian Gottschall <s.gottschall@newmedia-net.de> writes:

> Hello
>
> i discovered recently a race condition while playing with threads and
> sem_wait/sem_post
> sem_wait may fail with errno set EAGAIN which is not valid since only
> sem_trywait is able to set that errno code.
> this was causing a bug with a later select() and accept() which failed
> since accept does not work if errno is set to EAGAIN.

Whether select/accept work or not should not be impacted by any existing
value in errno.

> from my point of view the bug is in sem_timedwait.c
>
>         if (!sem_trywait(sem)) return 0;
>
>         int spins = 100;
>         while (spins-- && sem->__val[0] <= 0 && !sem->__val[1]) a_spin();
>
>         while (sem_trywait(sem)) {
>
>
> the fist sem_trywait will fail with -1 and sets EAGAIN. but the second
> sem_trywait will not fail and does return 0. the problem now is that
> errno is still present and not reset.
> this may cause if sem_post is called from a second thread on the same
> semaphore.
> of course the same bug affects sem_timedwait itself.
> so i assume sem_wait is not thread safe which is bad and is not follow
> the posix specification

To quote POSIX [1]:

    The value of errno should only be examined when it is indicated to
    be valid by a function's return value. [...] The setting of errno
    after a successful call to a function is unspecified unless the
    description of that function specifies that errno shall not be
    modified.

If sem_wait() returns zero, then the value in errno after the call
returns is not meaningful in any way.

[1] https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/errno.html

>
> or am i wrong here?
>
>
> Sebastian

Bobby

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [musl] race condition in sem_wait
  2020-02-19  3:39         ` Rich Felker
@ 2020-02-19  8:26           ` Sebastian Gottschall
  2020-02-19 14:13             ` Rich Felker
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Sebastian Gottschall @ 2020-02-19  8:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: musl


Am 19.02.2020 um 04:39 schrieb Rich Felker:
> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 01:46:34AM +0100, Sebastian Gottschall wrote:
>> Hello
>>
>> i discovered recently a race condition while playing with threads
>> and sem_wait/sem_post
>> sem_wait may fail with errno set EAGAIN which is not valid since
>> only sem_trywait is able to set that errno code.
>> this was causing a bug with a later select() and accept() which
>> failed since accept does not work if errno is set to EAGAIN.
>> from my point of view the bug is in sem_timedwait.c
>>
>>          if (!sem_trywait(sem)) return 0;
>>
>>          int spins = 100;
>>          while (spins-- && sem->__val[0] <= 0 && !sem->__val[1]) a_spin();
>>
>>          while (sem_trywait(sem)) {
>>
>>
>> the fist sem_trywait will fail with -1 and sets EAGAIN. but the
>> second sem_trywait will not fail and does return 0. the problem now
>> is that errno is still present and not reset.
>> this may cause if sem_post is called from a second thread on the
>> same semaphore.
>> of course the same bug affects sem_timedwait itself.
>> so i assume sem_wait is not thread safe which is bad and is not
>> follow the posix specification
>>
>> or am i wrong here?
> errno is only meaningful on failure; unless specified otherwise (a few
> functions are special because you can't [easily] distinguish success
> from failure for them without examining errno), any standard function
> may have changed the value of errno when it returns with success. The
> only thing it's not allowed to do is clear it (set it to 0).
the problem is the posix manual specifies exclicit that EAGAIN cannot be 
returned by sem_wait and in my code sample

the following happens

sem_wait(semaphort)
select(....)
socket = accept(....)  -> fails

accept fails because sem_wait did set errno to EAGAIN and accept will 
fail if errno is set to EAGAIN
i use sem_wait to limit the number of threads in my webserver. on the 
thread itself i call sem_post.
but to make it work correct i have to set errno=0 before calling accept 
since accept will not work if errno is set to EAGAIN
if you read the posix man for accept, you will find out that accept will 
read errno unconditional and this is also the case for the musl 
implementation


Sebastian

>
> Rich
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [musl] race condition in sem_wait
  2020-02-19  8:26           ` Sebastian Gottschall
@ 2020-02-19 14:13             ` Rich Felker
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Rich Felker @ 2020-02-19 14:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: musl

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 09:26:30AM +0100, Sebastian Gottschall wrote:
> 
> Am 19.02.2020 um 04:39 schrieb Rich Felker:
> >On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 01:46:34AM +0100, Sebastian Gottschall wrote:
> >>Hello
> >>
> >>i discovered recently a race condition while playing with threads
> >>and sem_wait/sem_post
> >>sem_wait may fail with errno set EAGAIN which is not valid since
> >>only sem_trywait is able to set that errno code.
> >>this was causing a bug with a later select() and accept() which
> >>failed since accept does not work if errno is set to EAGAIN.
> >>from my point of view the bug is in sem_timedwait.c
> >>
> >>         if (!sem_trywait(sem)) return 0;
> >>
> >>         int spins = 100;
> >>         while (spins-- && sem->__val[0] <= 0 && !sem->__val[1]) a_spin();
> >>
> >>         while (sem_trywait(sem)) {
> >>
> >>
> >>the fist sem_trywait will fail with -1 and sets EAGAIN. but the
> >>second sem_trywait will not fail and does return 0. the problem now
> >>is that errno is still present and not reset.
> >>this may cause if sem_post is called from a second thread on the
> >>same semaphore.
> >>of course the same bug affects sem_timedwait itself.
> >>so i assume sem_wait is not thread safe which is bad and is not
> >>follow the posix specification
> >>
> >>or am i wrong here?
> >errno is only meaningful on failure; unless specified otherwise (a few
> >functions are special because you can't [easily] distinguish success
> >from failure for them without examining errno), any standard function
> >may have changed the value of errno when it returns with success. The
> >only thing it's not allowed to do is clear it (set it to 0).
> the problem is the posix manual specifies exclicit that EAGAIN
> cannot be returned by sem_wait and in my code sample
> 
> the following happens
> 
> sem_wait(semaphort)
> select(....)
> socket = accept(....)  -> fails
> 
> accept fails because sem_wait did set errno to EAGAIN and accept
> will fail if errno is set to EAGAIN
> i use sem_wait to limit the number of threads in my webserver. on
> the thread itself i call sem_post.
> but to make it work correct i have to set errno=0 before calling
> accept since accept will not work if errno is set to EAGAIN
> if you read the posix man for accept, you will find out that accept
> will read errno unconditional and this is also the case for the musl
> implementation

accept does not use errno as input. Unless I'm forgetting something,
no interfaces in libc except perror, syslog (%m), and *printf (%m
extension) use errno as input. If accept is failing (returning -1)
with errno==EAGAIN it's not because errno was EAGAIN before you called
it but because your listening socket is in non-blocking mode and there
is no pending connection to accept.

Rich

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [musl] Locale support considered harmful noise
  2020-02-18 21:42 ` A. Wilcox
  2020-02-18 22:23   ` Hadrien Lacour
@ 2020-02-19 21:28   ` Jacob Welsh
  2020-02-19 22:06     ` Rich Felker
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Jacob Welsh @ 2020-02-19 21:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: musl

On Tue, 18 Feb 2020, A. Wilcox wrote:

> Why do you not believe that musl could provide any of these features
> using clear and concise code?

I fully expect it could. The point at issue however is whether it should 
be done at all.

> I have been personally impacted by the lack of LC_COLLATE support.

I have been personally "impacted" by its presence in glibc, but perhaps 
I'm not the sort of "real world" user whose needs you would like to 
represent.

> This will allow non-English speakers the ability to understand the
> errors that are happening on the computers they own.

You may be overestimating a bit there the abilities of most English 
speakers to "communicate with their computers" or specifically to decode 
error messages; anyway, what your approach actually does is to fragment 
the knowledge base and herd people *away* from where they might find the 
best information.

Now, this dispute is at least as old as the Protestant Reformation so I do 
not expect or require it to be settled here.

> In fact, musl is *not* conformant to the POSIX standard *because* it 
> does not implement the requisite locale support.

We're prepared to fork POSIX or any other document that proves necessary. 
Not like it's hard.

On the other hand, I suppose someone will get right to work translating 
POSIX and all the musl code and commentary to every presently spoken 
language, because after all they look mighty Anglocentric to me and no one 
coder's needs matter more than another's.

Sarcasm aside, I'm satisfied that our differences have been made clear and 
am happy to let it rest.

Yours truly,

J. Welsh
http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* Re: [musl] Locale support considered harmful noise
  2020-02-19 21:28   ` [musl] Locale support considered harmful noise Jacob Welsh
@ 2020-02-19 22:06     ` Rich Felker
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Rich Felker @ 2020-02-19 22:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: musl

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 09:28:10PM +0000, Jacob Welsh wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Feb 2020, A. Wilcox wrote:
> 
> >Why do you not believe that musl could provide any of these features
> >using clear and concise code?
> 
> I fully expect it could. The point at issue however is whether it
> should be done at all.
> 
> >I have been personally impacted by the lack of LC_COLLATE support.
> 
> I have been personally "impacted" by its presence in glibc, but
> perhaps I'm not the sort of "real world" user whose needs you would
> like to represent.

You avoid this by not setting LANG, LC_COLLATE, or LC_ALL in your
environment, or by ensuring that the one that takes precedence yields
a result of C or C.UTF-8 for the LC_COLLATE category. Plenty of users,
myself included, prefer codepoint order for directory listings and
such. This does not conflict in any way with providing support for
other collation orders that are useful for things like sorting
natural-language CSV tables, etc.

> >In fact, musl is *not* conformant to the POSIX standard *because*
> >it does not implement the requisite locale support.
> 
> We're prepared to fork POSIX or any other document that proves
> necessary. Not like it's hard.

No comment.

Rich

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

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Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-02-18 19:38 [musl] Locale support considered harmful noise Jacob Welsh
2020-02-18 21:42 ` A. Wilcox
2020-02-18 22:23   ` Hadrien Lacour
2020-02-18 23:29     ` [musl] race condition in sem_wait Sebastian Gottschall
2020-02-19  0:46       ` Sebastian Gottschall
2020-02-19  3:39         ` Rich Felker
2020-02-19  8:26           ` Sebastian Gottschall
2020-02-19 14:13             ` Rich Felker
2020-02-19  4:07         ` Bobby Bingham
2020-02-19 21:28   ` [musl] Locale support considered harmful noise Jacob Welsh
2020-02-19 22:06     ` Rich Felker
2020-02-19  3:36 ` Rich Felker

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