[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Erik E. Fair]

I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.

I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with itself?

I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.

Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was a clone of some kind ... ?

	looking for a little history,

	Erik Fair

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Jason Stevens]

Maybe it was UZI?

https://github.com/chettrick/uzics

I know it's been around..

On April 20, 2017 9:42:42 AM GMT+08:00, "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
>I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
>based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
>West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
>
>I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
>MMU, and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since
>Unix had "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the
>software ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying
>to play "core war" with itself?
>
>I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has
>been previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have
>for its use in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
>
>Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that
>it was a clone of some kind ... ?
>
>	looking for a little history,
>
>	Erik Fair

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Bakul Shah]

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based =
> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast =
> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> 
> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and 
> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown 
> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be 
> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with =
> itself?
> 
> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use
> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
> 
> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was 
> a clone of some kind ... ?
> 
> 	looking for a little history,
> 
> 	Erik Fair

You may be thinking of Cromemco.

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Gregg Levine]

Hello!
That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
>> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based =
>> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast =
>> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
>>
>> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and
>> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown
>> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be
>> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with =
>> itself?
>>
>> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
>> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use
>> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
>>
>> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was
>> a clone of some kind ... ?
>>
>>       looking for a little history,
>>
>>       Erik Fair
>
> You may be thinking of Cromemco.

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Rik Schneider]

Cromix was the name of Cromenco's Unix Like OS.

http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/crom/cromix.jpg

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
>> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based =
>> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast =
>> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
>>
>> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and
>> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown
>> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be
>> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with =
>> itself?
>>
>> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
>> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use
>> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
>>
>> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was
>> a clone of some kind ... ?
>>
>>       looking for a little history,
>>
>>       Erik Fair
>
> You may be thinking of Cromemco.

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Bakul Shah]

Yes, Cromemco was the company, Cromix their unix like OS.

IIRC, in 1981-83 timeframe someone I worked with had mentioned
he used to work at Cromemco and that they had a unix like OS
called Cromix. Cromemco were in Mountain View so likely they
were at the WCCF.

Even though z80 could only address 64k, their system had a
bank select under s/w control & upto 512K of RAM could be
added.  Z80 didn't have a supervisor mode but still, the bank
select must have  afforded enouh protection from bad pointers
crashing random processes.

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:30 EDT Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello!
> That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
> Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
> -----
> Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
> "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
> >> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based 
> >> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast
> >> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> >>
> >> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and
> >> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown
> >> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be
> >> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with 
> >> itself?
> >>
> >> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
> >> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use
> >> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
> >>
> >> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was
> >> a clone of some kind ... ?
> >>
> >>       looking for a little history,
> >>
> >>       Erik Fair
> >
> > You may be thinking of Cromemco.

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Warner Losh]

There were a number of 8088/8086 ports as well that didn't have memory
protection....

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:
> Yes, Cromemco was the company, Cromix their unix like OS.
>
> IIRC, in 1981-83 timeframe someone I worked with had mentioned
> he used to work at Cromemco and that they had a unix like OS
> called Cromix. Cromemco were in Mountain View so likely they
> were at the WCCF.
>
> Even though z80 could only address 64k, their system had a
> bank select under s/w control & upto 512K of RAM could be
> added.  Z80 didn't have a supervisor mode but still, the bank
> select must have  afforded enouh protection from bad pointers
> crashing random processes.
>
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:30 EDT Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello!
>> That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
>> Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
>> -----
>> Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
>> "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:
>> > On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
>> >> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based
>> >> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast
>> >> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
>> >>
>> >> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and
>> >> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown
>> >> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be
>> >> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with
>> >> itself?
>> >>
>> >> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
>> >> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use
>> >> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
>> >>
>> >> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was
>> >> a clone of some kind ... ?
>> >>
>> >>       looking for a little history,
>> >>
>> >>       Erik Fair
>> >
>> > You may be thinking of Cromemco.

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Wesley Parish]

FWIW, it appears to be here:
http://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/ftp/cromemco/
"cromix1127.tgz	Cromix 11.27
cromix_work.tgz	Cromix 11.27 with C compiler installed, Cromemco ed replaced
		with ANSI version, WordMaster installed. Ready to use work"

Wesley Parish

Quoting Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com>:

> Yes, Cromemco was the company, Cromix their unix like OS.
> 
> IIRC, in 1981-83 timeframe someone I worked with had mentioned
> he used to work at Cromemco and that they had a unix like OS
> called Cromix. Cromemco were in Mountain View so likely they
> were at the WCCF.
> 
> Even though z80 could only address 64k, their system had a
> bank select under s/w control & upto 512K of RAM could be
> added. Z80 didn't have a supervisor mode but still, the bank
> select must have afforded enouh protection from bad pointers
> crashing random processes.
> 
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:30 EDT Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hello!
> > That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
> > Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
> > -----
> > Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
> > "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com>
> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair"
> <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
> > >> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the
> Onyx) based 
> > >> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
> West Coast
> > >> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> > >>
> > >> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
> MMU, and
> > >> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix
> had "grown
> > >> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software
> ought to be
> > >> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war"
> with 
> > >> itself?
> > >>
> > >> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this
> has been
> > >> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have
> for its use
> > >> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
> > >>
> > >> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe
> that it was
> > >> a clone of some kind ... ?
> > >>
> > >> looking for a little history,
> > >>
> > >> Erik Fair
> > >
> > > You may be thinking of Cromemco.
>  



"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Wesley Parish]

This is a timeline of microcomputer Unix:

https://www.landley.net/history/mirror/robotwisdom/nonnix.html

Quoting Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>:

> FWIW, it appears to be here:
> http://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/ftp/cromemco/
> "cromix1127.tgz	Cromix 11.27
> cromix_work.tgz	Cromix 11.27 with C compiler installed, Cromemco ed
> replaced
> 		with ANSI version, WordMaster installed. Ready to use work"
> 
> Wesley Parish
> 
> Quoting Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com>:
> 
> > Yes, Cromemco was the company, Cromix their unix like OS.
> > 
> > IIRC, in 1981-83 timeframe someone I worked with had mentioned
> > he used to work at Cromemco and that they had a unix like OS
> > called Cromix. Cromemco were in Mountain View so likely they
> > were at the WCCF.
> > 
> > Even though z80 could only address 64k, their system had a
> > bank select under s/w control & upto 512K of RAM could be
> > added. Z80 didn't have a supervisor mode but still, the bank
> > select must have afforded enouh protection from bad pointers
> > crashing random processes.
> > 
> > On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:30 EDT Gregg Levine
> <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Hello!
> > > That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
> > > Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
> > > -----
> > > Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
> > > "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair"
> > <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
> > > >> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the
> > Onyx) based 
> > > >> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
> > West Coast
> > > >> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> > > >>
> > > >> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without
> an
> > MMU, and
> > > >> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since
> Unix
> > had "grown
> > > >> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software
> > ought to be
> > > >> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core
> war"
> > with 
> > > >> itself?
> > > >>
> > > >> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if
> this
> > has been
> > > >> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references
> have
> > for its use
> > > >> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
> > > >>
> > > >> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe
> > that it was
> > > >> a clone of some kind ... ?
> > > >>
> > > >> looking for a little history,
> > > >>
> > > >> Erik Fair
> > > >
> > > > You may be thinking of Cromemco.
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> "I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." -
> Ferdinand Sor,
> Method for Guitar
> 
> "A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel
> Goldwyn
>  



"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Clem Cole]

Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain Damaged Software (BDS)
and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C -
http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely available -
including the sources].   For years Leor's compiler was the de facto
standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M and such
systems.  [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M community was
using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of the language.  Leor
managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].

A couple of other folks (which I thought included Leor) had a UNIX-like
system running on/with it that we showed to Dennis at first Boston USENIX
in late the 1970s/early 1980s - that IIRC could take CP/M programs -
[although they may have to been relinked].   My memory is that the system
got sold/licensed to a firm on the west coast and marketed independently of
BDS C, [you might ask Leor or maybe some like Phil Karn - i.e. any one that
was doing both UNIX and CP/M in those days].

If forgotten the details, I do remember Dennis saying that it reminded him
very much of early UNIX and was very impressed with job that had been
done.  The basic tools were there: sh, ed, grep, ls and it was quite usable
modulo floppy disk speeds.

Clem



On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:

> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
> based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West
> Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
>
> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU,
> and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had
> "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software
> ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core
> war" with itself?
>
> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its
> use in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
>
> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it
> was a clone of some kind ... ?
>
>         looking for a little history,
>
>         Erik Fair
>
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[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Dave Horsfall]

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:

> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) 
> based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the 
> West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.

I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my passions...

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Larry McVoy]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 07:32:50AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:
> 
> > I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) 
> > based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the 
> > West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> 
> I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my passions...

I get the sentiment, I too have a fond spot for the Z-80, it's perhaps the
chip where I've done the most assembly (did assembler versions of ls, cp,
rm, etc for CP/M).

That said, would I _want_ a stripped down Unix on a floppy disk based Z-80
machine?  Hmm, well once I thought I wanted that old porsche coupe like
the one Richard Pryor & Gene Wilder drove in one of their movies.  I found
one, $13,000 in the late 1990's and drove it.  Curied me of ever wanting
a car that old.  Uncomfortable seats, everything rattled, the windows didn't
want to roll up, etc, etc.

I suspect that living on a Z-80 with floppies after the stuff we are used
to would not be pleasant.  At least not for me.  Fun but frustrating, where
is the network?  Where's my SSD?  64K?  Really?  Retro is cool but not that
retro :)

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Steve Nickolas]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Larry McVoy wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 07:32:50AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:
>>
>>> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
>>> based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
>>> West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
>>
>> I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my passions...
>
> I get the sentiment, I too have a fond spot for the Z-80, it's perhaps the
> chip where I've done the most assembly (did assembler versions of ls, cp,
> rm, etc for CP/M).
>
> That said, would I _want_ a stripped down Unix on a floppy disk based Z-80
> machine?  Hmm, well once I thought I wanted that old porsche coupe like
> the one Richard Pryor & Gene Wilder drove in one of their movies.  I found
> one, $13,000 in the late 1990's and drove it.  Curied me of ever wanting
> a car that old.  Uncomfortable seats, everything rattled, the windows didn't
> want to roll up, etc, etc.
>
> I suspect that living on a Z-80 with floppies after the stuff we are used
> to would not be pleasant.  At least not for me.  Fun but frustrating, where
> is the network?  Where's my SSD?  64K?  Really?  Retro is cool but not that
> retro :)
>

I'm a 6502 person myself.  Though I'm not sure I'd want to run a *x on my 
actual 6502 machine (a "Platinum" Apple //e), I wonder if something a bit 
unixier than GNO (Gno's Not Orca, runs on top of GS/OS) could be pulled 
off on my pet 6502-class machine, the 65816-based Apple IIgs, with 512K 
base in the common version and 1 MB base in the final...

-uso.

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Harald Arnesen]

Dave Horsfall [2017-04-20 23:32]:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:
> 
>> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) 
>> based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the 
>> West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> 
> I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my passions...

Check out Fuzix OS:

<https://plus.google.com/+AlanCoxLinux/posts/a2jAP7Pz1gj>
-- 
Hilsen Harald

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Pete Turnbull]

On 20/04/2017 22:59, Larry McVoy wrote:

> I suspect that living on a Z-80 with floppies after the stuff we are used
> to would not be pleasant.  At least not for me.  Fun but frustrating, where
> is the network?  Where's my SSD?  64K?  Really?  Retro is cool but not that
> retro :)

I've frequently run (and demonstrated at a UK DEC Legacy event) my 
PDP-11/23 running 7th Edition from a pair of RL02 hard drives in 256KB. 
That's slow enough to be painful, and horrifying to bystanders; I 
suspect a Z-80 floppy system would be slightly slower still.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Andy Kosela]

On Thursday, April 20, 2017, Harald Arnesen <harald at skogtun.org> wrote:

> Dave Horsfall [2017-04-20 23:32]:
> > On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:
> >
> >> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
> >> based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
> >> West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> >
> > I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my
> passions...
>
> Check out Fuzix OS:
>
> <https://plus.google.com/+AlanCoxLinux/posts/a2jAP7Pz1gj>
>
>
Simply beautiful!  And here is some documentation on getting it running on
a Z-80 emulator:

   https://sinrega.org/?p=218

--Andy
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[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Dave Horsfall]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1054 bytes --]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Clem Cole wrote:

> Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain Damaged Software 
> (BDS) and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C - 
> http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely 
> available - including the sources].   For years Leor's compiler was the 
> de facto standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M 
> and such systems.  [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M 
> community was using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of 
> the language.  Leor managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].

We must be talking about a different BDS C.

I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can only repeat a remark 
from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C 
compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C."  My Z-80 C compiler 
was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI.

My favourite test of any language is "can it process itself?".

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Clem cole]

That interesting Dave.  I had not heard of people that did not like it. I did not think Henry's comment was about Leor's  work. 

FWIW:  I can not say I personally pushed it as hard as i did other compilers later in my career but it always worked fine for me on the z80 and worked better than the Teletype corp z80 compiler which was the first one I saw 

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Apr 22, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Clem Cole wrote:
>> 
>> Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain Damaged Software 
>> (BDS) and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C - 
>> http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely 
>> available - including the sources].   For years Leor's compiler was the 
>> de facto standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M 
>> and such systems.  [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M 
>> community was using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of 
>> the language.  Leor managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].
> 
> We must be talking about a different BDS C.
> 
> I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can only repeat a remark 
> from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C 
> compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C."  My Z-80 C compiler 
> was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI.
> 
> My favourite test of any language is "can it process itself?".
> 
> -- 
> Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Clem cole]

Well you can try it if you like. The sources and binaries are freely available.  

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Apr 22, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> 
> My favourite test of any language is "can it process itself?".

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Larry McVoy]

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 07:07:13AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Clem Cole wrote:
> 
> > Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain Damaged Software 
> > (BDS) and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C - 
> > http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely 
> > available - including the sources]. ?? For years Leor's compiler was the 
> > de facto standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M 
> > and such systems. ??[What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M 
> > community was using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of 
> > the language.?? Leor managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].
> 
> We must be talking about a different BDS C.
> 
> I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can only repeat a remark 
> from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C 
> compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C."  My Z-80 C compiler 
> was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI.

I've never heard of Hi-Tech C but I am apparently more forgiving.  I spent
many happy hours using BDS C.  It wasn't exactly standard, the standard
I/O library was far from compat, but whatever, it was a C compiler on 
a CP/M system.  Pretty pleasant.

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Wesley Parish]

FWIW, I've got a copy of "A Book on C" by RE Berry, BAE Meekings and MD Soren, which presents an 
extension of Small C called RatC, and with example translations from RatC to 8080 and VAX.

Did anyone use RatC for any major project?

Wesley Parish

Quoting Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>:

> Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain Damaged Software
> (BDS)
> and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C -
> http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely
> available -
> including the sources]. For years Leor's compiler was the de facto
> standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M and
> such
> systems. [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M community
> was
> using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of the language.
> Leor
> managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].
> 
> A couple of other folks (which I thought included Leor) had a UNIX-like
> system running on/with it that we showed to Dennis at first Boston
> USENIX
> in late the 1970s/early 1980s - that IIRC could take CP/M programs -
> [although they may have to been relinked]. My memory is that the system
> got sold/licensed to a firm on the west coast and marketed independently
> of
> BDS C, [you might ask Leor or maybe some like Phil Karn - i.e. any one
> that
> was doing both UNIX and CP/M in those days].
> 
> If forgotten the details, I do remember Dennis saying that it reminded
> him
> very much of early UNIX and was very impressed with job that had been
> done. The basic tools were there: sh, ed, grep, ls and it was quite
> usable
> modulo floppy disk speeds.
> 
> Clem
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
> > based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
> West
> > Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> >
> > I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
> MMU,
> > and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix
> had
> > "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the
> software
> > ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play
> "core
> > war" with itself?
> >
> > I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has
> been
> > previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for
> its
> > use in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
> >
> > Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that
> it
> > was a clone of some kind ... ?
> >
> > looking for a little history,
> >
> > Erik Fair
> >
>  



"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Wesley Parish]

FWIW, I've got a copy of "A Book on C" by RE Berry, BAE Meekings and MD Soren, which presents an 
extension of Small C called RatC, and with example translations from RatC to 8080 and VAX.

Did anyone use RatC for any major project?

Wesley Parish

Quoting Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>:

> Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain Damaged Software
> (BDS)
> and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C -
> http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely
> available -
> including the sources]. For years Leor's compiler was the de facto
> standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M and
> such
> systems. [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M community
> was
> using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of the language.
> Leor
> managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].
> 
> A couple of other folks (which I thought included Leor) had a UNIX-like
> system running on/with it that we showed to Dennis at first Boston
> USENIX
> in late the 1970s/early 1980s - that IIRC could take CP/M programs -
> [although they may have to been relinked]. My memory is that the system
> got sold/licensed to a firm on the west coast and marketed independently
> of
> BDS C, [you might ask Leor or maybe some like Phil Karn - i.e. any one
> that
> was doing both UNIX and CP/M in those days].
> 
> If forgotten the details, I do remember Dennis saying that it reminded
> him
> very much of early UNIX and was very impressed with job that had been
> done. The basic tools were there: sh, ed, grep, ls and it was quite
> usable
> modulo floppy disk speeds.
> 
> Clem
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
> > based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
> West
> > Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> >
> > I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
> MMU,
> > and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix
> had
> > "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the
> software
> > ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play
> "core
> > war" with itself?
> >
> > I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has
> been
> > previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for
> its
> > use in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
> >
> > Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that
> it
> > was a clone of some kind ... ?
> >
> > looking for a little history,
> >
> > Erik Fair
> >
>  



"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Michael Welle]

Hello,

"Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> writes:

> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx)
> based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
> West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.

as a side note: behind the iron curtain, in the GDR, they had Z80 based
system running Wega. But I doubt that they attended WCCF ;).

http://www.pofo.de/P8000/

Regards
hmw

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

On Saturday, 22 April 2017 at 17:13:00 -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 07:07:13AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can only repeat a remark
>> from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C
>> compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C."  My Z-80 C compiler
>> was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI.
>
> I've never heard of Hi-Tech C but I am apparently more forgiving.  I
> spent many happy hours using BDS C.  It wasn't exactly standard, the
> standard I/O library was far from compat, but whatever, it was a C
> compiler on a CP/M system.  Pretty pleasant.

Yes, I think this is a reasonable viewpoint.  It was my first ever C
environment, and I really recognized how non-standard it was when I
got a standard C compiler and had to rethink (and rewrite).

Am I correct in remembering that this was the compiler that Craig
Finseth used for MINCE, my first exposure to (also non-standard)
Emacs?

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
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[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Larry McVoy]

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 10:04:49AM +1000, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> On Saturday, 22 April 2017 at 17:13:00 -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 07:07:13AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> >> I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can only repeat a remark
> >> from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C
> >> compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C."  My Z-80 C compiler
> >> was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI.
> >
> > I've never heard of Hi-Tech C but I am apparently more forgiving.  I
> > spent many happy hours using BDS C.  It wasn't exactly standard, the
> > standard I/O library was far from compat, but whatever, it was a C
> > compiler on a CP/M system.  Pretty pleasant.
> 
> Yes, I think this is a reasonable viewpoint.  It was my first ever C
> environment, and I really recognized how non-standard it was when I
> got a standard C compiler and had to rethink (and rewrite).

Yeah, there were hiccups moving but it wasn't hard.

> Am I correct in remembering that this was the compiler that Craig
> Finseth used for MINCE, my first exposure to (also non-standard)
> Emacs?

No idea, never heard of MINCE.

[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Mutiny]

not to forget Sun UNIX 0.7 (Sun-1) From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)Sent: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:04:53To: tuhs at tuhs.orgCc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.eduSubject: Re: [TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix   > From: "Erik E. Fair"   > I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 .... based Unix, possibly v6   > ... I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an   > MMU, and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since   > Unix had "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the   > software ought to be relatively well-behavedI don't know about the Z80 part, but for the MMU aspect, recall that the firstcouple of versions of PDP-11 Unix ran on a model (the -11/20) which didn'thave an MMU (although, as mentioned before here, it apparently did later use athing called a KS11, the specifications for which seem to be mostly lost).A
 lthough recall the mention of calling out "a.out!", as to the hazards ofdoing so...And of course there was the 'Unix for an LSI-11' (LSX), although I gather thatwas somewhat lobotomized, as the OS and application has to fit into 56KBtotal.So it was possible to 'sorta kind-of' do Unix without an MMU.  Noel
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[TUHS] Zilog Z80 Unix

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: "Erik E. Fair"

    > I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 .... based Unix, possibly v6
    > ... I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
    > MMU, and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since
    > Unix had "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the
    > software ought to be relatively well-behaved

I don't know about the Z80 part, but for the MMU aspect, recall that the first
couple of versions of PDP-11 Unix ran on a model (the -11/20) which didn't
have an MMU (although, as mentioned before here, it apparently did later use a
thing called a KS11, the specifications for which seem to be mostly lost).
Although recall the mention of calling out "a.out!", as to the hazards of
doing so...

And of course there was the 'Unix for an LSI-11' (LSX), although I gather that
was somewhat lobotomized, as the OS and application has to fit into 56KB
total.

So it was possible to 'sorta kind-of' do Unix without an MMU.

   Noel