[NTG-context] can we do binding correction?

[NTG-context] can we do binding correction?

[Hraban Ramm]

Hi, this question was rised in my ConTeXt beginners workshop* at 
Chemnitz Linux Days today:

Can I configure binding correction for saddle-stitched or thread-bound 
booklets, and if, does it only work with arranging (imposition) or can I 
enable it somehow for the layout (if the printshop does the imposition)?

Also I recognized I'm not sure about the difference of the layout 
parameters backspace and cutspace.

Hraban

*) 8 participants who endured 3 hours of me mostly talking… Further 
questions that I couldn't answer for sure were about PDF/A or PDF/UA and 
how color profiles are handled within ConTeXt and at printshops (my 
monitor is profiled, but I know I have to edit images "too bright" to 
have them look right in print). I need to investigate further before I 
can ask precise questions.

When JUH yesterday had his shorter talk about "corporate publishing with 
Markdown and ConTeXt", the lecture hall was stuffed.

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[NTG-context] Re: can we do binding correction?

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Hraban Ramm schrieb am 17.03.2024 um 22:48:
> Hi, this question was rised in my ConTeXt beginners workshop* at 
> Chemnitz Linux Days today:
>
> Can I configure binding correction for saddle-stitched or thread-bound 
> booklets, and if, does it only work with arranging (imposition) or can 
> I enable it somehow for the layout (if the printshop does the 
> imposition)?

1. \definepageshift + \setuppageshift

2. \setuplayout[horoffset=<DIMENSION>]

> Also I recognized I'm not sure about the difference of the layout 
> parameters backspace and cutspace.

backspace is the inner margin and cutspace the outer

Wolfgang

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[NTG-context] Re: can we do binding correction?

[Hraban Ramm]

Am 17.03.24 um 23:54 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:
> Hraban Ramm schrieb am 17.03.2024 um 22:48:
>> Hi, this question was rised in my ConTeXt beginners workshop* at 
>> Chemnitz Linux Days today:
>>
>> Can I configure binding correction for saddle-stitched or 
>> thread-bound booklets, and if, does it only work with arranging 
>> (imposition) or can I enable it somehow for the layout (if the 
>> printshop does the imposition)?
>
> 1. \definepageshift + \setuppageshift
>
> 2. \setuplayout[horoffset=<DIMENSION>]
>
>> Also I recognized I'm not sure about the difference of the layout 
>> parameters backspace and cutspace.
>
> backspace is the inner margin and cutspace the outer
>
Hi Wolfgang, thank you! Seems like I was too dense to understand the 
description for the \setuplayout parameters in the wiki (and there are 
more that I never used, oh my…), and since I never use ConTeXt’s 
imposition for serious print products (and never set up a scheme 
myself), I didn’t know about pageshift.

Ok, if I leave imposition to the printshop and they don't do binding 
correction in their workflow, I'd need to set horoffset differently for 
every single page (i.e. first, second, second-to-last and last the same; 
3th, 4th and from back the same etc.). Or is pageshift applied 
independently from arranging?

And then, it makes no sense to add the same value all the time. I don’t 
know if BCOR works this way in LaTeX, but one value (paper thickness) 
should be enough in combination with an imposition schema. I.e. if I 
define a paper thickness and the number of pages that are in one booklet 
(as a single booklet or part of a "proper" book), then the page shift 
should work automatically.

Well, for a single booklet, it could. In a book, booklets can have 
different numbers of pages, and then you'd need to define a list… Okay, 
too complicated. It’s the printshops's responsibility anyway, and nobody 
complained about my books so far. (I'm not perfectionist enough to care.)

Hraban


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[NTG-context] Re: can we do binding correction?

[Willi Egger]

Hi Hraban,

I think we should clarify this.

Binding correction is a fixed amount of whitespace in the spine added to the inner white-space. This is to ensure, that the binding, which is consuming white-space, keeps the inner white-space optically as intended..

The page shift mechanism works only with imposition enabled. This ensures, that the type-setting area does not creep towards the spine because multiple sheets of paper are folded in the spine.

I doubt whether it is enough to have the measure of the thickness do determine this creeping effect, because we are making folds which are probably more circles than just adding thickness of paper.


Willi

> On 18 Mar 2024, at 17:35, Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 17.03.24 um 23:54 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:
>> Hraban Ramm schrieb am 17.03.2024 um 22:48:
>>> Hi, this question was rised in my ConTeXt beginners workshop* at Chemnitz Linux Days today:
>>> 
>>> Can I configure binding correction for saddle-stitched or thread-bound booklets, and if, does it only work with arranging (imposition) or can I enable it somehow for the layout (if the printshop does the imposition)?
>> 
>> 1. \definepageshift + \setuppageshift
>> 
>> 2. \setuplayout[horoffset=<DIMENSION>]
>> 
>>> Also I recognized I'm not sure about the difference of the layout parameters backspace and cutspace.
>> 
>> backspace is the inner margin and cutspace the outer
>> 
> Hi Wolfgang, thank you! Seems like I was too dense to understand the description for the \setuplayout parameters in the wiki (and there are more that I never used, oh my…), and since I never use ConTeXt’s imposition for serious print products (and never set up a scheme myself), I didn’t know about pageshift.
> 
> Ok, if I leave imposition to the printshop and they don't do binding correction in their workflow, I'd need to set horoffset differently for every single page (i.e. first, second, second-to-last and last the same; 3th, 4th and from back the same etc.). Or is pageshift applied independently from arranging?
> 
> And then, it makes no sense to add the same value all the time. I don’t know if BCOR works this way in LaTeX, but one value (paper thickness) should be enough in combination with an imposition schema. I.e. if I define a paper thickness and the number of pages that are in one booklet (as a single booklet or part of a "proper" book), then the page shift should work automatically.
> 
> Well, for a single booklet, it could. In a book, booklets can have different numbers of pages, and then you'd need to define a list… Okay, too complicated. It’s the printshops's responsibility anyway, and nobody complained about my books so far. (I'm not perfectionist enough to care.)
> 
> Hraban
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror)
> archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: can we do binding correction?

[Hraban Ramm]

Thank you Willi!

Generally I know for what binding correction is used, I just never tried 
to set it up. If I look carefully at one of our printed booklets, the 
printshop also didn’t. So I'd need pageshift without applying imposition 
(setting it up wouldn’t hurt).

I didn’t think about vertical pageshift, but of course that’s also 
needed for cross-folded sheets.

I'm not sure how (horizontal) pageshift is supposed to work with full 
page images without introducing white borders, but bleed at the inner 
edge should be enough.

Theoretically the shift value should be the same as the paper thickness 
(don’t you think?), but there’s some deformation involved, so a factor 
might make sense?

Unfortunately I threw out my old books on printing technology long ago, 
and my newer one doesn’t cover bookbinding (I’m not at home anyway).

Hraban

Am 19.03.24 um 17:01 schrieb Willi Egger:
> Hi Hraban,
>
> I think we should clarify this.
>
> Binding correction is a fixed amount of whitespace in the spine added to the inner white-space. This is to ensure, that the binding, which is consuming white-space, keeps the inner white-space optically as intended..
>
> The page shift mechanism works only with imposition enabled. This ensures, that the type-setting area does not creep towards the spine because multiple sheets of paper are folded in the spine.
>
> I doubt whether it is enough to have the measure of the thickness do determine this creeping effect, because we are making folds which are probably more circles than just adding thickness of paper.
>
>
> Willi
>
>> On 18 Mar 2024, at 17:35, Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Am 17.03.24 um 23:54 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:
>>> Hraban Ramm schrieb am 17.03.2024 um 22:48:
>>>> Hi, this question was rised in my ConTeXt beginners workshop* at Chemnitz Linux Days today:
>>>>
>>>> Can I configure binding correction for saddle-stitched or thread-bound booklets, and if, does it only work with arranging (imposition) or can I enable it somehow for the layout (if the printshop does the imposition)?
>>> 1. \definepageshift + \setuppageshift
>>>
>>> 2. \setuplayout[horoffset=<DIMENSION>]
>>>
>>>> Also I recognized I'm not sure about the difference of the layout parameters backspace and cutspace.
>>> backspace is the inner margin and cutspace the outer
>>>
>> Hi Wolfgang, thank you! Seems like I was too dense to understand the description for the \setuplayout parameters in the wiki (and there are more that I never used, oh my…), and since I never use ConTeXt’s imposition for serious print products (and never set up a scheme myself), I didn’t know about pageshift.
>>
>> Ok, if I leave imposition to the printshop and they don't do binding correction in their workflow, I'd need to set horoffset differently for every single page (i.e. first, second, second-to-last and last the same; 3th, 4th and from back the same etc.). Or is pageshift applied independently from arranging?
>>
>> And then, it makes no sense to add the same value all the time. I don’t know if BCOR works this way in LaTeX, but one value (paper thickness) should be enough in combination with an imposition schema. I.e. if I define a paper thickness and the number of pages that are in one booklet (as a single booklet or part of a "proper" book), then the page shift should work automatically.
>>
>> Well, for a single booklet, it could. In a book, booklets can have different numbers of pages, and then you'd need to define a list… Okay, too complicated. It’s the printshops's responsibility anyway, and nobody complained about my books so far. (I'm not perfectionist enough to care.)
>>
>> Hraban
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
>> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror)
>> archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
>> wiki     : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror)
> archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
> wiki     : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: can we do binding correction?

[Willi Egger]

Hi Hraban,

> On 19 Mar 2024, at 21:56, Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net> wrote:
> 
> Thank you Willi!
> 
> Generally I know for what binding correction is used, I just never tried to set it up. If I look carefully at one of our printed booklets, the printshop also didn’t. So I'd need pageshift without applying imposition (setting it up wouldn’t hurt).

I organise this always with correction to the backspace.

> 
> I didn’t think about vertical pageshift, but of course that’s also needed for cross-folded sheets.
> 
> I'm not sure how (horizontal) pageshift is supposed to work with full page images without introducing white borders, but bleed at the inner edge should be enough.
> 
> Theoretically the shift value should be the same as the paper thickness (don’t you think?), but there’s some deformation involved, so a factor might make sense?

I think that this would be quite cumbersome, paper thickness of higly coated papers vs. novel-printing paper… I believe one would have to establish this thickness for each project unless the same paper is used...


> Unfortunately I threw out my old books on printing technology long ago, and my newer one doesn’t cover bookbinding (I’m not at home anyway).

I think, that many printshops do not possess neither old books including bookbinding nor do they care about the wishes of the binder … Pity, that you threw them out, but i understand, that circumstances might be such that you have to take decisions…

Willi
> 
> Hraban
> 
> Am 19.03.24 um 17:01 schrieb Willi Egger:
>> Hi Hraban,
>> 
>> I think we should clarify this.
>> 
>> Binding correction is a fixed amount of whitespace in the spine added to the inner white-space. This is to ensure, that the binding, which is consuming white-space, keeps the inner white-space optically as intended..
>> 
>> The page shift mechanism works only with imposition enabled. This ensures, that the type-setting area does not creep towards the spine because multiple sheets of paper are folded in the spine.
>> 
>> I doubt whether it is enough to have the measure of the thickness do determine this creeping effect, because we are making folds which are probably more circles than just adding thickness of paper.
>> 
>> 
>> Willi
>> 
>>> On 18 Mar 2024, at 17:35, Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Am 17.03.24 um 23:54 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:
>>>> Hraban Ramm schrieb am 17.03.2024 um 22:48:
>>>>> Hi, this question was rised in my ConTeXt beginners workshop* at Chemnitz Linux Days today:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Can I configure binding correction for saddle-stitched or thread-bound booklets, and if, does it only work with arranging (imposition) or can I enable it somehow for the layout (if the printshop does the imposition)?
>>>> 1. \definepageshift + \setuppageshift
>>>> 
>>>> 2. \setuplayout[horoffset=<DIMENSION>]
>>>> 
>>>>> Also I recognized I'm not sure about the difference of the layout parameters backspace and cutspace.
>>>> backspace is the inner margin and cutspace the outer
>>>> 
>>> Hi Wolfgang, thank you! Seems like I was too dense to understand the description for the \setuplayout parameters in the wiki (and there are more that I never used, oh my…), and since I never use ConTeXt’s imposition for serious print products (and never set up a scheme myself), I didn’t know about pageshift.
>>> 
>>> Ok, if I leave imposition to the printshop and they don't do binding correction in their workflow, I'd need to set horoffset differently for every single page (i.e. first, second, second-to-last and last the same; 3th, 4th and from back the same etc.). Or is pageshift applied independently from arranging?
>>> 
>>> And then, it makes no sense to add the same value all the time. I don’t know if BCOR works this way in LaTeX, but one value (paper thickness) should be enough in combination with an imposition schema. I.e. if I define a paper thickness and the number of pages that are in one booklet (as a single booklet or part of a "proper" book), then the page shift should work automatically.
>>> 
>>> Well, for a single booklet, it could. In a book, booklets can have different numbers of pages, and then you'd need to define a list… Okay, too complicated. It’s the printshops's responsibility anyway, and nobody complained about my books so far. (I'm not perfectionist enough to care.)
>>> 
>>> Hraban
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>>> 
>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
>>> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror)
>>> archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
>>> wiki     : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>> 
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
>> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror)
>> archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
>> wiki     : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror)
> archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
> wiki     : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: can we do binding correction?

[Hraban Ramm]

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Am 19.03.24 um 23:42 schrieb Willi Egger:
>> Generally I know for what binding correction is used, I just never tried to set it up. If I look carefully at one of our printed booklets, the printshop also didn’t. So I'd need pageshift without applying imposition (setting it up wouldn’t hurt).
> I organise this always with correction to the backspace.
For every single page?
>
>> Theoretically the shift value should be the same as the paper thickness (don’t you think?), but there’s some deformation involved, so a factor might make sense?
> I think that this would be quite cumbersome, paper thickness of higly coated papers vs. novel-printing paper… I believe one would have to establish this thickness for each project unless the same paper is used...

No, I meant, I'd use the actual paper thickness as a parameter, so that 
paper shift could be calculated automatically with a geometrical factor 
according to the imposition schema. Don't you think that makes more 
sense than setting it for single pages?

But while this is an interesting topic, it's one of these overly 
involved niche features in ConTeXt… I didn't care too much myself, and 
laypeople don't see it anyway.

>
>> Unfortunately I threw out my old books on printing technology long ago, and my newer one doesn’t cover bookbinding (I’m not at home anyway).
> I think, that many printshops do not possess neither old books including bookbinding nor do they care about the wishes of the binder … Pity, that you threw them out, but i understand, that circumstances might be such that you have to take decisions…

When we left Switzerland in 2012 for Freiburg (and then again Freiburg 
in 2013 for Kyrgyzstan), we had to drop ballast, and I still had too 
many books (if you can have too many books at all…). I had a lot on art 
techniques like calligraphy that I never used, and my printing 
technology stuff was outdated – well… The antiquarian gave me 30€ for a 
big pile of formerly expensive books, and he probably was generous.

Since then I gained a publishing house and had to move three times, my 
moving helpers were not amused about that many book boxes. (The last 
move was into the 3rd story, or is this 4th?, of an old house with very 
high stories; if visitors arrive panting at my door, I tell them they 
can sign the summit register now…)

Hraban

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[NTG-context] Re: can we do binding correction?

[Andres Conrado Montoya]

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There is some mention of a mechanism to get binding correction from an old
article in the wiki about emulating the Koma TypeArea from LaTeX, you can
see it in https://wiki.contextgarden.net/KOMA-scrartcl_Type_Area

There is also some discussion about the subject in SE:
https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/38682/rules-of-thumb-for-size-of-binding-correction-bcor
However, that discussion is 12 years old and the links referenced as
sources are dead now.

I have found with experience that a formula to calculate the binding
correction for a saddle stitch binding, not more than 4 pages in a
signature (only one fold in the middle) usually is 1/2 the circumference of
a circle with radius *r*, being *r* the thickness of the paper times the
amount of physical signatures. Something like: \frac{π \times t \times
s}{2}. I have not tried a formula for more folds in a signature.

The thing is, you have to recalculate for each signature fold. The
innermost will have displacement zero, the second one a little bit more,
the third a little bit more, and on and on until we reach the outermost
signature.

However, it is necessary to say that unless you are using a
particularly thick paper, or you are using too many pages for a saddle
stitch bind (my personal and professional opinion would be no more than 80,
but better 60), the displacement is usually negligible.

For example, let's say the paper thickness is 0.1 mm (which is 0.0001
meters) and there are 40 pages in 10 signatures. The radius would be 0.0001
meters per signature * 10 signatures = 0.001 meters. Then, half the
circumference would be 1/2 * 3.14159 * 0.001 meters ≈  0.0016 meters or
1.6mm at the last signature. Unless there was a displacement of more than,
say, 4 mm, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

-- 
Andrés Conrado Montoya
Andi Kú
andresconrado@gmail.com
http://sesentaycuatro.com
http://messier87.com
http://chiquitico.org
----------------------------------------
Los fines no justifican los medios, porque la medida verdadera de nuestro
carácter está dada por los medios que estamos dispuestos a utilizar, no por
los fines que proclamamos.
----------------------------------------

“You develop an instant global consciousness, a people orientation, an
intense dissatisfaction with the state of the world, and a compulsion to do
something about it. From out there on the moon, international politics look
so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag
him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a
bitch.’” — Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell

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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: can we do binding correction?

[Hraban Ramm]

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Hi Andrés, thank you!

Am 20.03.24 um 06:07 schrieb Andres Conrado Montoya:
> I have found with experience that a formula to calculate the binding 
> correction for a saddle stitch binding, not more than 4 pages in a 
> signature (only one fold in the middle) usually is 1/2 the 
> circumference of a circle with radius /r/, being /r/ the thickness of 
> the paper times the amount of physical signatures. Something like: 
> \frac{π \times t \times s}{2}. I have not tried a formula for more 
> folds in a signature.
>
> The thing is, you have to recalculate for each signature fold. The 
> innermost will have displacement zero, the second one a little bit 
> more, the third a little bit more, and on and on until we reach the 
> outermost signature.
>
> However, it is necessary to say that unless you are using a 
> particularly thick paper, or you are using too many pages for a saddle 
> stitch bind (my personal and professional opinion would be no more 
> than 80, but better 60), the displacement is usually negligible.
>
> For example, let's say the paper thickness is 0.1 mm (which is 0.0001 
> meters) and there are 40 pages in 10 signatures. The radius would be 
> 0.0001 meters per signature * 10 signatures = 0.001 meters. Then, half 
> the circumference would be 1/2 * 3.14159 * 0.001 meters ≈  0.0016 
> meters or 1.6mm at the last signature. Unless there was a displacement 
> of more than, say, 4 mm, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
>
E.g. our Bonn architectural guides 
(https://www.dreiviertelhaus.de/reihen/afb/) are saddle-stitched 
booklets, usually have 60 pages and are printed on 115g coated paper. 
With coated paper you can’t really derivate the thickness from grammage. 
The horizontal page shift is visible if you look carefully. But since 
the paper is not very transparent, you only see the problem if you look 
for it. I don’t arrange the pages myself, don’t know the signature size, 
and I can’t request specials, since we must print cheaply to keep the 
low price (had to raise it from 5 to 8 € anyway, half of it goes to the 
wholesaler).

Hraban


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