[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[Will Senn]

In exploring v6, I have found some uses for having a running v7 instance...

When I try to install the RP bootblock during the installation procedure 
for installing Version 7 Unix following the original documentation:
ftp://ftp.uvsq.fr/pub/tuhs/PDP-11/Documentation/v7_setup.html

I am unable to boot from the RP06 disk that I installed into the boot 
block onto via:
dd if=/usr/mdec/hpuboot of=/dev/rp0 count=1

No error, it just hangs. I compared hpuboot to the bootblock at it 
matches byte for byte. I also compared it to the hpuboot file in Henry 
Spencer's tape image (I am using Keith Bostic's tape) and it matches 
that as well.

I am asking this list because I thought y'all might know if there was a 
problem with:

1) the hpuboot binary on the tapes
2) v7 using RP06
3) something else helpful :) (maybe it's not supposed to be loaded to 
byte 0 on the disk image, although that's how it works with v6?)

I am aware that the system can be booted from tape, but that seems hokey 
(obviously it works, since that's how the installation process works in 
the first place, but I think it is reasonable to expect to be able to 
boot from the RP06). Interestingly, there are and RL02 and RK05 v7 
images that boot from disk available, but not RP.

I will ask on the SimH list, if y'all don't think it's appropriately 
directed.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Will
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[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[Clem Cole]

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On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:03 PM, Will Senn <will.senn at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am unable to boot from the RP06 disk that I installed into the boot
> block onto via:
> dd if=/usr/mdec/hpuboot of=/dev/rp0 count=1
>
​Doing this from memory as couple of issues:

1.) do an ls -l of /dev/*rp*  you need to use the raw (character) driver
not the blocked driver
2.) I believe the hp/rp driver is partitioned.   Make sure you use the
proper partition.​
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[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[Will Senn]

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On 12/5/15 11:26 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
>
> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:03 PM, Will Senn <will.senn at gmail.com 
> <mailto:will.senn at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I am unable to boot from the RP06 disk that I installed into the
>     boot block onto via:
>     dd if=/usr/mdec/hpuboot of=/dev/rp0 count=1
>
> ​Doing this from memory as couple of issues:
>
> 1.) do an ls -l of /dev/*rp*  you need to use the raw (character) 
> driver not the blocked driver
> 2.) I believe the hp/rp driver is partitioned.   Make sure you use the 
> proper partition.​
>
>
Clem,

I tried it with the raw device and partition 0. Here are the devices and 
my approach:

# ls /dev/*rp*
/dev/rp0
/dev/rp3
/dev/rrp0
/dev/rrp3

# /etc/mount /dev/rp3 /usr
# dd if=/usr/mdec/hpuboot of=/dev/rrp0 count=1 conv=sync
0+1 records in
1+0 records out
or
# dd if=/usr/mdec/hpuboot of=/dev/rrp0 count=1
0+1 records in
0+1 records out

# sync
# sync
# sync
CTRL-E

Simulation stopped, PC: 002306 (MOV (SP)+,177776)
sim> q
Goodbye

TERRA:bostic-v7 wsenn$ pdp11 nboot.ini

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta        git commit id: 0f43551d

Disabling XQ

Hangs either way!
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[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[Clem Cole]

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Ah I gather you are running on rp0 (ie it's mounted as root).

Do the dd from the standalone system or boot from an rk05

On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Will Senn <will.senn at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 12/5/15 11:26 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:03 PM, Will Senn <will.senn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am unable to boot from the RP06 disk that I installed into the boot
>> block onto via:
>> dd if=/usr/mdec/hpuboot of=/dev/rp0 count=1
>>
> ​Doing this from memory as couple of issues:
>
> 1.) do an ls -l of /dev/*rp*  you need to use the raw (character) driver
> not the blocked driver
> 2.) I believe the hp/rp driver is partitioned.   Make sure you use the
> proper partition.​
>
>
> Clem,
>
> I tried it with the raw device and partition 0. Here are the devices and
> my approach:
>
> # ls /dev/*rp*
> /dev/rp0
> /dev/rp3
> /dev/rrp0
> /dev/rrp3
>
> # /etc/mount /dev/rp3 /usr
> # dd if=/usr/mdec/hpuboot of=/dev/rrp0 count=1 conv=sync
> 0+1 records in
> 1+0 records out
> or
> # dd if=/usr/mdec/hpuboot of=/dev/rrp0 count=1
> 0+1 records in
> 0+1 records out
>
> # sync
> # sync
> # sync
> CTRL-E
>
> Simulation stopped, PC: 002306 (MOV (SP)+,177776)
> sim> q
> Goodbye
>
> TERRA:bostic-v7 wsenn$ pdp11 nboot.ini
>
> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta        git commit id: 0f43551d
>
> Disabling XQ
>
> Hangs either way!
>
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[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[Clem Cole]

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You are most welcome -- BTW:  the first name is Clement, my last is Cole
and my friends call me Clem.

One thing to remember... when woring with older versions of UNIX its not a
good idea to be modify in the a partition that is live.   Later versions
were better about keeping the buffering system of your way.

Ken wrote the standalone tools for V7 so you do those sort of low level
things from it.

Best wishes.

Clem

On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> Ah I gather you are running on rp0 (ie it's mounted as root).
>
> Do the dd from the standalone system or boot from an rk05
>
> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Will Senn <will.senn at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 12/5/15 11:26 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:03 PM, Will Senn <will.senn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am unable to boot from the RP06 disk that I installed into the boot
>>> block onto via:
>>> dd if=/usr/mdec/hpuboot of=/dev/rp0 count=1
>>>
>> ​Doing this from memory as couple of issues:
>>
>> 1.) do an ls -l of /dev/*rp*  you need to use the raw (character) driver
>> not the blocked driver
>> 2.) I believe the hp/rp driver is partitioned.   Make sure you use the
>> proper partition.​
>>
>>
>> Clem,
>>
>> I tried it with the raw device and partition 0. Here are the devices and
>> my approach:
>>
>> # ls /dev/*rp*
>> /dev/rp0
>> /dev/rp3
>> /dev/rrp0
>> /dev/rrp3
>>
>> # /etc/mount /dev/rp3 /usr
>> # dd if=/usr/mdec/hpuboot of=/dev/rrp0 count=1 conv=sync
>> 0+1 records in
>> 1+0 records out
>> or
>> # dd if=/usr/mdec/hpuboot of=/dev/rrp0 count=1
>> 0+1 records in
>> 0+1 records out
>>
>> # sync
>> # sync
>> # sync
>> CTRL-E
>>
>> Simulation stopped, PC: 002306 (MOV (SP)+,177776)
>> sim> q
>> Goodbye
>>
>> TERRA:bostic-v7 wsenn$ pdp11 nboot.ini
>>
>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta        git commit id: 0f43551d
>>
>> Disabling XQ
>>
>> Hangs either way!
>>
>
>
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[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[Ronald Natalie]

> On Dec 5, 2015, at 2:53 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> 
> You are most welcome -- BTW:  the first name is Clement, my last is Cole and my friends call me Clem.

Uh, Clem is right out?


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[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[Clem cole]

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Ah Clem😉

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 5, 2015, at 2:59 PM, Ronald Natalie <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Dec 5, 2015, at 2:53 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>> 
>> You are most welcome -- BTW:  the first name is Clement, my last is Cole and my friends call me Clem.
> 
> Uh, Clem is right out?
> 
> 
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[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[Will Senn]

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Thanks for the clarification and information. I will keep these things 
in mind.

Regards,

Will

On 12/5/15 1:53 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
> You are most welcome -- BTW:  the first name is Clement, my last is 
> Cole and my friends call me Clem.
>
> One thing to remember... when woring with older versions of UNIX its 
> not a good idea to be modify in the a partition that is live. Later 
> versions were better about keeping the buffering system of your way.
>
> Ken wrote the standalone tools for V7 so you do those sort of low 
> level things from it.
>
> Best wishes.
>
> Clem
>
> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com 
> <mailto:clemc at ccc.com>> wrote:
>
>     Ah I gather you are running on rp0 (ie it's mounted as root).
>
>     Do the dd from the standalone system or boot from an rk05
>
>     On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Will Senn <will.senn at gmail.com
>     <mailto:will.senn at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>         On 12/5/15 11:26 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
>>
>>         On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:03 PM, Will Senn
>>         <will.senn at gmail.com <mailto:will.senn at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             I am unable to boot from the RP06 disk that I installed
>>             into the boot block onto via:
>>             dd if=/usr/mdec/hpuboot of=/dev/rp0 count=1
>>
>>         ​ Doing this from memory as couple of issues:
>>
>>         1.) do an ls -l of /dev/*rp*  you need to use the raw
>>         (character) driver not the blocked driver
>>         2.) I believe the hp/rp driver is partitioned.   Make sure
>>         you use the proper partition.​
>>
>>
>         Clem,
>
>         I tried it with the raw device and partition 0. Here are the
>         devices and my approach:
>
>         # ls /dev/*rp*
>         /dev/rp0
>         /dev/rp3
>         /dev/rrp0
>         /dev/rrp3
>
>         # /etc/mount /dev/rp3 /usr
>         # dd if=/usr/mdec/hpuboot of=/dev/rrp0 count=1 conv=sync
>         0+1 records in
>         1+0 records out
>         or
>         # dd if=/usr/mdec/hpuboot of=/dev/rrp0 count=1
>         0+1 records in
>         0+1 records out
>
>         # sync
>         # sync
>         # sync
>         CTRL-E
>
>         Simulation stopped, PC: 002306 (MOV (SP)+,177776)
>         sim> q
>         Goodbye
>
>         TERRA:bostic-v7 wsenn$ pdp11 nboot.ini
>
>         PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta        git commit id: 0f43551d
>
>         Disabling XQ
>
>         Hangs either way!
>
>
>

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[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[Hellwig Geisse]

Will,

when I brought up UNIX V7 on simh ~10 years ago, I used
Keith Bostic's tape, a simulated PDP11/45, an RP04 disk and
a TU10 tape drive. With this configuration it worked exactly
as described in 'Setting Up Unix'. IIRC, other configurations
had problems, although I never investigated this further.

You can find my package and a HOWTO here:
http://homepages.thm.de/~hg53/pdp11-unix

One note of caution: I did not try to build the whole thing
on a modern 64-bit system; it may well refuse to run. I will
try to bring it up on my 64-bit Linux box and then report
back here, if you are interested.

Hellwig

[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[Will Senn]

On 12/5/15 11:53 AM, Hellwig Geisse wrote:
> Will,
>
> when I brought up UNIX V7 on simh ~10 years ago, I used
> Keith Bostic's tape, a simulated PDP11/45, an RP04 disk and
> a TU10 tape drive. With this configuration it worked exactly
> as described in 'Setting Up Unix'. IIRC, other configurations
> had problems, although I never investigated this further.
>
> You can find my package and a HOWTO here:
> http://homepages.thm.de/~hg53/pdp11-unix
>
> One note of caution: I did not try to build the whole thing
> on a modern 64-bit system; it may well refuse to run. I will
> try to bring it up on my 64-bit Linux box and then report
> back here, if you are interested.
>
> Hellwig
>
Hellwig,

Much thanks for the explanation and link. I will try your instructions 
and see if they still work. Your notes are exceptionally clear, I expect 
if I follow them things, will work as expected. I'll let you know.

Thanks,

Will

[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[Will Senn]

Problem solved - see below.

On 12/5/15 12:01 PM, Will Senn wrote:
>
> On 12/5/15 11:53 AM, Hellwig Geisse wrote:
>> Will,
>>
>> One note of caution: I did not try to build the whole thing
>> on a modern 64-bit system; it may well refuse to run. I will
>> try to bring it up on my 64-bit Linux box and then report
>> back here, if you are interested.
>>
>> Hellwig
>>
> Hellwig,
>
> Much thanks for the explanation and link. I will try your instructions 
> and see if they still work. Your notes are exceptionally clear, I 
> expect if I follow them things, will work as expected. I'll let you know.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Will
Well, you were right, sim didn't want to build 64 bit. However, I 
already had a working sim, so I simply used the existing pdp11 binary 
and your instructions. They worked!

In the process, I figured out that the original approach that I used 
worked as well. The issue wasn't with the RP disk, it was with the 
singular lack of a Boot prompt '@'. There isn't one. After the simulator 
prints 'Disabling XQ', the boot loader is just sitting there waiting for 
the user to type 'boot', at which point the loader will print 'Boot' and 
the ':' prompt will appear, allowing the kernel to be specified:

pdp11 tboot.ini
PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta        git commit id: 0f43551d
Disabling XQ
boot
Boot
: hp(0,0)unix
mem = 2020544
#

Thanks Hellwig and thanks Cole!

Regards,

Will

[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[Hellwig Geisse]

On Sa, 2015-12-05 at 12:39 -0600, Will Senn wrote:
> Well, you were right, sim didn't want to build 64 bit. However, I 
> already had a working sim, so I simply used the existing pdp11 binary 
> and your instructions. They worked!

I also tried it, but on my system simh compiles (there are a few
warnings which isn't nice, but all of them harmless) and it runs
without errors, as far as I can see.

> Thanks Hellwig and thanks Cole!

You're welcome - thanks for trying!

Hellwig

[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[Will Senn]

On 12/5/15 12:53 PM, Hellwig Geisse wrote:
> On Sa, 2015-12-05 at 12:39 -0600, Will Senn wrote:
>> Well, you were right, sim didn't want to build 64 bit. However, I
>> already had a working sim, so I simply used the existing pdp11 binary
>> and your instructions. They worked!
> I also tried it, but on my system simh compiles (there are a few
> warnings which isn't nice, but all of them harmless) and it runs
> without errors, as far as I can see.
>
Hellwig,

I only tried in on my Macbook with El Capitan, but I just confirmed that 
it works fine on FreeBSD 10.2 with the warnings as you describe.

Thanks,

Will

[TUHS] boot block in v7 bootable on rp06 in simh

[John Cowan]

Will Senn scripsit:

> Well, you were right, sim didn't want to build 64 bit. However, I
> already had a working sim, so I simply used the existing pdp11
> binary and your instructions. They worked!

I simply wrap gcc in this script:

#!/bin/sh
exec /usr/bin/gcc -m32 "$@"

to solve problems like this.  I keep it in ~/bin named gcc32 and
then rename it to gcc when I need to compile 32-bit-specific code.
It's much better than trying to whack on the Makefile.  I wish I could
use a similar hack to get bas/bs running directly on Linux: they seem
to assume 16-bitness, and segfault quickly.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less
than half of you half as well as you deserve.  --Bilbo