[TUHS] How good a representative of System V is Solaris

[TUHS] How good a representative of System V is Solaris

[A P Garcia]

> post-V7 AT&T
> Unices have always been unavailable, at least at any price that I can
> afford on my college student budget. Solaris, however, at least
> started out as an implementation of SVR4 and is freely available. How
> much of System V still lurks inside Solaris 10 (the last version to
> include such traditional workstation elements as CDE and DPS in the X
> server) and how much has been removed in favor of a more GNU-ish
> userland experience? Is Solaris a good way to get a System V
> experience without breaking either the bank or copyright law, or is
> this a hopeless situation?

I purchased a Solaris 8 source media kit from Sun for around $100 back
when they offered it. A lot of files still have headers saying
Proprietary Unpublished AT&T source code or some such. I don't know
how different it is from System V, because I've never been able to
procure a copy of that source. It sure looks like the Solaris 8
userland, at least, is almost pure System V.

[TUHS] How good a representative of System V is Solaris

[Tim Bradshaw]

On 29 May 2009, at 13:12, A P Garcia wrote:

> It sure looks like the Solaris 8
> userland, at least, is almost pure System V.

I don't think that follows from the copyright headers.  Those can't be  
removed unless there is (essentially) *nothing* remaining of the  
original.

Alternatively, you could say that, yes, it's a System V, but it's a  
late 90s System V (and Solaris 10 is a 2005 System V).  So it depends  
on what you are after I guess: if you want to know what System V was  
like in 1980-something then Solaris won't tell you that, any more than  
OS X will tell you what 4.2 BSD was like.  If you want to know what a  
*modern* System V or BSD is like then, sure, look at Solaris or OS X.

--tim

[TUHS] How good a representative of System V is Solaris

[Brantley Coile]

Solaris is not pure System V.  I started working on the internals of  
System V in 1985 and I have purchased a number of Solaris boxes in the  
1990's and 2000's and while Solaris is based on the System V kernel,  
it doesn't feel like System V.

Brantley

On May 29, 2009, at 9:08 AM, Tim Bradshaw wrote:

> On 29 May 2009, at 13:12, A P Garcia wrote:
>
>> It sure looks like the Solaris 8
>> userland, at least, is almost pure System V.
>
> I don't think that follows from the copyright headers.  Those can't be
> removed unless there is (essentially) *nothing* remaining of the
> original.
>
> Alternatively, you could say that, yes, it's a System V, but it's a
> late 90s System V (and Solaris 10 is a 2005 System V).  So it depends
> on what you are after I guess: if you want to know what System V was
> like in 1980-something then Solaris won't tell you that, any more than
> OS X will tell you what 4.2 BSD was like.  If you want to know what a
> *modern* System V or BSD is like then, sure, look at Solaris or OS X.
>
> --tim
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>

[TUHS] How good a representative of System V is Solaris

[Michael Kerpan]

So far, it seems that the consensus is that Solaris isn't a good
representative of System V... With that said, the second part of my
question still remains: is there a way to pay with a classic System V
environment that is both free/cheap AND legal or am I SOL?

Mike

[TUHS] How good a representative of System V is Solaris

[Jason Stevens]

I'm trying to get something out of Novell on this... so far they keep
on wanting to sell me Linux they seem perplexed about their ownership
of any UNIX ip, even when I point them to their own pages proclaiming
such.......

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Michael Kerpan <mjkerpan at kerpan.com> wrote:
> So far, it seems that the consensus is that Solaris isn't a good
> representative of System V... With that said, the second part of my
> question still remains: is there a way to pay with a classic System V
> environment that is both free/cheap AND legal or am I SOL?
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>

[TUHS] How good a representative of System V is Solaris

[Jason Stevens]

I don't think there ever was "free" unix, but there was Unixware/OpenServer...

Sadly you've missed it by 13 years...

ftp://ftp.uni-duisburg.de/SCO/docs/Free-OpenServer.pdf

I'd say troll craigslist New York & ebay... it turns up from time to
time in the neighbourhood of $25-150 or so...  I think I paid $100 for
my 7.0.1 ...

It seems that anyone who sold SYSV, except for SUN(Oracle) IBM is
basically out of the market, even if they are still in business..

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Michael Kerpan <mjkerpan at kerpan.com> wrote:
> So far, it seems that the consensus is that Solaris isn't a good
> representative of System V... With that said, the second part of my
> question still remains: is there a way to pay with a classic System V
> environment that is both free/cheap AND legal or am I SOL?
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>

[TUHS] Modern BSD system? (was: How good a representative of System V is Solaris)

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

On Friday, 29 May 2009 at 14:08:19 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> If you want to know what a *modern* System V or BSD is like then,
> sure, look at Solaris or OS X.

I won't argue the Solaris comparison, though I'm sure people could,
but certainly Mac OS X is not a good example of modern BSD.  The
kernel has very little BSD in it.  Look at FreeBSD, NetBSD or OpenBSD
for that.

Greg
--
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[TUHS] How good a representative of System V is Solaris

[Wesley Parish]

FWIW, I did ask Novell a year or so ago about releasing OSF/1 from the SysVRx 
license requirement; I sent them a reminder, together with the request that 
they consider giving TUHS an SysVRx source/binary license.

So far they haven't responded.  Maybe I should get onto the local branch and 
ask them to take it up with headquarters ... :)

Wesley Parish

On Saturday 30 May 2009 13:51, Jason Stevens wrote:
> I'm trying to get something out of Novell on this... so far they keep
> on wanting to sell me Linux they seem perplexed about their ownership
> of any UNIX ip, even when I point them to their own pages proclaiming
> such.......
>
> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Michael Kerpan <mjkerpan at kerpan.com> wrote:
> > So far, it seems that the consensus is that Solaris isn't a good
> > representative of System V... With that said, the second part of my
> > question still remains: is there a way to pay with a classic System V
> > environment that is both free/cheap AND legal or am I SOL?
> >
> > Mike
> > _______________________________________________
> > TUHS mailing list
> > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

-- 
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-----
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-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
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I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.

[TUHS] Modern BSD system? (was: How good a representative of System V is Solaris)

[Tim Bradshaw]

On 30 May 2009, at 06:01, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>
> I won't argue the Solaris comparison, though I'm sure people could,
> but certainly Mac OS X is not a good example of modern BSD.  The
> kernel has very little BSD in it.  Look at FreeBSD, NetBSD or OpenBSD
> for that.

I was really thinking in terms of userland (I don't spend much time  
poking around at kernels...).  You could still argue that OS X is not  
a good example of a modern BSD userland of course - I don't spend  
enough time with *BSD to really know what they are like, other than  
that, for the most part, everything has been replaced by GNU versions  
of itself in all of these systems :-).  i guess OS X is kind of like  
what I would have hoped a BSD might turn into in some sense.

--tim

[TUHS] Modern BSD system?

[M. Warner Losh]

In message: <20090530050137.GE58587 at dereel.lemis.com>
            "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com> writes:
: On Friday, 29 May 2009 at 14:08:19 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
: > If you want to know what a *modern* System V or BSD is like then,
: > sure, look at Solaris or OS X.
: 
: I won't argue the Solaris comparison, though I'm sure people could,
: but certainly Mac OS X is not a good example of modern BSD.  The
: kernel has very little BSD in it.  Look at FreeBSD, NetBSD or OpenBSD
: for that.

There's more BSD in the Mac OS X kernel than you might think, at least
judging from the stream of patches that come back into FreeBSD.  They
use BSD networking, and FreeBSD's 802.11 stack, for example.  Some of
the file system code is also from BSD.  Darwin is a classic example of
what one can do when one doesn't care where one gets one's code from.
This has both pluses and minuses...

Warner