* [NTG-context] can we do binding correction? @ 2024-03-17 21:48 Hraban Ramm 2024-03-17 22:54 ` [NTG-context] " Wolfgang Schuster 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Hraban Ramm @ 2024-03-17 21:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hi, this question was rised in my ConTeXt beginners workshop* at Chemnitz Linux Days today: Can I configure binding correction for saddle-stitched or thread-bound booklets, and if, does it only work with arranging (imposition) or can I enable it somehow for the layout (if the printshop does the imposition)? Also I recognized I'm not sure about the difference of the layout parameters backspace and cutspace. Hraban *) 8 participants who endured 3 hours of me mostly talking… Further questions that I couldn't answer for sure were about PDF/A or PDF/UA and how color profiles are handled within ConTeXt and at printshops (my monitor is profiled, but I know I have to edit images "too bright" to have them look right in print). I need to investigate further before I can ask precise questions. When JUH yesterday had his shorter talk about "corporate publishing with Markdown and ConTeXt", the lecture hall was stuffed. ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [NTG-context] Re: can we do binding correction? 2024-03-17 21:48 [NTG-context] can we do binding correction? Hraban Ramm @ 2024-03-17 22:54 ` Wolfgang Schuster 2024-03-18 16:35 ` Hraban Ramm 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2024-03-17 22:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Hraban Ramm Hraban Ramm schrieb am 17.03.2024 um 22:48: > Hi, this question was rised in my ConTeXt beginners workshop* at > Chemnitz Linux Days today: > > Can I configure binding correction for saddle-stitched or thread-bound > booklets, and if, does it only work with arranging (imposition) or can > I enable it somehow for the layout (if the printshop does the > imposition)? 1. \definepageshift + \setuppageshift 2. \setuplayout[horoffset=<DIMENSION>] > Also I recognized I'm not sure about the difference of the layout > parameters backspace and cutspace. backspace is the inner margin and cutspace the outer Wolfgang ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [NTG-context] Re: can we do binding correction? 2024-03-17 22:54 ` [NTG-context] " Wolfgang Schuster @ 2024-03-18 16:35 ` Hraban Ramm 2024-03-19 16:01 ` Willi Egger 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Hraban Ramm @ 2024-03-18 16:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Am 17.03.24 um 23:54 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster: > Hraban Ramm schrieb am 17.03.2024 um 22:48: >> Hi, this question was rised in my ConTeXt beginners workshop* at >> Chemnitz Linux Days today: >> >> Can I configure binding correction for saddle-stitched or >> thread-bound booklets, and if, does it only work with arranging >> (imposition) or can I enable it somehow for the layout (if the >> printshop does the imposition)? > > 1. \definepageshift + \setuppageshift > > 2. \setuplayout[horoffset=<DIMENSION>] > >> Also I recognized I'm not sure about the difference of the layout >> parameters backspace and cutspace. > > backspace is the inner margin and cutspace the outer > Hi Wolfgang, thank you! Seems like I was too dense to understand the description for the \setuplayout parameters in the wiki (and there are more that I never used, oh my…), and since I never use ConTeXt’s imposition for serious print products (and never set up a scheme myself), I didn’t know about pageshift. Ok, if I leave imposition to the printshop and they don't do binding correction in their workflow, I'd need to set horoffset differently for every single page (i.e. first, second, second-to-last and last the same; 3th, 4th and from back the same etc.). Or is pageshift applied independently from arranging? And then, it makes no sense to add the same value all the time. I don’t know if BCOR works this way in LaTeX, but one value (paper thickness) should be enough in combination with an imposition schema. I.e. if I define a paper thickness and the number of pages that are in one booklet (as a single booklet or part of a "proper" book), then the page shift should work automatically. Well, for a single booklet, it could. In a book, booklets can have different numbers of pages, and then you'd need to define a list… Okay, too complicated. It’s the printshops's responsibility anyway, and nobody complained about my books so far. (I'm not perfectionist enough to care.) Hraban ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [NTG-context] Re: can we do binding correction? 2024-03-18 16:35 ` Hraban Ramm @ 2024-03-19 16:01 ` Willi Egger 2024-03-19 20:56 ` Hraban Ramm 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Willi Egger @ 2024-03-19 16:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hi Hraban, I think we should clarify this. Binding correction is a fixed amount of whitespace in the spine added to the inner white-space. This is to ensure, that the binding, which is consuming white-space, keeps the inner white-space optically as intended.. The page shift mechanism works only with imposition enabled. This ensures, that the type-setting area does not creep towards the spine because multiple sheets of paper are folded in the spine. I doubt whether it is enough to have the measure of the thickness do determine this creeping effect, because we are making folds which are probably more circles than just adding thickness of paper. Willi > On 18 Mar 2024, at 17:35, Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net> wrote: > > > Am 17.03.24 um 23:54 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster: >> Hraban Ramm schrieb am 17.03.2024 um 22:48: >>> Hi, this question was rised in my ConTeXt beginners workshop* at Chemnitz Linux Days today: >>> >>> Can I configure binding correction for saddle-stitched or thread-bound booklets, and if, does it only work with arranging (imposition) or can I enable it somehow for the layout (if the printshop does the imposition)? >> >> 1. \definepageshift + \setuppageshift >> >> 2. \setuplayout[horoffset=<DIMENSION>] >> >>> Also I recognized I'm not sure about the difference of the layout parameters backspace and cutspace. >> >> backspace is the inner margin and cutspace the outer >> > Hi Wolfgang, thank you! Seems like I was too dense to understand the description for the \setuplayout parameters in the wiki (and there are more that I never used, oh my…), and since I never use ConTeXt’s imposition for serious print products (and never set up a scheme myself), I didn’t know about pageshift. > > Ok, if I leave imposition to the printshop and they don't do binding correction in their workflow, I'd need to set horoffset differently for every single page (i.e. first, second, second-to-last and last the same; 3th, 4th and from back the same etc.). Or is pageshift applied independently from arranging? > > And then, it makes no sense to add the same value all the time. I don’t know if BCOR works this way in LaTeX, but one value (paper thickness) should be enough in combination with an imposition schema. I.e. if I define a paper thickness and the number of pages that are in one booklet (as a single booklet or part of a "proper" book), then the page shift should work automatically. > > Well, for a single booklet, it could. In a book, booklets can have different numbers of pages, and then you'd need to define a list… Okay, too complicated. It’s the printshops's responsibility anyway, and nobody complained about my books so far. (I'm not perfectionist enough to care.) > > Hraban > > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl > webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) > archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context > wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [NTG-context] Re: can we do binding correction? 2024-03-19 16:01 ` Willi Egger @ 2024-03-19 20:56 ` Hraban Ramm 2024-03-19 22:42 ` Willi Egger 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Hraban Ramm @ 2024-03-19 20:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context Thank you Willi! Generally I know for what binding correction is used, I just never tried to set it up. If I look carefully at one of our printed booklets, the printshop also didn’t. So I'd need pageshift without applying imposition (setting it up wouldn’t hurt). I didn’t think about vertical pageshift, but of course that’s also needed for cross-folded sheets. I'm not sure how (horizontal) pageshift is supposed to work with full page images without introducing white borders, but bleed at the inner edge should be enough. Theoretically the shift value should be the same as the paper thickness (don’t you think?), but there’s some deformation involved, so a factor might make sense? Unfortunately I threw out my old books on printing technology long ago, and my newer one doesn’t cover bookbinding (I’m not at home anyway). Hraban Am 19.03.24 um 17:01 schrieb Willi Egger: > Hi Hraban, > > I think we should clarify this. > > Binding correction is a fixed amount of whitespace in the spine added to the inner white-space. This is to ensure, that the binding, which is consuming white-space, keeps the inner white-space optically as intended.. > > The page shift mechanism works only with imposition enabled. This ensures, that the type-setting area does not creep towards the spine because multiple sheets of paper are folded in the spine. > > I doubt whether it is enough to have the measure of the thickness do determine this creeping effect, because we are making folds which are probably more circles than just adding thickness of paper. > > > Willi > >> On 18 Mar 2024, at 17:35, Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net> wrote: >> >> >> Am 17.03.24 um 23:54 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster: >>> Hraban Ramm schrieb am 17.03.2024 um 22:48: >>>> Hi, this question was rised in my ConTeXt beginners workshop* at Chemnitz Linux Days today: >>>> >>>> Can I configure binding correction for saddle-stitched or thread-bound booklets, and if, does it only work with arranging (imposition) or can I enable it somehow for the layout (if the printshop does the imposition)? >>> 1. \definepageshift + \setuppageshift >>> >>> 2. \setuplayout[horoffset=<DIMENSION>] >>> >>>> Also I recognized I'm not sure about the difference of the layout parameters backspace and cutspace. >>> backspace is the inner margin and cutspace the outer >>> >> Hi Wolfgang, thank you! Seems like I was too dense to understand the description for the \setuplayout parameters in the wiki (and there are more that I never used, oh my…), and since I never use ConTeXt’s imposition for serious print products (and never set up a scheme myself), I didn’t know about pageshift. >> >> Ok, if I leave imposition to the printshop and they don't do binding correction in their workflow, I'd need to set horoffset differently for every single page (i.e. first, second, second-to-last and last the same; 3th, 4th and from back the same etc.). Or is pageshift applied independently from arranging? >> >> And then, it makes no sense to add the same value all the time. I don’t know if BCOR works this way in LaTeX, but one value (paper thickness) should be enough in combination with an imposition schema. I.e. if I define a paper thickness and the number of pages that are in one booklet (as a single booklet or part of a "proper" book), then the page shift should work automatically. >> >> Well, for a single booklet, it could. In a book, booklets can have different numbers of pages, and then you'd need to define a list… Okay, too complicated. It’s the printshops's responsibility anyway, and nobody complained about my books so far. (I'm not perfectionist enough to care.) >> >> Hraban >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! >> >> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl >> webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) >> archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context >> wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl > webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) > archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context > wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [NTG-context] Re: can we do binding correction? 2024-03-19 20:56 ` Hraban Ramm @ 2024-03-19 22:42 ` Willi Egger 2024-03-20 6:56 ` Hraban Ramm 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Willi Egger @ 2024-03-19 22:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hi Hraban, > On 19 Mar 2024, at 21:56, Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net> wrote: > > Thank you Willi! > > Generally I know for what binding correction is used, I just never tried to set it up. If I look carefully at one of our printed booklets, the printshop also didn’t. So I'd need pageshift without applying imposition (setting it up wouldn’t hurt). I organise this always with correction to the backspace. > > I didn’t think about vertical pageshift, but of course that’s also needed for cross-folded sheets. > > I'm not sure how (horizontal) pageshift is supposed to work with full page images without introducing white borders, but bleed at the inner edge should be enough. > > Theoretically the shift value should be the same as the paper thickness (don’t you think?), but there’s some deformation involved, so a factor might make sense? I think that this would be quite cumbersome, paper thickness of higly coated papers vs. novel-printing paper… I believe one would have to establish this thickness for each project unless the same paper is used... > Unfortunately I threw out my old books on printing technology long ago, and my newer one doesn’t cover bookbinding (I’m not at home anyway). I think, that many printshops do not possess neither old books including bookbinding nor do they care about the wishes of the binder … Pity, that you threw them out, but i understand, that circumstances might be such that you have to take decisions… Willi > > Hraban > > Am 19.03.24 um 17:01 schrieb Willi Egger: >> Hi Hraban, >> >> I think we should clarify this. >> >> Binding correction is a fixed amount of whitespace in the spine added to the inner white-space. This is to ensure, that the binding, which is consuming white-space, keeps the inner white-space optically as intended.. >> >> The page shift mechanism works only with imposition enabled. This ensures, that the type-setting area does not creep towards the spine because multiple sheets of paper are folded in the spine. >> >> I doubt whether it is enough to have the measure of the thickness do determine this creeping effect, because we are making folds which are probably more circles than just adding thickness of paper. >> >> >> Willi >> >>> On 18 Mar 2024, at 17:35, Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Am 17.03.24 um 23:54 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster: >>>> Hraban Ramm schrieb am 17.03.2024 um 22:48: >>>>> Hi, this question was rised in my ConTeXt beginners workshop* at Chemnitz Linux Days today: >>>>> >>>>> Can I configure binding correction for saddle-stitched or thread-bound booklets, and if, does it only work with arranging (imposition) or can I enable it somehow for the layout (if the printshop does the imposition)? >>>> 1. \definepageshift + \setuppageshift >>>> >>>> 2. \setuplayout[horoffset=<DIMENSION>] >>>> >>>>> Also I recognized I'm not sure about the difference of the layout parameters backspace and cutspace. >>>> backspace is the inner margin and cutspace the outer >>>> >>> Hi Wolfgang, thank you! Seems like I was too dense to understand the description for the \setuplayout parameters in the wiki (and there are more that I never used, oh my…), and since I never use ConTeXt’s imposition for serious print products (and never set up a scheme myself), I didn’t know about pageshift. >>> >>> Ok, if I leave imposition to the printshop and they don't do binding correction in their workflow, I'd need to set horoffset differently for every single page (i.e. first, second, second-to-last and last the same; 3th, 4th and from back the same etc.). Or is pageshift applied independently from arranging? >>> >>> And then, it makes no sense to add the same value all the time. I don’t know if BCOR works this way in LaTeX, but one value (paper thickness) should be enough in combination with an imposition schema. I.e. if I define a paper thickness and the number of pages that are in one booklet (as a single booklet or part of a "proper" book), then the page shift should work automatically. >>> >>> Well, for a single booklet, it could. In a book, booklets can have different numbers of pages, and then you'd need to define a list… Okay, too complicated. It’s the printshops's responsibility anyway, and nobody complained about my books so far. (I'm not perfectionist enough to care.) >>> >>> Hraban >>> >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! >>> >>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl >>> webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) >>> archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context >>> wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net >>> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! >> >> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl >> webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) >> archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context >> wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl > webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) > archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context > wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [NTG-context] Re: can we do binding correction? 2024-03-19 22:42 ` Willi Egger @ 2024-03-20 6:56 ` Hraban Ramm 0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Hraban Ramm @ 2024-03-20 6:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2361 bytes --] Am 19.03.24 um 23:42 schrieb Willi Egger: >> Generally I know for what binding correction is used, I just never tried to set it up. If I look carefully at one of our printed booklets, the printshop also didn’t. So I'd need pageshift without applying imposition (setting it up wouldn’t hurt). > I organise this always with correction to the backspace. For every single page? > >> Theoretically the shift value should be the same as the paper thickness (don’t you think?), but there’s some deformation involved, so a factor might make sense? > I think that this would be quite cumbersome, paper thickness of higly coated papers vs. novel-printing paper… I believe one would have to establish this thickness for each project unless the same paper is used... No, I meant, I'd use the actual paper thickness as a parameter, so that paper shift could be calculated automatically with a geometrical factor according to the imposition schema. Don't you think that makes more sense than setting it for single pages? But while this is an interesting topic, it's one of these overly involved niche features in ConTeXt… I didn't care too much myself, and laypeople don't see it anyway. > >> Unfortunately I threw out my old books on printing technology long ago, and my newer one doesn’t cover bookbinding (I’m not at home anyway). > I think, that many printshops do not possess neither old books including bookbinding nor do they care about the wishes of the binder … Pity, that you threw them out, but i understand, that circumstances might be such that you have to take decisions… When we left Switzerland in 2012 for Freiburg (and then again Freiburg in 2013 for Kyrgyzstan), we had to drop ballast, and I still had too many books (if you can have too many books at all…). I had a lot on art techniques like calligraphy that I never used, and my printing technology stuff was outdated – well… The antiquarian gave me 30€ for a big pile of formerly expensive books, and he probably was generous. Since then I gained a publishing house and had to move three times, my moving helpers were not amused about that many book boxes. (The last move was into the 3rd story, or is this 4th?, of an old house with very high stories; if visitors arrive panting at my door, I tell them they can sign the summit register now…) Hraban [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 3540 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 511 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror) archive : https://github.com/contextgarden/context wiki : https://wiki.contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2024-03-20 6:58 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2024-03-17 21:48 [NTG-context] can we do binding correction? Hraban Ramm 2024-03-17 22:54 ` [NTG-context] " Wolfgang Schuster 2024-03-18 16:35 ` Hraban Ramm 2024-03-19 16:01 ` Willi Egger 2024-03-19 20:56 ` Hraban Ramm 2024-03-19 22:42 ` Willi Egger 2024-03-20 6:56 ` Hraban Ramm
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