[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Cory Smelosky]

On Tue, 28 Mar 2017, Warren Toomey wrote:

> All, today after some heroic efforts by numerous people over many years,
> Nokia-Alcatel has issued this statement at
> https://media-bell-labs-com.s3.amazonaws.com/pages/20170327_1602/statement%20regarding%20Unix%203-7-17.pdf
>
> Statement Regarding Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10
> Alcatel-Lucent USA Inc. (?ALU-USA?), on behalf of itself and Nokia
> Bell Laboratories agrees, to the extent of its ability to do so, that it
> will not assert its copyright rights with respect to any non-commercial
> copying, distribution, performance, display or creation of derivative
> works of Research Unix?1 Editions 8, 9, and 10. The foregoing does not
> (i) transfer ownership of, or relinquish any, intellectual property rights
> (including patent rights) of Nokia Corporation, ALU-USA or any of their
> affiliates, (ii) grant a license to any patent, patent application,
> or trademark of Nokia Corporation, ALU-USA. or any of their affiliates,
> (iii) grant any third-party rights or licenses, or (iv) grant any rights
> for commercial purposes. Neither ALU-USA. nor Nokia Bell Laboratories will
> furnish or provided support for Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10, and
> make no warranties or representations hereunder, including but not limited
> to any warranty or representation that Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and
> 10 does not infringe any third party intellectual property rights or that
> Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10 is fit for any particular purpose.
>
> There are some issues around the copyright of third party material in
> 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix, but I'm going to bite the bullet and
> make them available in the Unix Archive. I'll post details later today.
>
> Cheers, Warren
>

Looks like v9 runs on Sun-3/50.

Now to hope my Sun-3 is a 3/50 and well...find it. ;)

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Warren Toomey]

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All, today after some heroic efforts by numerous people over many years,
Nokia-Alcatel has issued this statement at
https://media-bell-labs-com.s3.amazonaws.com/pages/20170327_1602/statement%20regarding%20Unix%203-7-17.pdf

Statement Regarding Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10
Alcatel-Lucent USA Inc. (“ALU-USA”), on behalf of itself and Nokia
Bell Laboratories agrees, to the extent of its ability to do so, that it
will not assert its copyright rights with respect to any non-commercial
copying, distribution, performance, display or creation of derivative
works of Research Unix®1 Editions 8, 9, and 10. The foregoing does not
(i) transfer ownership of, or relinquish any, intellectual property rights
(including patent rights) of Nokia Corporation, ALU-USA or any of their
affiliates, (ii) grant a license to any patent, patent application,
or trademark of Nokia Corporation, ALU-USA. or any of their affiliates,
(iii) grant any third-party rights or licenses, or (iv) grant any rights
for commercial purposes. Neither ALU-USA. nor Nokia Bell Laboratories will
furnish or provided support for Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10, and
make no warranties or representations hereunder, including but not limited
to any warranty or representation that Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and
10 does not infringe any third party intellectual property rights or that
Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10 is fit for any particular purpose.

There are some issues around the copyright of third party material in
8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix, but I'm going to bite the bullet and
make them available in the Unix Archive. I'll post details later today.

Cheers, Warren
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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Clem Cole]

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Wonderful news... Thank you extended to all involved.

Clem

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 4:24 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> All, today after some heroic efforts by numerous people over many years,
> Nokia-Alcatel has issued this statement at
> https://media-bell-labs-com.s3.amazonaws.com/pages/
> 20170327_1602/statement%20regarding%20Unix%203-7-17.pdf
>
> Statement Regarding Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10
> Alcatel-Lucent USA Inc. (“ALU-USA”), on behalf of itself and Nokia
> Bell Laboratories agrees, to the extent of its ability to do so, that it
> will not assert its copyright rights with respect to any non-commercial
> copying, distribution, performance, display or creation of derivative
> works of Research Unix®1 Editions 8, 9, and 10. The foregoing does not
> (i) transfer ownership of, or relinquish any, intellectual property rights
> (including patent rights) of Nokia Corporation, ALU-USA or any of their
> affiliates, (ii) grant a license to any patent, patent application,
> or trademark of Nokia Corporation, ALU-USA. or any of their affiliates,
> (iii) grant any third-party rights or licenses, or (iv) grant any rights
> for commercial purposes. Neither ALU-USA. nor Nokia Bell Laboratories will
> furnish or provided support for Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10, and
> make no warranties or representations hereunder, including but not limited
> to any warranty or representation that Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and
> 10 does not infringe any third party intellectual property rights or that
> Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10 is fit for any particular purpose.
>
> There are some issues around the copyright of third party material in
> 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix, but I'm going to bite the bullet and
> make them available in the Unix Archive. I'll post details later today.
>
> Cheers, Warren
>
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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Warren Toomey]

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 06:24:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> There are some issues around the copyright of third party material in
> 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix, but I'm going to bite the bullet and
> make them available in the Unix Archive. I'll post details later today.

They are now in four subdirectories at
http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/

Here is an (incomplete, I'm sure) list of people who have been involved
with the lobbying for the release of these editions of Unix:

Dennis Ritchie
Ken Thompson
Doug McIlroy
Brian Kernighan
Rob Pike
Russ Cox
Norman Wilson
Peter Salus
Martin Carroll

Martin in particular, through his persistance, finally got the legal
bods at Alcatel-Lucent to agree to not assert their copyright rights.

Cheers, Warren

P.S All I did was nag people and set up a mailing list for them :)
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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Warner Losh]

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On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 2:24 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> All, today after some heroic efforts by numerous people over many years,
> Nokia-Alcatel has issued this statement at
> https://media-bell-labs-com.s3.amazonaws.com/pages/20170327_1602/statement%20regarding%20Unix%203-7-17.pdf
>
> Statement Regarding Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10
> Alcatel-Lucent USA Inc. (“ALU-USA”), on behalf of itself and Nokia
> Bell Laboratories agrees, to the extent of its ability to do so, that it
> will not assert its copyright rights with respect to any non-commercial
> copying, distribution, performance, display or creation of derivative
> works of Research Unix®1 Editions 8, 9, and 10. The foregoing does not
> (i) transfer ownership of, or relinquish any, intellectual property rights
> (including patent rights) of Nokia Corporation, ALU-USA or any of their
> affiliates, (ii) grant a license to any patent, patent application,
> or trademark of Nokia Corporation, ALU-USA. or any of their affiliates,
> (iii) grant any third-party rights or licenses, or (iv) grant any rights
> for commercial purposes. Neither ALU-USA. nor Nokia Bell Laboratories will
> furnish or provided support for Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10, and
> make no warranties or representations hereunder, including but not limited
> to any warranty or representation that Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and
> 10 does not infringe any third party intellectual property rights or that
> Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10 is fit for any particular purpose.
>
> There are some issues around the copyright of third party material in
> 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix, but I'm going to bite the bullet and
> make them available in the Unix Archive. I'll post details later today.

Excellent news. While short of fully open-sourcing (since some open
source code winds up in commercial applications), it will be available
for reference at least.

Warner

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Warner Losh]

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 2:24 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> There are some issues around the copyright of third party material in
> 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix, but I'm going to bite the bullet and
> make them available in the Unix Archive. I'll post details later today.

Can you characterize what the 3rd-party material might be?

Warner

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Nemo]

On 27 March 2017 at 16:24, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> All, today after some heroic efforts by numerous people over many years,
> Nokia-Alcatel has issued this statement at
> https://media-bell-labs-com.s3.amazonaws.com/pages/20170327_1602/statement%20regarding%20Unix%203-7-17.pdf

Could you please place a ocpy of this wonderful statement in the
archives (for local future reference)?

N.

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Warren Toomey]

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 03:11:54PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > There are some issues around the copyright of third party material in
> > 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix, but I'm going to bite the bullet and
> > make them available in the Unix Archive. I'll post details later today.
> 
> Can you characterize what the 3rd-party material might be?

Me personally, no. But there are others on the list who can help do this.
Hopefully they will chime in!
	Warren
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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 06:43:54AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> 
> Dennis Ritchie
> Ken Thompson
> Doug McIlroy
> Brian Kernighan
> Rob Pike
> Russ Cox
> Norman Wilson
> Peter Salus
> Martin Carroll

Thank you all for doing this.

khm

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Grant Taylor]

On 03/27/2017 03:45 PM, Nemo wrote:
> Could you please place a ocpy of this wonderful statement in the
> archives (for local future reference)?

I think it would be neat to leverage Apache's mod_autoindex HeaderName 
directive to include the text in the top header of the 
/Archive/Distributions/Research page.

I.e. copy the contents of the PDF into a text (or HTML) file and have it 
above the directory listing.

You can do similar with the ReadmeName for the footer below the 
directory listing.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Larry McVoy]

> Looks like v9 runs on Sun-3/50.
> 
> Now to hope my Sun-3 is a 3/50 and well...find it. ;)

Heh.  I went to ebay to see if you could still find 'em, no such luck.

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Cory Smelosky]

I know what I have is a 3-slot Sun-3...so let's hope it's enough ;)

Also it seems there aren't actually any binaries there...this will be fun ;)

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 27, 2017, at 19:13, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

>> Looks like v9 runs on Sun-3/50.
>> 
>> Now to hope my Sun-3 is a 3/50 and well...find it. ;)
> 
> Heh.  I went to ebay to see if you could still find 'em, no such luck.

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Cory Smelosky]

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also - thank you for all of this, everyone!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 27, 2017, at 13:24, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> All, today after some heroic efforts by numerous people over many years,
> Nokia-Alcatel has issued this statement at
> https://media-bell-labs-com.s3.amazonaws.com/pages/20170327_1602/statement%20regarding%20Unix%203-7-17.pdf
> 
> Statement Regarding Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10
> Alcatel-Lucent USA Inc. (“ALU-USA”), on behalf of itself and Nokia
> Bell Laboratories agrees, to the extent of its ability to do so, that it
> will not assert its copyright rights with respect to any non-commercial
> copying, distribution, performance, display or creation of derivative
> works of Research Unix®1 Editions 8, 9, and 10. The foregoing does not
> (i) transfer ownership of, or relinquish any, intellectual property rights
> (including patent rights) of Nokia Corporation, ALU-USA or any of their
> affiliates, (ii) grant a license to any patent, patent application,
> or trademark of Nokia Corporation, ALU-USA. or any of their affiliates,
> (iii) grant any third-party rights or licenses, or (iv) grant any rights
> for commercial purposes. Neither ALU-USA. nor Nokia Bell Laboratories will
> furnish or provided support for Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10, and
> make no warranties or representations hereunder, including but not limited
> to any warranty or representation that Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and
> 10 does not infringe any third party intellectual property rights or that
> Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10 is fit for any particular purpose.
> 
> There are some issues around the copyright of third party material in
> 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix, but I'm going to bite the bullet and
> make them available in the Unix Archive. I'll post details later today.
> 
> Cheers, Warren

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[arnold]

Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> P.S All I did was nag people and set up a mailing list for them :)

Well, I'll take credit for pushing Norman yet again. :-)

A huge T H A N K  Y O U to everyone who helped with this. This is
absolutely amazing and wonderful.

Arnold

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[arnold]

arnold at skeeve.com wrote:

> Well, I'll take credit for pushing Norman yet again. :-)

ARGGH.  That should have been

	Well, I'll take credit for pushing Warren ...
					   ^^^^^^

Sorry.

Arnold

P.S. Write on the blackboard 100 times: I will not post before coffee,
I will not post before coffee ... :-)

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[SPC]

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> A huge T H A N K  Y O U to everyone who helped with this. This is
> absolutely amazing and wonderful.
>
> Arnold

Awesome. I share Arnold's words of thanks.


Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Grüße | Salutations
-- 
Sergio Pedraja
-----
No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que está viéndolo todo

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Hellwig Geisse]

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On Di, 2017-03-28 at 06:43 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
  
> They are now in four subdirectories at
> http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/
> 
 
Fantastic. A big "thank you" to all.

Hellwig

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[David du Colombier]

Fantastic news. Thank to everyone involved!

-- 
David du Colombier

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Jason Stevens]

There is an emulator.. I was actually playing with it earlier this week trying to get SunOS 2 to boot, on a SUN-2 ..  

Anyway it's called TME

http://people.csail.mit.edu/fredette/tme/

And updates here:

http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Retro.Sun2

I think my machine may be too fast.  It's very touchy to build and I think the slj threadding is really interesting but may also introduce complications...

On March 28, 2017 10:13:42 AM GMT+08:00, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>> Looks like v9 runs on Sun-3/50.
>> 
>> Now to hope my Sun-3 is a 3/50 and well...find it. ;)
>
>Heh.  I went to ebay to see if you could still find 'em, no such luck.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Jason Stevens]

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This is fantastic!!!  Thanks for this hard work, now we can finally see some of the "hidden" UNIX!

On March 28, 2017 4:24:58 AM GMT+08:00, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>All, today after some heroic efforts by numerous people over many
>years,
>Nokia-Alcatel has issued this statement at
>https://media-bell-labs-com.s3.amazonaws.com/pages/20170327_1602/stateme
>nt%20regarding%20Unix%203-7-17.pdf
>
>Statement Regarding Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10
>Alcatel-Lucent USA Inc. (“ALU-USA”), on behalf of itself and Nokia
>Bell Laboratories agrees, to the extent of its ability to do so, that
>it
>will not assert its copyright rights with respect to any non-commercial
>copying, distribution, performance, display or creation of derivative
>works of Research Unix®1 Editions 8, 9, and 10. The foregoing does not
>(i) transfer ownership of, or relinquish any, intellectual property
>rights
>(including patent rights) of Nokia Corporation, ALU-USA or any of their
>affiliates, (ii) grant a license to any patent, patent application,
>or trademark of Nokia Corporation, ALU-USA. or any of their affiliates,
>(iii) grant any third-party rights or licenses, or (iv) grant any
>rights
>for commercial purposes. Neither ALU-USA. nor Nokia Bell Laboratories
>will
>furnish or provided support for Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10,
>and
>make no warranties or representations hereunder, including but not
>limited
>to any warranty or representation that Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and
>10 does not infringe any third party intellectual property rights or
>that
>Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10 is fit for any particular purpose.
>
>There are some issues around the copyright of third party material in
>8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix, but I'm going to bite the bullet and
>make them available in the Unix Archive. I'll post details later today.
>
>Cheers, Warren

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Cory Smelosky]

On Tue, 28 Mar 2017, Jason Stevens wrote:

> There is an emulator.. I was actually playing with it earlier this week trying to get SunOS 2 to boot, on a SUN-2 ..
>
> Anyway it's called TME
>
> http://people.csail.mit.edu/fredette/tme/
>
> And updates here:
>
> http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Retro.Sun2
>

Oh hey - thanks.

Maybe I can finally build stuff without segfaults.

> I think my machine may be too fast.  It's very touchy to build and I think the slj threadding is really interesting but may also introduce complications...
>
> On March 28, 2017 10:13:42 AM GMT+08:00, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>>> Looks like v9 runs on Sun-3/50.
>>>
>>> Now to hope my Sun-3 is a 3/50 and well...find it. ;)
>>
>> Heh.  I went to ebay to see if you could still find 'em, no such luck.
>
>

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Derek Fawcus]

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 06:43:54AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> They are now in four subdirectories at
> http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/

Thank you.  Very interesting.

Now if only I could find the unix source for Tom Duff's rc shell in there.
Or maybe I'm overlooking it?

DF

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Brad Spencer]

Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> writes:

>> Looks like v9 runs on Sun-3/50.
>> 
>> Now to hope my Sun-3 is a 3/50 and well...find it. ;)
>
> Heh.  I went to ebay to see if you could still find 'em, no such luck.


I have a bunch of 32bit Sun stuff that I have been wanted to get rid of
for some time.  It is free to anyone who pays to have it shipped to
them, or if you are close enough to my location, hand delivered.

I know I have two Sun 3/50 systems, one of them has a third party memory
expansion board.  Both booted NetBSD but probably not for something like
10+ years.  I have hard drives, enclosures and cables for nearly all of
it.

The entire collection is crudely displayed at:

    http://anduin.eldar.org/~brad/sunstuff/


I can provide detailed descriptions of anything you see.  Items 7A and
7B are the Sun 3/50 systems.  Contact me off list if there is any
interest.





-- 
Brad Spencer - brad at anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS
http://anduin.eldar.org  - & -  http://anduin.ipv6.eldar.org [IPv6 only]

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Álvaro Jurado]

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Thanks to everyone involved.

Álvaro

El 28 mar. 2017 14:26, "Brad Spencer" <brad at anduin.eldar.org> escribió:

> Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> writes:
>
> >> Looks like v9 runs on Sun-3/50.
> >>
> >> Now to hope my Sun-3 is a 3/50 and well...find it. ;)
> >
> > Heh.  I went to ebay to see if you could still find 'em, no such luck.
>
>
> I have a bunch of 32bit Sun stuff that I have been wanted to get rid of
> for some time.  It is free to anyone who pays to have it shipped to
> them, or if you are close enough to my location, hand delivered.
>
> I know I have two Sun 3/50 systems, one of them has a third party memory
> expansion board.  Both booted NetBSD but probably not for something like
> 10+ years.  I have hard drives, enclosures and cables for nearly all of
> it.
>
> The entire collection is crudely displayed at:
>
>     http://anduin.eldar.org/~brad/sunstuff/
>
>
> I can provide detailed descriptions of anything you see.  Items 7A and
> 7B are the Sun 3/50 systems.  Contact me off list if there is any
> interest.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Brad Spencer - brad at anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS
> http://anduin.eldar.org  - & -  http://anduin.ipv6.eldar.org [IPv6 only]
>
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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Arthur Krewat]

Glad I kept my 3/280

It was in a VME 12-slot (I think) ComputerVision workstation. But I also 
found a Sun 4/440 that had been upgraded from a 3/280 - so I have a real 
Sun backplane with the 3/280 in it - gotta see if it'll fire up again.

I could shoot myself for not saving some of the Sun-2 machines I found. 
All were units at Loral Fairchild in Syosset, NY. The Sun-4 I 
administered until it was deprecated, but when I snooped around one of 
their mothballed buildings, I found a slew of Sun-2's and that Sun-3. 
They did a lot of CAD stuff on those CV machines.

Is the 3/50 that much different than a 3/280?


On 3/27/2017 10:13 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
>> Looks like v9 runs on Sun-3/50.
>>
>> Now to hope my Sun-3 is a 3/50 and well...find it. ;)
> Heh.  I went to ebay to see if you could still find 'em, no such luck.
>

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Larry McVoy]

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:23:49AM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> Is the 3/50 that much different than a 3/280?

Different bus structure as I recall.  The 3/50 were workstations,
the 3/280 was big rack mounted VME (?) based system, mostly used
as file servers.

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Christian Neukirchen]

Derek Fawcus <dfawcus+lists-tuhs at employees.org> writes:

> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 06:43:54AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>> They are now in four subdirectories at
>> http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/
>
> Thank you.  Very interesting.
>
> Now if only I could find the unix source for Tom Duff's rc shell in there.
> Or maybe I'm overlooking it?

I didn't find it so far, the manpage is there though.

Other fun things I saw on a quick tour are in v10blit:
src/jim 

in v10src:
cmd/movie
cmd/cyntax
cmd/monk
cmd/dag (precedessor of dot?)
cmd/cfront/cfront2.00

-- 
Christian Neukirchen  <chneukirchen at gmail.com>  http://chneukirchen.org

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Dan Cross]

I *think* the 3/50 had a VME bus. As I recall, it was basically a single
VME board mounted inside of a pizzabox case.

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:23:49AM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> > Is the 3/50 that much different than a 3/280?
>
> Different bus structure as I recall.  The 3/50 were workstations,
> the 3/280 was big rack mounted VME (?) based system, mostly used
> as file servers.
>
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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Larry McVoy]

Could be, I just remember the 3/280 as a monster with lots of I/O.

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:38:48AM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> I *think* the 3/50 had a VME bus. As I recall, it was basically a single
> VME board mounted inside of a pizzabox case.
> 
> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:23:49AM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> > > Is the 3/50 that much different than a 3/280?
> >
> > Different bus structure as I recall.  The 3/50 were workstations,
> > the 3/280 was big rack mounted VME (?) based system, mostly used
> > as file servers.
> >

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Arthur Krewat]

Not according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun-3

The 3/50 was indeed a "pizza box" according to this, but Brad Spencer's 
images 7A and 7B he purports these are 3/50 boards: 
http://anduin.eldar.org/~brad/sunstuff/ - and those are definitely VME 
form-factor. Although, it's possible it uses only that "custom/private" 
third connector on the VME backplane?




On 3/28/2017 11:38 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
> I *think* the 3/50 had a VME bus. As I recall, it was basically a 
> single VME board mounted inside of a pizzabox case.
>
> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com 
> <mailto:lm at mcvoy.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:23:49AM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>     > Is the 3/50 that much different than a 3/280?
>
>     Different bus structure as I recall.  The 3/50 were workstations,
>     the 3/280 was big rack mounted VME (?) based system, mostly used
>     as file servers.
>
>

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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[ron minnich]

This is pretty nice summary:
http://sunstuff.org/hardware/systems/sun3/sun3/3-50/ and
http://sunstuff.org/hardware/systems/sun3/sun3/3-280/

I'm always amazed at what's out there.

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 8:47 AM Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net> wrote:

> Not according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun-3
>
> The 3/50 was indeed a "pizza box" according to this, but Brad Spencer's
> images 7A and 7B he purports these are 3/50 boards:
> http://anduin.eldar.org/~brad/sunstuff/ - and those are definitely VME
> form-factor. Although, it's possible it uses only that "custom/private"
> third connector on the VME backplane?
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/28/2017 11:38 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
>
> I *think* the 3/50 had a VME bus. As I recall, it was basically a single
> VME board mounted inside of a pizzabox case.
>
> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:23:49AM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> > Is the 3/50 that much different than a 3/280?
>
> Different bus structure as I recall.  The 3/50 were workstations,
> the 3/280 was big rack mounted VME (?) based system, mostly used
> as file servers.
>
>
>
>
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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Brad Spencer]

Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net> writes:

> Not according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun-3
>
> The 3/50 was indeed a "pizza box" according to this, but Brad Spencer's 
> images 7A and 7B he purports these are 3/50 boards: 
> http://anduin.eldar.org/~brad/sunstuff/ - and those are definitely VME 
> form-factor. Although, it's possible it uses only that "custom/private" 
> third connector on the VME backplane?

> On 3/28/2017 11:38 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
>> I *think* the 3/50 had a VME bus. As I recall, it was basically a 
>> single VME board mounted inside of a pizzabox case.

My understanding is that the 3/50 is indeed some sort of VME system, as
is the 4/110, with some address related oddities.  But it has been a
very long time since I booted a 3/50 up...  The 3/50 I have are in their
cases, I just opened them up for the pictures.

What is not a VME system was the 3/80, which I also have.


-- 
Brad Spencer - brad at anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS
http://anduin.eldar.org  - & -  http://anduin.ipv6.eldar.org [IPv6 only]

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Steve Simon]

if cfront is of interest v3.0 and i think v3.1 are available here:
http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/c_plus_plus

i did manage to get the final version to run on plan9 but it supports no modern constructs and so was little real use.

-Steve


> On 28 Mar 2017, at 16:36, Christian Neukirchen <chneukirchen at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Derek Fawcus <dfawcus+lists-tuhs at employees.org> writes:
> 
>>> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 06:43:54AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>>> They are now in four subdirectories at
>>> http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Research/
>> 
>> Thank you.  Very interesting.
>> 
>> Now if only I could find the unix source for Tom Duff's rc shell in there.
>> Or maybe I'm overlooking it?
> 
> I didn't find it so far, the manpage is there though.
> 
> Other fun things I saw on a quick tour are in v10blit:
> src/jim 
> 
> in v10src:
> cmd/movie
> cmd/cyntax
> cmd/monk
> cmd/dag (precedessor of dot?)
> cmd/cfront/cfront2.00
> 
> -- 
> Christian Neukirchen  <chneukirchen at gmail.com>  http://chneukirchen.org
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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> Could be, I just remember the 3/280 as a monster with lots of I/O.

One difference, if memory still serves, is the 3/50 has a 68010 CPU, 
whereas the 3/280 has a 68020.

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Larry McVoy]

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 10:30:21AM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> 
> >Could be, I just remember the 3/280 as a monster with lots of I/O.
> 
> One difference, if memory still serves, is the 3/50 has a 68010 CPU, whereas
> the 3/280 has a 68020.

Nope, both had 68020s.  

http://sunstuff.org/hardware/systems/sun3/
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Larry McVoy]

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 01:00:41PM -0400, Brad Spencer wrote:
> Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net> writes:
> 
> > Not according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun-3
> >
> > The 3/50 was indeed a "pizza box" according to this, but Brad Spencer's 
> > images 7A and 7B he purports these are 3/50 boards: 
> > http://anduin.eldar.org/~brad/sunstuff/ - and those are definitely VME 
> > form-factor. Although, it's possible it uses only that "custom/private" 
> > third connector on the VME backplane?
> 
> > On 3/28/2017 11:38 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
> >> I *think* the 3/50 had a VME bus. As I recall, it was basically a 
> >> single VME board mounted inside of a pizzabox case.
> 
> My understanding is that the 3/50 is indeed some sort of VME system, as
> is the 4/110, with some address related oddities.  But it has been a
> very long time since I booted a 3/50 up...  The 3/50 I have are in their
> cases, I just opened them up for the pictures.

Hmm, so the 4/110 being VME is for sure correct, I had one of those when
I was at Sun.  The 3/50, I just don't think it was VME.  I believe they
made a version that was a single VME board but so far as I know that was
a different beast.  I could be wrong, I googled a bit and couldn't figure
it out.

What I know for sure is, unlike a 4/110, you couldn't open up the case 
and shove more VME stuff in there.  If the 3/50 was a VME board I'm not
sure what the point was other than, perhaps, to reuse the same part in
a small case.  I can't see Andy doing that, he was super cost sensitive.

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Joerg Schilling]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 770 bytes --]

Brad Spencer <brad at anduin.eldar.org> wrote:

> My understanding is that the 3/50 is indeed some sort of VME system, as
> is the 4/110, with some address related oddities.  But it has been a
> very long time since I booted a 3/50 up...  The 3/50 I have are in their
> cases, I just opened them up for the pictures.

The 3/50 and 3/60 used a VME-type socket, but only the power pins are connected.


> What is not a VME system was the 3/80, which I also have.

The 3/80 was a SS-1 form factor board.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.net                  (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Brad Spencer]

Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> writes:

>> My understanding is that the 3/50 is indeed some sort of VME system, as
>> is the 4/110, with some address related oddities.  But it has been a
>> very long time since I booted a 3/50 up...  The 3/50 I have are in their
>> cases, I just opened them up for the pictures.
>
> Hmm, so the 4/110 being VME is for sure correct, I had one of those when
> I was at Sun.  The 3/50, I just don't think it was VME.  I believe they
> made a version that was a single VME board but so far as I know that was
> a different beast.  I could be wrong, I googled a bit and couldn't figure
> it out.
>
> What I know for sure is, unlike a 4/110, you couldn't open up the case 
> and shove more VME stuff in there.  If the 3/50 was a VME board I'm not
> sure what the point was other than, perhaps, to reuse the same part in
> a small case.  I can't see Andy doing that, he was super cost sensitive.


I think that the 3/50 was a "single board" VME system... and as you say
you really couldn't add anything to it.  I will pull one out and get
some close up shots of the connectors and perhaps the answer can be
determined by physical inspection.  I also looked at the config file for
NetBSD for the sun3 and it very much mentions vme all over the place,
but that may not have applied to the 3/50.  Is it possible that just VME
connector was used for power and the like... but nothing else??



-- 
Brad Spencer - brad at anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS
http://anduin.eldar.org  - & -  http://anduin.ipv6.eldar.org [IPv6 only]

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Tim Newsham]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2128 bytes --]

Amazing!  Thank you!!!!

Anyone have plans to bring Jerq to life in emulation?

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> All, today after some heroic efforts by numerous people over many years,
> Nokia-Alcatel has issued this statement at
> https://media-bell-labs-com.s3.amazonaws.com/pages/
> 20170327_1602/statement%20regarding%20Unix%203-7-17.pdf
>
> Statement Regarding Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10
> Alcatel-Lucent USA Inc. (“ALU-USA”), on behalf of itself and Nokia
> Bell Laboratories agrees, to the extent of its ability to do so, that it
> will not assert its copyright rights with respect to any non-commercial
> copying, distribution, performance, display or creation of derivative
> works of Research Unix®1 Editions 8, 9, and 10. The foregoing does not
> (i) transfer ownership of, or relinquish any, intellectual property rights
> (including patent rights) of Nokia Corporation, ALU-USA or any of their
> affiliates, (ii) grant a license to any patent, patent application,
> or trademark of Nokia Corporation, ALU-USA. or any of their affiliates,
> (iii) grant any third-party rights or licenses, or (iv) grant any rights
> for commercial purposes. Neither ALU-USA. nor Nokia Bell Laboratories will
> furnish or provided support for Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10, and
> make no warranties or representations hereunder, including but not limited
> to any warranty or representation that Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and
> 10 does not infringe any third party intellectual property rights or that
> Research Unix Editions 8, 9, and 10 is fit for any particular purpose.
>
> There are some issues around the copyright of third party material in
> 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix, but I'm going to bite the bullet and
> make them available in the Unix Archive. I'll post details later today.
>
> Cheers, Warren
>



-- 
Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | @newshtwit | thenewsh.blogspot.com
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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[arnold]

Christian Neukirchen <chneukirchen at gmail.com> wrote:

> Other fun things I saw on a quick tour are in v10blit:
> src/jim 

There's a great opportunity here for someone with too much time
on their hands to set up jerq emulation on a raspberry pi .... :-)

Arnold

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Larry McVoy]

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 02:02:06PM -0400, Brad Spencer wrote:
> Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> writes:
> 
> >> My understanding is that the 3/50 is indeed some sort of VME system, as
> >> is the 4/110, with some address related oddities.  But it has been a
> >> very long time since I booted a 3/50 up...  The 3/50 I have are in their
> >> cases, I just opened them up for the pictures.
> >
> > Hmm, so the 4/110 being VME is for sure correct, I had one of those when
> > I was at Sun.  The 3/50, I just don't think it was VME.  I believe they
> > made a version that was a single VME board but so far as I know that was
> > a different beast.  I could be wrong, I googled a bit and couldn't figure
> > it out.
> >
> > What I know for sure is, unlike a 4/110, you couldn't open up the case 
> > and shove more VME stuff in there.  If the 3/50 was a VME board I'm not
> > sure what the point was other than, perhaps, to reuse the same part in
> > a small case.  I can't see Andy doing that, he was super cost sensitive.
> 
> 
> I think that the 3/50 was a "single board" VME system... and as you say
> you really couldn't add anything to it.  I will pull one out and get
> some close up shots of the connectors and perhaps the answer can be
> determined by physical inspection.  I also looked at the config file for
> NetBSD for the sun3 and it very much mentions vme all over the place,
> but that may not have applied to the 3/50.  Is it possible that just VME
> connector was used for power and the like... but nothing else??

That actually rings a bell, could be.

I think it was 3/110 that had the same case/bus as the 4/110.  Less sure
about that, I'm not sure I've ever used a 3/110.  Got a lot of miles on
a 4/110, did a ton of UFS work on that machine.

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Kurt H Maier]

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 08:07:45AM -1000, Tim Newsham wrote:
> Amazing!  Thank you!!!!
> 
> Anyone have plans to bring Jerq to life in emulation?
> 

There is one in 9front:
http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/3595611ca650/sys/src/games/blit

Should work with plan9port.

khm

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Brad Spencer]

Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> writes:

> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 02:02:06PM -0400, Brad Spencer wrote:
>> Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> writes:
>> 
>> >> My understanding is that the 3/50 is indeed some sort of VME system, as
>> >> is the 4/110, with some address related oddities.  But it has been a
>> >> very long time since I booted a 3/50 up...  The 3/50 I have are in their
>> >> cases, I just opened them up for the pictures.
>> >
>> > Hmm, so the 4/110 being VME is for sure correct, I had one of those when
>> > I was at Sun.  The 3/50, I just don't think it was VME.  I believe they
>> > made a version that was a single VME board but so far as I know that was
>> > a different beast.  I could be wrong, I googled a bit and couldn't figure
>> > it out.
>> >
>> > What I know for sure is, unlike a 4/110, you couldn't open up the case 
>> > and shove more VME stuff in there.  If the 3/50 was a VME board I'm not
>> > sure what the point was other than, perhaps, to reuse the same part in
>> > a small case.  I can't see Andy doing that, he was super cost sensitive.
>> 
>> 
>> I think that the 3/50 was a "single board" VME system... and as you say
>> you really couldn't add anything to it.  I will pull one out and get
>> some close up shots of the connectors and perhaps the answer can be
>> determined by physical inspection.  I also looked at the config file for
>> NetBSD for the sun3 and it very much mentions vme all over the place,
>> but that may not have applied to the 3/50.  Is it possible that just VME
>> connector was used for power and the like... but nothing else??
>
> That actually rings a bell, could be.
>
> I think it was 3/110 that had the same case/bus as the 4/110.  Less sure
> about that, I'm not sure I've ever used a 3/110.  Got a lot of miles on
> a 4/110, did a ton of UFS work on that machine.


I took some more pictures.  The connector on the 3/50 is certainly VME.

http://anduin.eldar.org/~brad/sunstuff/Item_7B_board_connector.jpg
- the 3/50 without the memory expansion board, close up of the board
connector.

http://anduin.eldar.org/~brad/sunstuff/Item_7B_case_connector.jpg
- a very bad shot of the case that the 3/50 board goes into

http://anduin.eldar.org/~brad/sunstuff/Item_8_board_closeup.jpg
- a closer picture of the 4/110.  Note the three connectors.

http://anduin.eldar.org/~brad/sunstuff/Item_8_case_connectors.jpg
- the inside of the 4/110 case




-- 
Brad Spencer - brad at anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS
http://anduin.eldar.org  - & -  http://anduin.ipv6.eldar.org [IPv6 only]

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

On Tuesday, 28 March 2017 at  8:26:12 -0400, Brad Spencer wrote:
> Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> writes:
>
>>> Looks like v9 runs on Sun-3/50.
>>>
>>> Now to hope my Sun-3 is a 3/50 and well...find it. ;)
>>
>> Heh.  I went to ebay to see if you could still find 'em, no such luck.
>
> I have a bunch of 32bit Sun stuff that I have been wanted to get rid of
> for some time.

So do I, but I'm keeping it.  The pizza boxes (SS2, SS5 and SS20) are
just the right shape and size to prop up the monitors on my desk.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Peter Jeremy]

On 2017-Mar-28 10:42:54 -0700, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>and shove more VME stuff in there.  If the 3/50 was a VME board I'm not
>sure what the point was other than, perhaps, to reuse the same part in
>a small case.  I can't see Andy doing that, he was super cost sensitive.

Unless you're planning on selling lots of them, using the same PCB and
just not populating the bus interface logic might be cheaper than
designing a new board.

-- 
Peter Jeremy
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[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[George Ross]

> I think that the 3/50 was a "single board" VME system... and as you say
> you really couldn't add anything to it.

IIRC the only way to add anything to it was to pull the processor from its 
socket, plug in a daughterboard, and then plug the processor back into that.
It did feel a whole lot more responsive with that extra 8MB of memory!
-- 
George D M Ross MSc PhD CEng MBCS CITP, University of Edinburgh,
School of Informatics, 10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH8 9AB
Mail: gdmr at inf.ed.ac.uk   Voice: 0131 650 5147   Fax: 0131 650 6899
PGP: 1024D/AD758CC5  B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A  426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Joerg Schilling]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1171 bytes --]

Peter Jeremy <peter at rulingia.com> wrote:

> On 2017-Mar-28 10:42:54 -0700, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> >and shove more VME stuff in there.  If the 3/50 was a VME board I'm not
> >sure what the point was other than, perhaps, to reuse the same part in
> >a small case.  I can't see Andy doing that, he was super cost sensitive.
>
> Unless you're planning on selling lots of them, using the same PCB and
> just not populating the bus interface logic might be cheaper than
> designing a new board.

It also helps to manage many of them in larger cabinets.

In 1991-1992, we added self made ISDN boards to the Boot-Prom socket of
Sun 3-50s, put several of them into a Sun/3-160 cabinet that then was put into 
the computer room of the TU-Berlin as a ISDN<->IP gateway for students.

There was e.g. a cabinet with the machines named "fa", "so", "la" "si" in the
domain ".isdn.cs-tu-berlin.de".

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.net                  (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Joerg Schilling]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 874 bytes --]

George Ross <gdmr at inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

> > I think that the 3/50 was a "single board" VME system... and as you say
> > you really couldn't add anything to it.
>
> IIRC the only way to add anything to it was to pull the processor from its 
> socket, plug in a daughterboard, and then plug the processor back into that.
> It did feel a whole lot more responsive with that extra 8MB of memory!

The method to "upgrade" a Sun-3/50 was to pull the gate arrays and add a 
doughter board. There have been such extensions from "Sunflower". A company 
that was latrer forced by Sun to rename into "Solflower".

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.net                  (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Warner Losh]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 3:38 AM, Joerg Schilling <schily at schily.net> wrote:
> George Ross <gdmr at inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> > I think that the 3/50 was a "single board" VME system... and as you say
>> > you really couldn't add anything to it.
>>
>> IIRC the only way to add anything to it was to pull the processor from its
>> socket, plug in a daughterboard, and then plug the processor back into that.
>> It did feel a whole lot more responsive with that extra 8MB of memory!
>
> The method to "upgrade" a Sun-3/50 was to pull the gate arrays and add a
> doughter board. There have been such extensions from "Sunflower". A company
> that was latrer forced by Sun to rename into "Solflower".

I know people that did unnatural things to upgrade the Sun 3/50 to
something that had enough memory not to suck. Oh, and to have real
disks, rather than the crazy SCSI to ESDI disks that had performance
only marginally better than floppy drives....   IIRC, the hard part
was getting a VME "cage" to allow other cards to in inserted, which
killed the pizza-box implementation of the 3/50. But it's been a long
time since that happened, and maybe I'm misremembering. Maybe that was
only possible with the 3/60.

Warner

[TUHS] Release of 8th, 9th and 10th Editions Unix

[Norman Wilson]

Arnold:

  > Well, I'll take credit for pushing Norman yet again. :-)

  ARGGH.  That should have been

	Well, I'll take credit for pushing Warren ...
					   ^^^^^^

=====

I confess I didn't notice the fumble the first time.

But in fact Warren has had the dubious pleasure of
pushing me for something more than once.  So just
think of it as another level of indirection.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON