Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output

Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output

[Albert Krewinkel via ntg-context]

Hi all,

I'm currently trying to improve the ConTeXt output generated by pandoc,
the document convert. There are two questions that we haven't decided
on, and I'd be grateful to receive some feedback from ConTeXt experts on
these issues:

1. As far as I understand, the `\section` syntax currently produced by
   pandoc should be considered mkii legacy syntax. We're likely going to
   switch to the modern `\startsection`/`\stopsection` syntax instead.
   Are there any concerns about retiring the old syntax?
   (Side note: pandoc already produces the new syntax, but only when
   called with `--section-divs`.)

2. Similarly, I'd like to start wrapping paragraphs with
   `\startparagraph`/`\stopparagraph`. It is important for me to get
   properly tagged PDF, but this would also make the output more
   verbose. Is that something that you would find bothering, or do you
   see adding the extra environment by default as an acceptable
   practice?

Of course, I'd also be happy to get other suggestions on how to improve
pandoc's ConTeXt support.

Thanks in advance,

Albert


-- 
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Re: Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output

[juh via ntg-context]

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Dear Albert,

great to hear that, as my cooperative uses pandoc to produce print stuff
with ConTeXt, we are always happy, when there are improvements.

Am Sun, Jun 05, 2022 at 09:07:37AM +0200 schrieb Albert Krewinkel via ntg-context:
> 2. Similarly, I'd like to start wrapping paragraphs with
>    `\startparagraph`/`\stopparagraph`. It is important for me to get
>    properly tagged PDF, but this would also make the output more
>    verbose. Is that something that you would find bothering, or do you
>    see adding the extra environment by default as an acceptable
>    practice?

A similiary question came up in the org-mode mailinglist some weeks ago.

(Background: Org-mode is a markup used with Emacs to make single source
publishing possible)

Someone who maintains an export programme for ConTeXt uses 
sectionlevels.

You get the incremental subsections and subsubsection like this.

\startsectionlevel
  \startsectionlevel
    \startsectionlevel
    \stopsectionlevel
  \stopsectionlevel
\stopsectionlevel

This makes it possible to ignore the part-chapter-section naming
convention and be more flexible. You can leave it to the style files to
decide which level is a part, chapter, section etc...

As I do not use this in production – only playing around with emacs and
org-mode – I cannot say if this is a good way.

Have you considered sectionlevel?
What is your opinion?

juh

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Re: Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output

[Denis Maier via ntg-context]

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: ntg-context <ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl> Im Auftrag von juh via ntg-
> context
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 5. Juni 2022 10:20
> An: ntg-context@ntg.nl
> Cc: juh <juh+ntg-context@mailbox.org>
> Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output
> 
> Dear Albert,
> 
> great to hear that, as my cooperative uses pandoc to produce print stuff with
> ConTeXt, we are always happy, when there are improvements.
> 
> Am Sun, Jun 05, 2022 at 09:07:37AM +0200 schrieb Albert Krewinkel via ntg-
> context:
> > 2. Similarly, I'd like to start wrapping paragraphs with
> >    `\startparagraph`/`\stopparagraph`. It is important for me to get
> >    properly tagged PDF, but this would also make the output more
> >    verbose. Is that something that you would find bothering, or do you
> >    see adding the extra environment by default as an acceptable
> >    practice?
> 
> A similiary question came up in the org-mode mailinglist some weeks ago.
> 
> (Background: Org-mode is a markup used with Emacs to make single source
> publishing possible)
> 
> Someone who maintains an export programme for ConTeXt uses
> sectionlevels.
> 
> You get the incremental subsections and subsubsection like this.
> 
> \startsectionlevel
>   \startsectionlevel
>     \startsectionlevel
>     \stopsectionlevel
>   \stopsectionlevel
> \stopsectionlevel
> 
> This makes it possible to ignore the part-chapter-section naming convention
> and be more flexible. You can leave it to the style files to decide which level
> is a part, chapter, section etc...
> 
> As I do not use this in production – only playing around with emacs and org-
> mode – I cannot say if this is a good way.
> 
> Have you considered sectionlevel?
> What is your opinion?

Yes, I've also suggested that: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/5539

Denis
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Re: Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output

[Denis Maier via ntg-context]

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: ntg-context <ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl> Im Auftrag von Albert
> Krewinkel via ntg-context
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 5. Juni 2022 09:08
> An: ntg-context@ntg.nl
> Cc: Albert Krewinkel <albert+context@zeitkraut.de>
> Betreff: [NTG-context] Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm currently trying to improve the ConTeXt output generated by pandoc, the
> document convert. There are two questions that we haven't decided on, and
> I'd be grateful to receive some feedback from ConTeXt experts on these
> issues:
> 
[...]
> 
> 2. Similarly, I'd like to start wrapping paragraphs with
>    `\startparagraph`/`\stopparagraph`. It is important for me to get
>    properly tagged PDF, but this would also make the output more
>    verbose. Is that something that you would find bothering, or do you
>    see adding the extra environment by default as an acceptable
>    practice?

My initial impulse was that this would be good when going directly to PDF, but that it may be disturbing (too verbose) when you intend to edit the context output.
See also: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/pull/7885

Denis
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Re: Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 6/5/2022 9:07 AM, Albert Krewinkel via ntg-context wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm currently trying to improve the ConTeXt output generated by pandoc,
> the document convert. There are two questions that we haven't decided
> on, and I'd be grateful to receive some feedback from ConTeXt experts on
> these issues:
> 
> 1. As far as I understand, the `\section` syntax currently produced by
>     pandoc should be considered mkii legacy syntax. We're likely going to
>     switch to the modern `\startsection`/`\stopsection` syntax instead.
>     Are there any concerns about retiring the old syntax?
>     (Side note: pandoc already produces the new syntax, but only when
>     called with `--section-divs`.)

We keep compatibility as much as possible although there are of course 
exceptions (like: we don't need font encodings in mkiv and we hav 
eopentype fonts there). So it si quit elikely that these commands will 
stay forever.

> 2. Similarly, I'd like to start wrapping paragraphs with
>     `\startparagraph`/`\stopparagraph`. It is important for me to get
>     properly tagged PDF, but this would also make the output more
>     verbose. Is that something that you would find bothering, or do you
>     see adding the extra environment by default as an acceptable
>     practice?

I assume not that many users see (or manipulate) the output so it is 
harmless.

> Of course, I'd also be happy to get other suggestions on how to improve
> pandoc's ConTeXt support.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Albert
> 
> 


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Re: Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output

[Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context]

Hans Hagen via ntg-context schrieb am 05.06.2022 um 12:01:
> On 6/5/2022 9:07 AM, Albert Krewinkel via ntg-context wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm currently trying to improve the ConTeXt output generated by pandoc,
>> the document convert. There are two questions that we haven't decided
>> on, and I'd be grateful to receive some feedback from ConTeXt experts on
>> these issues:
>>
>> 2. Similarly, I'd like to start wrapping paragraphs with
>>     `\startparagraph`/`\stopparagraph`. It is important for me to get
>>     properly tagged PDF, but this would also make the output more
>>     verbose. Is that something that you would find bothering, or do you
>>     see adding the extra environment by default as an acceptable
>>     practice?
>
> I assume not that many users see (or manipulate) the output so it is 
> harmless.

\startparagraph can lead to unwanted side effects (I can't remember the 
details)
and \bpar ... \epar is the safer alternative to add tags.

Wolfgang

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Re: Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output

[Albert Krewinkel via ntg-context]

Dear juh,

juh via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> writes:

> great to hear that, as my cooperative uses pandoc to produce print stuff
> with ConTeXt, we are always happy, when there are improvements.

I'd love to learn more about your workflow, if you have time to share at
some point!

We chose ConTeXt as the intermediate format for the next iteration of
the JOSS pipeline (the current pipeline is described here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK579698/)

Big thanks to Denis Maier for convincing me to try and go that route :)

> Am Sun, Jun 05, 2022 at 09:07:37AM +0200 schrieb Albert Krewinkel via ntg-context:
>> 2. Similarly, I'd like to start wrapping paragraphs with
>>    `\startparagraph`/`\stopparagraph`. It is important for me to get
>>    properly tagged PDF, but this would also make the output more
>>    verbose. Is that something that you would find bothering, or do you
>>    see adding the extra environment by default as an acceptable
>>    practice?
>
> A similiary question came up in the org-mode mailinglist some weeks ago.
>
> (Background: Org-mode is a markup used with Emacs to make single source
> publishing possible)
>
> Someone who maintains an export programme for ConTeXt uses 
> sectionlevels.
>
> You get the incremental subsections and subsubsection like this.
>
> \startsectionlevel
>   \startsectionlevel
>     \startsectionlevel
>     \stopsectionlevel
>   \stopsectionlevel
> \stopsectionlevel
>
> This makes it possible to ignore the part-chapter-section naming
> convention and be more flexible. You can leave it to the style files to
> decide which level is a part, chapter, section etc...
>
> As I do not use this in production – only playing around with emacs and
> org-mode – I cannot say if this is a good way.
>
> Have you considered sectionlevel?
> What is your opinion?

I absolutely see the appeal of that method, and I'd like for pandoc to
support it. The main question is probably whether the default should be
`\startsection` or `\startsectionlevel`. I lean towards making
`\startsectionlevel` the new default, but that might need some more
discussing. I think Denis linked to the respective GitHub issue in his
mail, more comments and opinions are definitely welcome.

-- 
Albert Krewinkel
GPG: 8eed e3e2 e8c5 6f18 81fe  e836 388d c0b2 1f63 1124
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Re: Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output

[Albert Krewinkel via ntg-context]

Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> writes:

> Hans Hagen via ntg-context schrieb am 05.06.2022 um 12:01:
>> On 6/5/2022 9:07 AM, Albert Krewinkel via ntg-context wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'm currently trying to improve the ConTeXt output generated by pandoc,
>>> the document convert. There are two questions that we haven't decided
>>> on, and I'd be grateful to receive some feedback from ConTeXt experts on
>>> these issues:
>>>
>>> 2. Similarly, I'd like to start wrapping paragraphs with
>>>     `\startparagraph`/`\stopparagraph`. It is important for me to get
>>>     properly tagged PDF, but this would also make the output more
>>>     verbose. Is that something that you would find bothering, or do you
>>>     see adding the extra environment by default as an acceptable
>>>     practice?
>>
>> I assume not that many users see (or manipulate) the output so it is harmless.
>
> \startparagraph can lead to unwanted side effects (I can't remember the details)
> and \bpar ... \epar is the safer alternative to add tags.

Thank you Wolfgang, I wasn't aware! Searching the wiki brought me to
<https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Epub_Sample>. It states:

> In places where \startparagraph does not work, such as itemizations,
> where it causes a blank line after the bullet and before the item
> text, use \bpar (and closing \epar) to tag paragraphs.

It's probably more consistent then to use \bpar ... \epar everywhere.


-- 
Albert Krewinkel
GPG: 8eed e3e2 e8c5 6f18 81fe  e836 388d c0b2 1f63 1124
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Re: Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output

[juh+ntg-context--- via ntg-context]

Dear Albert!

Am 05.06.22 um 16:15 schrieb Albert Krewinkel via ntg-context:
> Dear juh,
> 
> juh via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> writes:
> 
>> great to hear that, as my cooperative uses pandoc to produce print stuff
>> with ConTeXt, we are always happy, when there are improvements.
> 
> I'd love to learn more about your workflow, if you have time to share at
> some point!
> 

I would like to blog about it, but we are still tweaking the process.

In short.

Our authors use Markdown:

- to produce websites via Hugo
- to produce print stuff via pandoc-context

Our main concern was the question: How to roll out the context system to 
all contributors?

We maintain our system in a repo with a bootstrap script.

The bootstrap script determines the architecture of the computer, 
installs lmtx in the right architecture (linux,mac,windows) and 
generates a post-merge script for git that calls "context --generate" 
after every update of the repo.

The repo contains context stuff and pandoc stuff in two directories.
In ../context-project we have our style files and global images such as 
logos, icons etc.

In the pandoc directory we store our pandoc templates, filters, 
csl-styles and global bibliografies.

Last but not least the repo contains a build script that essentially 
calls pandoc and context on the given markdown file.

For each print project we have a different repository, eg. for reports, 
brochures, slides or offers.

We make use of the yaml preface in the markdown files especially for 
offers. The sales consultant only has to fill out the yaml part and 
build the file. The result is nice looking and standardized so that 
everyone in the coop could write an offer.

One dependency is that everyone must install the newest pandooc and 
Inkscape to convert SVGs to PDF. With the MP-way of doing this we had 
some problems. We need the SVG conversion for our documentation. It is 
special as we would like to build the html version also with pandoc from 
one single markdown source. In theory this is possible but there are yet 
some smaller problems to solve.

I am happy to answer questions for details.

juh
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Re: Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output

[Thangalin via ntg-context]

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Hi folks,

I would like to blog about it, but we are still tweaking the process.
>

I put together a multipart series about the process of going from Markdown
to Pandoc to ConTeXt:

https://dave.autonoma.ca/blog/2019/05/22/typesetting-markdown-part-1/

To speed up the "write > typeset > review" process, I developed KeenWrite:

https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite

Behind the scenes, KeenWrite uses a Java library similar to pandoc with
some additions, such as the ability to use pandoc's annotation syntax.

The biggest issue for rolling this out is providing users a way to easily
install ConTeXt in a cross-platform manner. At the moment, trying to export
from KeenWrite without a local ConTeXt install simply directs the user to
download and install the most appropriate version for their system.

We make use of the yaml preface in the markdown files especially for
> offers. The sales consultant only has to fill out the yaml part and
>

KeenWrite goes a bit beyond this to completely separate YAML variables from
the Markdown files. The text editor also provides a hierarchical editor for
YAML trees along with the ability to reference those YAML variables when
building. This can be accomplished from the user preferences or the
command-line:

https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite/blob/master/docs/cmd.md

What's more is that the variables can be inserted into documents, isolating
duplicated information to a single location: the externalized YAML data.
Great for templating.

One of the reasons I wrote KeenWrite was so that I could simplify the use
of variables within documents. In the Typesetting Markdown series, the
build script essentially performs:

   1. pandoc document-vars.md + vars.yaml > document-final.md
   2. pandoc document-final.md > document.tex
   3. context document.tex > document.pdf

Using KeenWrite, this process becomes:

keenwrite --input document-vars.md --theme=boschet --variables vars.yaml
--output document.pdf

This ends up converting an annotated Markdown file into XML then uses
ConTeXt to typeset the XML using a particular theme.KeenWrite has a number
of themes, some basic, some advanced:

https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite-themes/

This allows me to eliminate the dependency on both Pandoc and Inkscape.
I've also encountered some problems with SVG to MP, but Hans is usually
quick to fix the bugs given a minimal working example that pinpoints the
problem. Either way, it's possible to retain the Inkscape step by telling
ConTeXt not to use the MP conversion, as you alluded to, Juh.

There are other handy features built into KeenWrite. For example, it's
possible to separate chapters into individual files. As long as they are
named something natural (ch1.md, ch2.md, a_chap.md, b_chap.md), they'll get
collated in the correct order. From there, Control+P will export to PDF for
the current file and Control+Shift+P will combine all chapters into a
single PDF.

Then there's the F12 button that captures errors and output from ConTeXt.

If you check it out, let me know what you think!

Cheers!

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Problem with SVG an conversion mp (was: Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output)

[Jan U. Hasecke via ntg-context]

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Am Sun, Jun 05, 2022 at 04:52:52PM -0700 schrieb Thangalin:
> This allows me to eliminate the dependency on both Pandoc and Inkscape.
> I've also encountered some problems with SVG to MP, but Hans is usually
> quick to fix the bugs given a minimal working example that pinpoints the
> problem. Either way, it's possible to retain the Inkscape step by telling
> ConTeXt not to use the MP conversion, as you alluded to, Juh.

So true. So here is a mwe, which works with inkscape and not with mp.

As some svg works with mp, I guess that mp cannot handle all svg
dialects. But this is only a guess.

juh


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Satiren & Essays: ......... http://www.sudelbuch.de
Privater Blog: ............ http://www.hasecke.eu
Netzliteratur-Projekt: .... http://www.generationenprojekt.de



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\starttext
%\externalfigure[figure][width=10cm,conversion=mp]
\externalfigure[figure][width=10cm,conversion=mp]
\stoptext

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Re: Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output

[juh+ntg-context--- via ntg-context]

Am 06.06.22 um 01:52 schrieb Thangalin:

> I put together a multipart series about the process of going from 
> Markdown to Pandoc to ConTeXt:
> 
> https://dave.autonoma.ca/blog/2019/05/22/typesetting-markdown-part-1/ 
> <https://dave.autonoma.ca/blog/2019/05/22/typesetting-markdown-part-1/>

This was one source of inspiration to me.

juh
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Re: Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 05.06.22 um 16:30 schrieb Albert Krewinkel via ntg-context:
>>>> 2. Similarly, I'd like to start wrapping paragraphs with
>>>>      `\startparagraph`/`\stopparagraph`. It is important for me to get
>>>>      properly tagged PDF, 

>> \startparagraph can lead to unwanted side effects (I can't remember the details)
>> and \bpar ... \epar is the safer alternative to add tags.
> 
> Thank you Wolfgang, I wasn't aware! Searching the wiki brought me to
> <https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Epub_Sample>. It states:
> 
>> In places where \startparagraph does not work, such as itemizations,
>> where it causes a blank line after the bullet and before the item
>> text, use \bpar (and closing \epar) to tag paragraphs.
> 
> It's probably more consistent then to use \bpar ... \epar everywhere.

If I understood Hans right, \start/stopparagraph is not necessary any 
more to get properly tagged XML. I didn’t check it yet myself – my 
DOCX-to-ConTeXt converter still produces this markup.

One case where it’s probably in the way is if you need settings like 
\looseness – before \startparagraph is too early, and after it is too 
late (in LMTX), you need \updateparagraphproperties in such cases, but 
you can possible avoid that without \startparagraph – need to check...

Hraban
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Re: Improving pandoc's ConTeXt output

[Albert Krewinkel via ntg-context]

Albert Krewinkel via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> writes:

> I'm currently trying to improve the ConTeXt output generated by pandoc,
> the document convert. There are two questions that we haven't decided
> on, and I'd be grateful to receive some feedback from ConTeXt experts on
> these issues:
>
> 1. As far as I understand, the `\section` syntax currently produced by
>    pandoc should be considered mkii legacy syntax. We're likely going to
>    switch to the modern `\startsection`/`\stopsection` syntax instead.
>    Are there any concerns about retiring the old syntax?
>    (Side note: pandoc already produces the new syntax, but only when
>    called with `--section-divs`.)
>
> 2. Similarly, I'd like to start wrapping paragraphs with
>    `\startparagraph`/`\stopparagraph`. It is important for me to get
>    properly tagged PDF, but this would also make the output more
>    verbose. Is that something that you would find bothering, or do you
>    see adding the extra environment by default as an acceptable
>    practice?
>
> Of course, I'd also be happy to get other suggestions on how to improve
> pandoc's ConTeXt support.

A big "thank you" for everyone's feedback! We've implemented the first
point as suggested, with the second still in discussion. The next pandoc
version will also feature better table support for ConTeXt.

Thanks again, ConTeXt is a wonderful tool!

Best,
Albert



PS: For completeness, this is the pull requests for better table
    support: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/pull/8116

-- 
Albert Krewinkel
GPG: 8eed e3e2 e8c5 6f18 81fe  e836 388d c0b2 1f63 1124
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